Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Now that I finally got the leeway to self-review my participation at the recent 2-Day Camp in Las Vegas... First off, in regards to TURN POINTS vs QUICK TURN - In Turn #11 (CCW), if I use the CSS-marked TP with my quick turn rate, I end up running wide in the turn; hence, need to momentarily pause my throttle roll on. What I did then was to move the TP point later into the corner - hence, able to trace a line following the TCR. However, my coach told me that we are not in the business of moving TPs, and it would be better to practice having better control on my Quick Turn. Essentially, for that Turn #11, I would require (1) lesser pressure on the bars as I do, and (2) lesser time that pressure is applied. It is in my understanding that there are no perfect lines, and TPs are not universal, as well... As such, to compensate for my Quick Turn Rate, shouldnt I be able to adjust my TP? In the interest of "Changing Lines," too, shouldnt I be able to adjust my TP? Are there any negatives to this? Is it recommended? Or not? Any thoughts? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Riders will choose different lines based on their own strengths and weaknesses, and the characteristics of their bike. As you say, there is no "ideal line" that is perfect for everyone. Here is a quote from Twist II: "The line that allows the throttle to be applied, exactly by the rule, is an ideal line." So, yes, it is certainly OK to change your turn point if the one you are using is causing you to violate the throttle control rule, which it sounds like it was, and you solved that problem in a reasonable way. BUT, you asked if there are any disadvantages to solving it that way, so let's think this out. If I understand you correctly, you were using a LATER turn point to correct an early apex due to quick turning the bike too much (leaning it over too far), hence the recommendation that you press less on the bar or for a shorter period. If that is wrong please correct me, but if that IS what is happening, here is a question: What is a possible DISADVANTAGE of using a later turn point and a more dramatic quick turn, versus using an earlier turn point and not turning the bike as much? (Let's assume your RATE of quick turn doesn't change, just the AMOUNT you turn the bike.) Does the lean angle change? How about the entry speed? (If it helps, think of an extreme example of a very late turnpoint, and what you would have to change to still make the turn.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Hhhhmmm... Disadvantages... 1. Uses more lean angle 2. Requires a very slow entry speed 3. Less choices for line changes (if required)? I guess it is balancing act (between the merits and demerits) then - essentially, as I would remember, there are 11 things that are influenced by where we turn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 best way is for the coach to record you doing the turn and going wide THEN another coach record your coach on how its done properly X/Y point comparison , and you will notice where you are weak at imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lnewqban Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 ..........if I use the CSS-marked TP with my quick turn rate, I end up running wide in the turn; hence, need to momentarily pause my throttle roll on. From TT2: "Turning it too quick will shake the bike or wind you up on the inside." Alfred, Is this what you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Do you recall what is being laid out in the current briefings on turn points, what are the 3 aspects of a good turn point? CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 From TT2: "Turning it too quick will shake the bike or wind you up on the inside." Alfred, Is this what you mean? Similar, but not quite. I am using the suggested TP by CSS (the tape marks on the pavement). However, if I use them I end up with an early apex leading to running wide. Hence, I moved my TP much later in the turn. However, based on the reply from Hotfoot, Im beginning to re-evaluate that decision... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) Do you recall what is being laid out in the current briefings on turn points, what are the 3 aspects of a good turn point? CF I did check my briefing notes Cobie, unfortunately, I dont have it written... I may have missed implicitly taking note of it... If I do jog my memory (and understanding): Allows me to follow the TCR Allows to straighten the corner as much as possible (??) Pre-selected exact location on the pavement Hhhmmm... It would be nice if you (or any of the coaches on the Forum) could refresh me on this... As I fill in notes in the flyer/pamphlet - one question I noted was "How to choose a good TP?" In the TOTW2 book, one guideline is indeed presented as it allows the TCR. Thanks! Edited March 2, 2013 by Alfred.Rodriguez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lnewqban Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Alfred, Is this what you mean? Similar, but not quite............... I referred to the attached schematics in my post that try to show the problem of early apex leading to running wide and what your solution of moving the turning point aft does. Did you see those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Alfred, Is this what you mean? Similar, but not quite............... I referred to the attached schematics in my post that try to show the problem of early apex leading to running wide and what your solution of moving the turning point aft does. Did you see those? Ah - saw only one diagram... Ooopppssss... Yes, it is quite like that... As I reflect on how Ive taken those turns - quick turn and a deeper angle meant having an early apex in spite of using the school's TP. As I review the TOTW2 book - the solution (which I guess my coach was also trying to say) - use LESS lean angle, hence, a shorter time pressure are applied on the bars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted March 4, 2013 Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 As I reflect on how Ive taken those turns - quick turn and a deeper angle meant having an early apex in spite of using the school's TP. As I review the TOTW2 book - the solution (which I guess my coach was also trying to say) - use LESS lean angle, hence, a shorter time pressure are applied on the bars. Well done, good job thinking that all through. So, does having more control over your quick turn give you an additional tool to solve the early apex problem you had in that turn? Can you think of situations where that might be useful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted March 4, 2013 Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 HI Alfred, First 2 are correct (for turn points), but one more is to turn the bike one time. Some times when doing the quick turn and getting an early apex, one has just turned it to much initially. Other times the turn point could be moved. As mentioned, no TP is perfect for all, but if it fits in with the 3 aspects of a good TP, it's a good one! CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 Well done, good job thinking that all through. So, does having more control over your quick turn give you an additional tool to solve the early apex problem you had in that turn? Can you think of situations where that might be useful? Hotfoot Thanks! Yes - indeed better control of my quick turn gives me an additional tool for more effective cornering. As for situations... Hhhmmm... With more control of my Quick Turn, - Require less lean angle for the turn leading to more traction/better drive out of the corner (faster) - More choices on my line, say, during passing manuevers - Better stability - very required when riding in the wet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 HI Alfred, First 2 are correct (for turn points), but one more is to turn the bike one time. Some times when doing the quick turn and getting an early apex, one has just turned it to much initially. Other times the turn point could be moved. As mentioned, no TP is perfect for all, but if it fits in with the 3 aspects of a good TP, it's a good one! CF Hi Cobie Thanks on that... Hence, said - this would be the same as the characteristics for a good line? 1. Follows the TCR 2. Straightens the corner as much as possible 3. Requires only one steering input Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 This tread is interesting as i didnt notice it before as i too have this " turn too quickly" + "later turn point" problem yesterday. The bike just feel destabilized and the rear wiggled a little when i used a later turn point and/or quicker flick guess its possible to overdo things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 This tread is interesting as i didnt notice it before as i too have this " turn too quickly" + "later turn point" problem yesterday. The bike just feel destabilized and the rear wiggled a little when i used a later turn point and/or quicker flick guess its possible to overdo things... As I read TOTW2 book now on my subway commute - Page #71 Turning it too quick will shake the bike or wind you up on the inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 There is too quckly, but if a rider tapered the input, would it still wiggle? Also, besides too quickly, how about too much? CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 There is too quckly, but if a rider tapered the input, would it still wiggle? Also, besides too quickly, how about too much? CF Hhhhm... Probably if the throttle input is very good - it wouldnt wiggle! (I guess that is the reason I wiggle a lot when I practice my quick turn in short Ses in parking lots) As per too much - to be honest, that is quite difficult to control (and something that I dont have much confidence in)... A rider could control "how much" by the amount of time the pressure to handle bars is applied. It is NOT straightforward as a car's steering wheel, ie., 60% CCW, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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