Leaderboard

Whew, this thread has gone all over creation and back since the original posted question, and the OP seems to have checked out. So, I'm going to jump in here. I am a CSS coach. First let me note that Yakaru is a very competent rider, fast, has come to many schools, and is very knowledgeable on the material. Now, on to some of the info that is in question. 1) When a rider is in a corner, if the throttle is APRUPTLY shut off, the bike will INITIALLY stand up a bit and run wide. Sudden loading of the front tire creates drag on the inside of the contact patch which tries to turn the wheel into the turn which makes the bike stand up. This is the same phenomena that occurs when you pull the front brake in the middle of a corner, that makes the bike stand up and run wide. THEN, once the bike recovers from the initial weight shift and begins to slow down, the arc will tighten due to the bike slowing down. There is a GREAT CG animation of this in A Twist of the Wrist II DVD. 2) Rolling on the gas does not, BY ITSELF, cause the bike change lean angle. You must countersteer to stand the bike up. However, as the bike speeds up, the radius of the arc changes (widens), which can give people the impression the bike is standing up - especially if they unconsciously STEER it up! It's a rare rider that knows and understands that it is ONLY the handlebars that steer the bike up (not the throttle), most riders have been doing unconsciously since the first day they rode. I hope this helps clarify these points.

This is a very broad question. The answer will depend on a variety of factors about the corner: radius (and whether it is increasing, decreasing, or staying the same), camber, surface (grip, bumps, etc.) so I am not sure what sort of answer you are hoping we can provide. If the radius of the corner is increasing, and the camber is either unchanging or getting more favorable, you should be able to accelerate through the corner, however if the radius is decreasing and/or the surface is going off-camber, you may have to be slower later in the corner instead of faster. A corner with a crest in it may, as you mentioned, lighten the bike as you go over it and may require a pause on the throttle to maintain traction. My recommendation would be get ahold of a copy of "The Soft Science of Road Racing Motorcycles" and have a look at Chapter 2, which includes info about how to sense traction for yourself, and Chapter 3, which talks about making a plan for how to ride a turn and how to adjust the plan to fine-tune it, and Chapters 9-10 that get into how to increase your speed through corners, and specific riding styles and how to make the best use of the strengths of your specific motorcycle and your own riding skills. There is a lot of information about how to handle certain types of turns, adjustments that can made to line or throttle and the effects those adjustments will have, and a ton of other information I am sure you will find very helpful.

A lot of this has to do with the specifics of the corner but for the general approach: - You usually want to shift the weight balance forward to change direction. Depending on the bike and corner this can vary from a pause in the roll on, a partial roll off, a complete roll off (preferably with intent, not just chopping the throttle), or application of the brakes. - Once on line you roll back on, moving the weight back, stabilizing the bike. Again depending on the corner and bike the nature of this can vary. There's a corner at one of my local tracks which, on a 250cc bike, I don't even roll off -- the lean needed is not high and the power of the bike is such that I can keep it pinned very safely within the bike and tire's limits. On the S1000RR then it depends on how I came to that section -- on a 'good lap' I need to roll off (though not brake), if my approach is slowed for whatever reason then instead I pause or perform a very mild roll off (very comparable to the "Double apex" throttle control described in TWOTW).

I'm pretty happy. Got to grow my trophy case a bit.

Being a mediocre rider with a history of more brawn than brains, I have had to stand the bike up to slow down before continuing at a reduced pace countless times. Sometimes from running out of cornering clearance, sometimes just running out of courage. I have never planned for it or practiced it, it's just a result of my SR.

I'll pass on that feedback, it might make sense to resurrect that forum section. From participating in some other forums I DO understand the questions/concerns that arise when you don't know the sources of the information you get. This particular thread covered a whole lot of ground in a short amount of time, and got confusing, but from what I saw most of what was said was correct in one way or another, just incomplete or stated in a way that was not absolutely clear. Perfect example is the question of what happens when you roll off the throttle in a turn - one person said the bike stands up and runs wide and another said that the arc tightens. And BOTH of those things can, and do, happen! With an abrupt roll off the effect of the bike standing up and running wide is much more dramatic and noticeable, and a rider who chops the throttle or grabs the front brake will experience that, and might be mystified as to why it happened, when he (theoretically) expected the arc to just tighten. However a more seasoned rider who backs off the gas very gradually would feel something quite different - the effect still occurs but the weight shift is so much less and the drag on the rear tire nowhere near as intense so THAT rider may not notice the 'standing up/running wide' effect at all unless they are very attuned to it, it will come and go very quickly and then the bike will begin to tighten its arc as it slows down. Anyway, the point is: as long as we keep our manners in we can learn a lot from all the questions and viewpoints that arise here, and sometimes something that seems simple or obvious turns out to have some ins and outs that are fascinating when explored from different angles.

Personally, I prefer a softer carcass and a more rounded profile for the tire. That's partly because I am a smaller rider and most bike's suspensions are too stiff for me anyway so the softer tire helps absorb some of that, but it is also because I like to feel the tire react - I like to feel the tire "set" in the corner, and feel it compress under acceleration. I do not like to feel rigidity or vibrations, or feel like the tire isn't reacting or won't compress, that sort of feedback tends to make me feel like the tire is cold or has too much air pressure and won't have adequate grip, so I am more tentative and don't load it enough for it to really work well. If I am SURE it is OK - like on warmed up Dunlop GPA tires, which have amazing grip, then I can push through that mental barrier and can appreciate the stability of the stiffer carcass under very hard braking and acceleration. But I prefer to ride with a smoother style so I don't miss it if the stiffness/stability is not there, I rarely brake/accelerate with that extreme force unless I am following someone who DOES ride with that sort of style and get (sort of) forced into it. What is it that makes you say "how soft MotoGP tires are"? Are you saying that because Michelins have a reputation for being softer than some others, or is that something that was said or written or published somewhere, that current MotoGP tire carcasses are softer right now than in the past?

Couldn't get the above video to play so here is a link to it on YouTube: Rea 1 Lap 6 Places Magny-Cours 2018 There is also a brief WSBK video of Rea bolting from 8th to 1st in five corners at the TT Assen circuit last April. His move from 8th to 3rd by the first corner is very impressive. This Assen video allows you to see him in context of the pack. What strikes me about his riding are three things: he is incredibly smooth, precise and takes racing lines that do an excellent job of setting up his passes. Here is the link: Rea 8th to 1st Dutch Round I searched for video footage of the 1977 AMA Grand National Championship round at Sears Point where Kenny Robert's famously went from last to first in four laps. I could not find it, but I did find a wonderful video of the 1979 Silverstone round showing highlights of Robert's battle with Barry Sheene. As you would imagine the video quality is poor given the era but the racing is marvelous nonetheless. It is six minutes in length. Enjoy. 1979 Silverstone - Kenny Roberts versus Barry Sheene As to Jaybird 180's questions … "Is this possible with consumer level tires?" Consumer tires is a broad term. There are lots of track tires the average consumer can purchase include race slicks. But if by "consumer level" you mean typical street tires then no, not compared to track focused tires. "Is there some type of electronic gadgetry at play here?" Absolutely. WSBK and MotoGP bikes use sensors, software and ECUs to the fullest advantage possible. But great riding and winning still comes down to the skills of the racer. "Or maybe I can get on the gas harder on corner exits?" Speaking for myself - almost always! Dave

From the 1:02 to 2:28 is the part of interest (hope the time stamp made it over) for the topic. I do know my own preference to the point that I find one end of the spectrum ruining and the other end bliss. More specific on how to test a tire's construction

For me it's a slight safety factor...I want to be able to move quickly if I need to. Good visual skills trump all for street safety, it wouldn't keep me from riding a small bike..being lazy might :).

Yes, SO looking forward to not riding a desk for a while :).

If the speed was high and the line was bad, and you had pavement left to use, could you stand the bike up, brake hard, then steer the bike again? Could you, at that new, significantly reduced speed (because you had applied brakes hard) now turn the bike in a sharper arc than you could have achieved at the higher speed, where you might have run out of traction or ground clearance? Clearly I am talking about a relatively extreme example, but could you, if needed, handle the problem that way? As far as "maintenance throttle" as a term, I just wanted to clarify your interpretation. It is not a term we use at the school; that phrase can generate confusion because some people use it to mean "enough throttle to maintain speed (through the corner)" and others use it to mean "hold the throttle where it is" i.e. not rolling on and also not decreasing it, and those are two different things. (There may be more definitions than just those two, but I hear those two fairly often.)

At one time (not too long ago) we had a section that was a "questions for coaches" area, where a user could ask a question to be answered only by coaches, not necessarily open to general discussions from others. If we had a section like that again, would that resolve your concerns about the board being "cliquey" or "too green"? Our intention is to be a friendly forum that is open to riders of all levels, where riders of all types can feel comfortable asking questions in a positive, helpful, and ad-free environment.

Correct, given a constant lean angle, speed and radius are related so as the speed comes up the radius of the turn gets wider. And yes, to maintain the SAME arc at a higher speed you would have to have a greater lean angle. This can be a source of crashes for novice riders, if a rider turns in early, ends up running wide, and has to lean it over farther to stay on line, they can end up adding throttle and lean angle simultaneously which can overload the rear tire and potentially cause a crash. If a rider ends up running wide at the end of a corner and has to steer the bike again to stay on the track, what SHOULD the rider do with the throttle during that steering correction?

I have a Ninja 300 for the street (running Perelli sport demons), track & race wise I have another Ninja 300, S1000RR, and an HP4R, mostly on Dunlops.

I think we need to clarify whether we are talking about "weighting" the outside peg or talking about PRESSING on the peg. Pressing down on the peg with your muscles to force you knee up into/against the tank can improve your lock on and that is a nice benefit. Using the outside lower leg as a strength base for pivot steering is not weighting the peg, it is using the peg as the most stable pivot point. (Just standing on the peg doesn't work for pivot steering because that is not the same as locking your lower leg to the bike.) If a rider senses an improvement in the bike's handling from peg pressure/weight, it is most likely because they are in reality locked on better OR have changed their body position to being lighter in the seat over bumps OR have changed the location of their Center Of Mass (I.e., hanging off more to the inside) but these are secondary effects and NOT produced by just putting more weight on a peg. For chicanes and fast transitions, pivot steering is an excellent technique to be able to steer more decisively and strongly and get the bike over faster. Putting weight on the pegs during a transition will lighten your weight in the seat which allows you to slide your hips over more easily and quickly and that ALSO can quicken the transition. This can be used in conjunction with other body position techniques that we teach in Level 3.

Something I've heard before is that with the Pirelli's you're "being held up by the hand of god... until you aren't." I love my sport-touring Pirellis though, I'll say that, but very different use case.

Don't really need a NO-BS-Bike to proof the point. Had to buy some catlitter last week, car was not available, cat got impatient, so I took my fireblade to get some... anyway.. I put this big bag on the tank, it turned out that I could only just about reach the handlebars, so on my way home I could only countersteer by conciously leaning forward pushing one handlebar at a time, just by shifting my weight the bike kept going almost straight ahead, at least I would have never made it around any corners, even in slow traffic.

Correct. My last race, before the lock down, was actually with CSS. Edit to expand: I'll admit I'm a newer racer, but I'm a physics simulation programmer and I gave the equation and explanation for why. Honestly that should have way more credit than any race experience. I also, as I said, invite you to try it. The lean bike at CSS is an excellent example, as is the parking lot. Racing experience is fine and good but CSS mentions many times how many pro-racers they have who don't know they counter steer or other basics.

Racer, I've been riding for 10 years and have been a track rider the whole time. Also a bit, uh, unkosher? to do this perhaps but this is well documented. Here's YCRS covering it. Nick's bio: https://ridelikeachampion.com/teams/nick-ienatsch/ (He has a pair of AMA #1 plates on the wall and deep ties from 35 years in the motorcycle industry.) I've read his book and will say he has incorrect information in it (peg weighting) but on this he's dead on.

First off, think about hairpins -- why do you slow for them if this isn't true? Second off, while this isn't a 'straight' comparison, I believe (part of the equation involves the forward tracking of the bike which means it would be the same at any speed) you are going to have a few reasons: 1. You are going to hit your lean angle sooner in the corner, as the counter steering force will get you there while covering less distance 2. The way counter steering works is you are balancing the centripetal to the centrifugal force excellent video here: The centripetal ('center-seeking') acceleration is the motion inwards towards the center of a circle. The acceleration is equal to the square of the velocity times mass divided by the radius of the circular path. (the mass is why light bikes steer more easily!) F = mv²/r is the equation. Since you must balance the centripetal with the centrifugal that means you must hold the force constant. If v goes up you must also increase r.

If we get you out, or even if you are near us and can come and ride it, let me know, we can squeeze that in, takes about 10 min. I knew the theory, but my first test drive was in front of our shop, so I took a spin on it (full squid mode of course). Nearly hit a parked car!! Gotta ride it to believe it. Any data on the test drive above is protected by the squid clause.

If/when we get you guys to a school, and if you haven't ridden it, ride the NO B/S bike. It really has to be ridden to get the full experience, no amount of talking seems to take the place of this training aide.

Back to the point of the bike running wide when it slows: if the rider is rolling on the throttle, then rolls off, it will run wide initially. Good discussion here.

Heh, opposite myth -- speeding up won't make the bike want to stand up. It will widen the turn but go out in a parking lot and just spin circles and roll on, careful not to steer. Your circles will widen but the bike won't stand -- slow back down and your radius will reestablish itself.

I will at least voice a few, though Cobie is of course welcome to tell me if I'm full of it. I'll also ask forgiveness for not following the 'helping think through it' instruction style of the school, given that I believe you've never attended and thus might not have the previous instruction that helps with that method. "1. Increase the lean angle through more aggressive counter-steering - if traction is available for that (as mentioned above by Spinto)" I have concerns about how you explained this -- once you're at lean you stop counter steering, the bike maintains the line. If you need to tighten it then you can counter steer more, though there's concerns here (e.g. rolling on and adding lean is a quick way to crash). The term "aggressive" is a flag for me -- while there are advantages to a decisive countersteer input you don't want to be 'stabby' about it and if you're already at lean I might back down my rate in order to 'listen' to the bike better. "2. RPMs (maintain or increase because slowing makes the bike stand up)" I'm really curious why you feel this is the case. While a sudden chop of the throttle will send you even wider, a slow roll off won't (see the double apex mention in the Twist film, if you have access). In fact, it is usually the opposite -- why do you slow way more for a hairpin? To quote another school "Speed equals radius" (at a given lean angle, bp, etc.) "5. Peg pressure (in conjunction with weight shift to amplify/stabilize a pivot steering point)" your mention of pivot here is throwing me, as usually I think of pivot steering as having my weight 'cross body' (balance my left hand to my right peg) for "strength with stability" in fast steering situations (especially to overcome momentum effects at higher bike speeds) whereas most people who talk about peg weighting discuss it in regards to weighting the inside peg. The fact of the matter is that "weighting" the inside peg really doesn't do anything. The majority of what you notice if you've ever tried it is usually more the shift of body weight which is far more effectively done by moving the upper body to the inside of the bike. Since you're on the bike you're fighting physics -- for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. The forces you're putting into the peg just act back upon you and you're effectively in a closed system due to the tires not really taking the load (since overall it's the same) and inputting them into the road (since Earth IS a separate system). Check this out:

There's a whole bunch of wrong in this posting.......Cobie...could you chime in..please!!

I am talking about the flexibility of the carcass.

When you say 'how soft MotoGP tires are', are you talking about the stiffness/flexibility of the carcass, or the softness/stickiness of the rubber compound? (I have not yet watched the videos you posted so excuse me if the question was somehow answered by those.)

The Constitution is my guidance & friend. Power possessed politicians? Not so much... Riding from Pensacola to Camden, AL today - AL hwy 41 is called the "Baby Dragon" or "Southern Dragon" - we'll see....

A man after my own heart, good for you! (in breaking jackass edicts...oops, I did print that didn't I, it wasn't my inner voice?).

Hey guys! I got the email that Barbers is a "GO!" I'll be rolling into the track infield in the trailer Saturday or Sunday and leaving Friday or Saturday. So, if anyone see this rig and this bike, please don't hesitate to pound on the hatch! I'll have good chow and better libations. Cheers, Steve

Just heard on the radio this morning that the Alabama governor will not be extending the stay at home rule, past early May.

We are shooting for Barber, which is May 23-29. It's mostly booked up but there are about 10% seats available.

This video is very interesting (prolly partly because it goes along with my own non-scientific view 😜 but see for yourself)

Fresh out of CSS it is only reasonable that I was working on riding skills while commuting to work on my bike. Visual skills in particular, with emphasis in picking turn in points, pre-apex, end points. Thinking 'big picture' and then picking points on the road surface. Great idea, but this was not a track, it was a road. When I was a kid we were taught defensive driving. My instructor would do stuff like slap the rear view mirror out of alignment and then ask you how many cars were behind you, what color? Gaining or falling back? The same questions about who was ahead. Watching for brake lights five cars up. Is the road wet or dry? Are there leaves down? What was last night's weather like? My favorite was being asked to imagine you are a bird 200' above the car. Can you hold a mental image of where you are and what is around you, and who is on the road with you? In the military they train Situational Awareness, or SA. It's similar, but basically requires you to learn to assess and consider what and who is around you at all times. It's not easy to do, but it's surprisingly informative if you work at it. So, there I was on my commute, carving corners and focused on the road surface, and I passed a deer on the shoulder doing around 70. Me, not the deer. And I had to shock myself back to reality. Yes, big picture on turns and lines is important, but out on a domestic roadway, the even bigger picture focus on your local environment is much more likely to keep you upright and healthy. This was, I think, an untended consequence of the CSS experience, and I only post it here for your consideration as a reminder to stay in the 'here and now' of your daily riding. Rob-