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  1. 2 points
    It definitely can be done (sliding an S1000rr in a controlled fashion) and you can watch high level racing and see it happen. The school also has an off-track tool called the Slide Bike that can be used by more advanced riders to find our what it feels like to slide the rear tire. (And, for that matter, there is the Brake Bike that can be used to find out how it feels to slide and recover the front, in a straight line on the brakes.) One thing to consider is that the tires are ALWAYS sliding, to some degree, it is a built in part of how they work. In any corner the tires are always scrubbing off some rubber. Yes Q3s will slide and it can be controlled, but technique must be good. What is tough to recover is a very sudden, abrupt slide, where the tires move sideways fast and then when they regain grip the slide is halted abruptly - such as a situation where there is a patch of oil on the road (in a corner) and the tires slide fast and then catch abruptly on good pavement on the other side. Another example would be a rider that leans the bike way over into a corner, then whacks the throttle on abruptly, delivering way too much power to the rear tire and initiating a slide at a steep lean angle, THEN gets scared and shuts the throttle off abruptly. The rear tire suddenly regains traction which stops the slide and the sideways momentum can make the bike rotate over into a highside. (Traction control on newer bikes helps prevent some of those too-much-throttle situations, delivering less power to the rear wheel at steep lean angles.) Those types of highsides are probably what the "slip, grip, and flip" comments are referring to, but those can be prevented with good throttle control and knowledge of how to manage rear tire grip, and we have a variety of classroom sessions and drills at the school that cover those topics.
  2. 2 points
  3. 2 points
    I love it when topics get resurrected, and especially when I have just discovered the technique, literally yesterday...it forces me to relate my newfound exuberance not only to the "what" but also the "why." I am not a proud author and I am seriously interested in all responders. Why? Because if what I know to be true as outlined below proves false - I need to know ASAP. First, kudos to the CSS Coaches who asked the poignant question and provided the illustrative example: i.e. Cobie's 'stirring the pot' getting the topic back on track, "Does it matter which peg is weighted?" and then HotFoot's barbell example. Nice tag team. The OP's question was "Why weight the outside peg vice the inside?" and then we got into locking the body, Newton's Laws and "vector mathematics." We do "things" on the bike - perform techniques - to aid our riding. So I reckon the better question might be what are the advantages to weighting the outside peg over the inside peg? 1. Many of you have written it helps you 'lock-on' to the bike with less fatigue than other techniques. 2. Others have written that it helps focus major muscle groups in the steering process - as per TOTW2, Keith mentions it is like 'power steering' yielding less fatigue. Also Keith tells us in TOTW2 that "pushing under the bike" is not a good technique for asphalt based motorcycles. 3. Others have advocated that it only serves to 'pickup the bike' upon the exit. 4. My experience from a one-day experimentation over 5 hours and 300 miles is that in the great "ballroom dance" that is elegance & finesse motorcycle riding, I am in a much better position to lead the bike around the dance floor when my "touch points" on my girl are correct AND effective. Those are 3 GREAT reasons (4 if you count mine) to weight the outside peg! Are there ANY disadvantages? I haven't read about one or personally found one yet. The comment about riders who are "inseam challenged" and lift their foot off the outside peg yet still win races doesn't mean this is a bad or overrated technique at all - just that it doesn't have to be used to win races. Of course, being the dedicated riders we are, always wanting to learn more about riding, the why is always what matters - because that is how we remember to do things. It's great to discuss the Center of Mass (CM) and Center of Gravity (CG), but what seems to be missing from most of the posters' train of thought is the "moment of torque" surrounding the application point relative to the CM on the bike - hence HotFoot's outstandingly simple barbell example. What is at play here is the delta between gravity operating on the Center of Mass, and the torque - or 'moment arm' - acting on the bike around the bike's CM due to pressure applied anywhere other than the CM. To calculate this moment arm, or torque, I present the formula t=rFsin(α) where r is the radius distance from the CM, F is the actual Force and α is the angle of r. So, if Keith weighs 180 pounds (full gear & the math is easier), and he is applying only 2/3 of his weight - I think I'm being conservative here - to the outside peg in a 45 degree angle turn, and the peg is 10" from bike centerline, that gives us t=10*120*.707 = 848.5 in-lbs (70 ft-lbs) of torque on that motorcycle frame. With 250cc bikes going around 350-400lbs wet, that torque is almost 20% of the weight (remember most of the rider doesn't count because he's causing the moment.) That is not insignificant. There's definitely SOMETHING happening there. When a rider is "hanging off" - are they actually hanging their weight? If so, on what part of the bike? One poster wrote that the pros shift their weight 20 times in a turn - while 'hanging off.' That's a lot of shifting. In TOTW2, Keith was using the outside peg as his "pivot point" - where his weight was focused. I'll bet money he was 'hanging off' as well, but keeping his weight pushed to his outside foot - no small physical task. And that he was on a 250cc bike tells me there wasn't a lot of relative bike mass for him to overcome - yes there were centripetal and centrifugal forces from the wheels, but when he applied his weight to the outside peg, it definitely mattered to the bike. The other significant point made in TOTW2 is that when pressing on that outside (or inside peg) the bike "feels" your body mass MUCH nearer its own CM and that makes the bike happy and stable, regardless of the angle. Adventure guys and Trials guys stand on their pegs - why? It lowers the perceived CM for the bike and is more stable. When we 'flick' our bikes over, we WANT instant instability, followed by complete stability while in the turn...make one good steering input, hold it there with your "criss-cross-torso-pressure-system," and you get to enjoy the turn. So, in summary... Yes the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, and it actually makes mathematical sense, so yes, Coach Cobie, it DOES matter. Thanks for reading. I'm looking forward to May at Baker Motorsports. Cheers, Steve
  4. 1 point
    I just attended the two day camp (level 1 and 2) at Willow Springs, which was phenomenal. I was amazed at how much faster I got in two days. A question about trail braking: In class, we looked at a graph of racers' braking timing. In the graph, the onset of braking to peak pressure was very fast, almost instantaneous, and the release (if I recall correctly) was about two seconds long. For the technique, I believe we were told to brake, and then release braking gradually as we leaned the bike and got in on line (so the forks only compress once, first for the braking, which trades off for the compression of the turn). Of course once the bike is leaned and online, we roll on the throttle, smoothly, evenly and constantly, and I think we were told that there is no overlap in brake release and throttle roll on. But with the quick turn technique, it would seem that getting the bike online is completed in less than 2 seconds. I could be underestimating the time it takes to lean the bike and get it fully online, and I know they qualified this technique as 'when appropriate', so maybe it only applies to corners which would require about 2 seconds to get online? If any coaches or students can provide clarification, I'd appreciate it!
  5. 1 point
    Been there, done that. In 1990, I had a CB1100F, the most stable and predictable bike I have ridden. Which was an anomaly for these bikes, as they typically loved to wobble and weave dangerously. Anyway, I soon grew over-confident well above my personal ability, and going around a bend doing about 55 mph, peg and stands scraping, I gave it full throttle in 2nd gear. Unsurprisingly, the rear stepped out to more and less full lock. I shut the throttle, tire bit, suspension compressed and released, catapulting me into the air as the bike began to come back in line. I managed to hang onto the bars, fully upside-down, bike going over the center and back a few times. By shear luck, the seat was right underneath my bum when I came down, allowing me to continue unhurt. That made me do what I had been thinking about for quite some time already; sell it before I hurt somebody. Most likely me.
  6. 1 point
    Yes for me, I have done a few of the schools that are done on small dirt bikes that aim to increase comfort level with sliding around. Those schools did a lot of improve my dirt riding skills, and probably would help me a lot of I ever had to do an "off-track excursion" on a sportbike. It did help me a little in getting comfortable with rear tire sliding on a sportbike but I am still not very brave in that area, I much prefer for the bike to feel planted under me. I'd like to do more dirt bike riding and sliding, I am sure it helps to gain more understanding of how to handle a bike overall. For SURE it would help with condition, it is quite a workout!!
  7. 1 point
    I try. That's about all I can answer with. I think riding in the dirt is extremely useful for learning to feel how the bike moves around. It has showed me what the rear stepping out feels like and to feel how the rear comes around when you're on the gas. To an extent, it has helped with my front end feel, as you will feel front end slides. The biggest benefit is that you can crash without a hefty repair bill. Basically, you can push past the limit, pick up the bike, dust yourself off, and continue learning. If you're in the US, you have a number of instruction options including Rich Oliver's Mystery School, Cornerspin, and SoCal Supermoto. In all honesty, as a not-fast rider, riding in the dirt has helped me quite a bit but it isn't a total panacea. I definitely have not gotten past the ride "wheels-in-line" phase on the track bike. And I still need a lot of work on learning to feel feedback from the front end in terms of how far I can push in non-optimal conditions. Almost all of my track crashes have been tucking the front end in cold/wet conditions. And as Cobie and Tim can attest to, it took me a while on the slide bike to even get it barely moving. I attribute this more to a mental block in my head--about the heavier and more expensive to repair track bike--than anything else though. But in summation, yes, I highly recommend riding in the dirt.
  8. 1 point
    No patent, patents are a PITA. All they really give you is the right to hire a lawyer to defend your patent. Kind of cynical 🙂 It's just an idea I've had for many years. A good coach can help adjust a rider to their bike which mostly means doing the best with what you have and what you can adjust. I spent two days with Joe Roberts last Fall playing around with foot peg positions, one day in the garage and one day at the track. In the end, pretty much everyone has to deal with some degree of compromise. There are some basic drills we've developed to find optimum seating position and peg placement. It's very interesting how some very subtle changes can make a huge difference in rider comfort and stability.
  9. 1 point
    The office is working with all on this, and are being quite understanding, just contact them.
  10. 1 point
    A double apex corner typically does require either going flat on the throttle or some roll off. How MUCH you'd have to roll off would depend on the shape of the corner (how much it tightens up) but ALSO on your entry speed and how much you rolled ON in the first part of the corner. If your roll-on in the first part of the corner was very gentle or your entry speed was low, you might not need to roll off in the middle to make it to the second apex. If you entered a double apex corner, rolled on the throttle continuously throughout the corner but ended up running wide later in the corner and unable to make the second apex, what would you want to do with the throttle in the middle of the corner (on the next lap) to correct that line?
  11. 1 point
    Semper Fi! Concur on the coaching conclusion. Cheers!
  12. 1 point
    Hmmm, I would think that I can visualize being in the situation where I need to activate my anti-fixate antidote without engraining the judgement error that got me there You would know better than most the value of chair flying!
  13. 1 point
    The brain is not typically wired to be bothered with words like "don't" and for most will only react to "fixate". If your kid has ice cream running down the chin and you tell the kid "do not look down", the child will definitely look down. If you instead say "look up", you can wipe the chin before the kid ruin the shirt.
  14. 1 point
    Wes, Steve here - I noticed that no MSF (non-CSS) coaches answered up here. You wrote also that this might be a topic for MSF so I'm going to offer my $0.02 I realize I'm resurrecting a thread, and I'm admittedly new to the sportbike game, 2 months and 2500 miles on a K1200S. What got me there is that I'm signed up for CSS in May so I have been reading these forums in earnest. However, I have been an MSF coach for over 13 years with over half a million miles on several bikes. Whenever I am approaching a new corner, at speed or otherwise, I still tell myself "Slow, Look, Press, Roll." The newer conceptual verbiage is "Search, Setup, Smooth." At speed I tend to think it faster then our students on the range do. Or at least I'm hoping I do. One thing I ensure to tell the students is something you've all heard before, and I'm pretty sure I read it in this thread and that is "look where you want the bike to go." Okay, we all got that, but the timing is the important part. So what I tell the students is to "look where you want to go, and THEN make the bike go there." I find that the natural delay between the look and the steering input (at the novice level) sets them up for success down the road. The caveat here is that "the bike does NOT necessarily go where you look." It doesn't have to. Look ahead before arriving at your turn point. Once the rider is mentally assured about actually getting to the turn point, then he is to look to the apex, pause to arrive at the TP and begin the steering input. But the key (as HotFoot mentioned) is looking to the apex sooner to alleviate the speed sensation, and using 'wide-angle' viewing to monitor the turn point arrival then perform steering. Get the nose pointed in the correct direction and finish the smooth roll on. I hope this helps. Cheers! Edit: I am also a pilot, USMC helos for 21 years. I concur with your analogies to "Emergency Procedures", muscle memory, and effective SR avoidance through practice and simulation.
  15. 1 point
    Following this thread - looking for answers as well. From 2 perspectives: First, not necessarily from a 'racing' perspective, but in general, what can be done to assist all the northern riders who haven't ridden in 3-6 months, who then change the oil in their bikes in February and then trailer them to Daytona in March and get on them for the first time with 30,000 of their closest friends? Second: when I coached in Philly, as soon as the weather broke, I would ride to the MSF range and work on my short game and riding demos, not expecting anything epic, knowing it was going to be a "work in progress." 4 sessions & about 8 riding hours later, I was ready to coach again. However, this racing thing is new to me, but since I'm probably not going to get to the track that often, regardless of weather, there is still going to be rust that needs busting in between track days. Cheers, Steve
  16. 1 point
    So I did Vegas with CSS last October and then this Feb. My laptimes by the end of the second day were ~5 seconds slower than my laptimes on the second day last year. Since I'm intending to start racing this year I thought that was definitely a notable drop, though obviously I will likely recover the time very quickly if I were to go again after getting some more track days in this year to knock the rust off. What I thought I'd ask is, especially for anyone who's in a place without a full year riding climate, how you prevent that kind of rust from building up, or shake it off as quickly as possible?
  17. 1 point
    That made my morning! Because I've read some your posts in other threads - I am doubting the "old & slow" stuff however...
  18. 1 point
    That helped a lot for an old and slow man 👌
  19. 1 point
    Thank you, sir! (I think - lol) The bottom line was that there seemed to be no disadvantage to weighting the outside peg and there was some math to imply that from a physics perspective, it does add stability. Cheers, Steve
  20. 1 point
    I enjoyed the read. Not sure it really made me any wiser, but it was a good read nonetheless - you are good with words 👍
  21. 1 point
    I have been told that weighting, or rather pressing down on the outside peg allows you to corner faster and safer, as it encourages you to put your head and shoulder weight, and not your butt, inside the turn (aka: kissing the mirrors), which requires less lean angle in a given turn/curve. (Your upper body weight leaning into the turn replaces some of the bikes weight it would use in the lean, requiring less lean angle on the bike) Ive taken turns where it seems the bike stays almost upright, and I'm able to hug the inside line nicely in the apex of long curves. It helps as well as it puts an outside downward force to the rear tire for stability/traction. I havent been riding a long time, but I have been testing taking turns in this fashion, and it definitely seems to help me.
  22. 1 point
    Your collection of data and research shows you are barking up the right trees. Here's some more data regarding tires: Per the Dunlop engineers tires grip in 4 ways: 1) Adhesion--the temporary chemical bond between the tire and surface. 2) Keying--the tire deforming and filling in all the nooks and crannies of the asphalt or squishing into the depressions. 3) Abrasion--the tire tearing from itself or wearing away. 4) Hysteresis--the energy storage and return by the rubber and partial conversion to heat. The first two can be looked at as static properties and the last two dynamic properties in my opinion. I'm still learning on all this stuff and when talking to the tire engineers, they don't have all the answers either. Heck, aviation engineers still can't all agree on exactly how a plane flies through the air!
  23. 1 point
    Glad you found that info helpful, but I do want to clarify a bit - it is not the fact that I have to brake hard that tells me I'm target-fixed - it is the feeling of being COMPELLED to brake, instead of consciously deciding where, when and how much to brake. Have you ever had that feeling that you know you should let off the brake but you are afraid to? Or the 'Oh crap' feeling that makes you want to grab at the brake? Compare that to a familiar corner on a track where you know exactly where and how much you want to brake, and how THAT feels. It is the feeling of compulsion that tells me I have encountered an SR, and I use that sensation as an instant reminder to look in to the apex (or expand my vision with wideview). It has become an nearly immediate reaction now, due to practice. I know you specifically were looking for solutions to surprises on unfamiliar corners, but I have to echo Cobie's sentiments above, on controlling the environment. I totally agree about not riding fast on the street, and I don't do canyon rides anymore. Group rides, especially, were always nerve-wracking for me, once I started riding on the track I stopped riding on the street, it is just so much nicer not having cars on one side and cliffs on the other.
  24. 1 point
    Hi Pitts, I follow you on all the points above...it's a big subject (the visual skills, and what cause problems with being able to continually keep them working well for you). I"m just going to touch on this with a few comments. I'd say one element in keeping one from target fixing, is familiarity with the environment. Is one less likely to have target fixation on a road/track that is known well? Another will be controlling that environment, at a suitable speed for each person. Some can handle a quicker rate of this than others. Then gradually increasing that speed. Some just go too fast on the street for what I consider a speed that allows for enough margin for error. I just don't go fast on the street any more (had a few close calls, don't care for that). Lastly, what condition is the person in physically at that time? Well fed, well rested, not dehydrated, etc., can have a huge effect on a person's mental state. And the mind is a whole other subject! This are all pretty big stabs at this, so I might just be opening can here :). Best, Cobie
  25. 1 point
    To answer your question above, yes I do sometimes still catch myself getting target fixed when I enter an unfamiliar corner and think I've come in too fast. My personal solution is that I've trained myself that, whenever I feel compelled to pull the brake (as opposed to doing it in a controlled and conscious way), I look in to the apex. I've associated that feeling of "needing" to brake with being target fixed so now as soon as I feel that desire to pull the brake, I look to the inside to get my eyes moving the right direction.
  26. 1 point
    We had an exercise we had run at our military schools: Rider approaches a set of lights, one set on each side. As he goes through a trip light (while looking ahead at a radar board indicating his speed), one light goes off on one side, and he learns to steer the OPPOSITE direction. This was quite an exercise and would be performed at higher and higher speeds. Riders would make up their minds before they got there and often turn in the wrong direction (towards the light). This would train them to hold a wide view visually, not pre-decide which way to go, react and also turn quickly. This was the culminating exercise in an intense 2 day program...often took a little while to gradually get riders to do this at higher and higher speeds. Valuable exercise! CF
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