jrfuisz

At track days and at CSS I had the toe issue. Misti was my coach that day and we had lots of chats about toes vs. knees. I was told to keep my foot as far in as possible, which I still find hard at times but wouldn't you know it that next TD my knee touched down with the toe slider. It is not shortly thereafter that my knee was not down at will and yes my foot was always shortly thereafter. If I could figure out how to post a picture I would. Moving the toe on to the peg a bit more and getting the body down (chin near the edge fo the screen) and what do you know. BUT and this is a big but I'm also lazing on the gas and what I discovered is that being lazy on gthe gas makes it easier to ride the knee aroudn a corner. You want to show off for the camre just be lazy. Last TD when I worked on getting on the gas as early as possible I could stand the bike up and touching down became harder and harder. Hit the apex, get on the gas and stand the bike up - no knee down. If I was lazy, I could drag stuff all the way round the track. If I got on it though, a brief touch down was all that was in order. Anyway, long and short, if you can touch down your toes it is just a question of finding the right corner to drag something else - assumig you are not haging them off the end of the pegs. Your knee will follow, but the reality is your inability to get the knee down may mean you are doing something right. Side note - my last TD post LVL 4 I was in a left hander that followed a straight and a rider split myself and bike in front I was tradign places with. The rider had a slooowww turn in and was clearly getting dragged wide in the turn. She was sliding out of my vision and I knew it was bad. Using my CSS skill I hooked the turn and went for max lean - brake lever started to drag - to get to the inside of the turn and give the rider who was in the shizzle as much track as possible. They never made it (crashed - but were Ok to ride again that day). I did get to the inside of the turn aware that I was at the limit and knew I had knee, foot and brake lever on the ground. CSS paid off big time that corner. Now if I can figure out how to post a picture I'll get you one of knee and toes sliding - a la Misti.

Paid for my photos and haven't received anything. Trying to find my receipt to find out who to call but am having a slight problem locating it.

North (same as the Big Kahuna AMA race) if they use the same as last year - and I suspect they do.

I'm interested in a response as well. I will say having done Lvl I and II. I wish my memory was better, but you'll forgive what age has done to me. I've used this approach to break down the corner entry into discrete steps. No point to do them all at once and screw up until I can do them well serially. Especially at the end of a long straight, I find the turn in point I'm going to use, I get off the gas (which is technically braking), then move the body, then hit the brakes, then two-step, off the brakes right before the turn in (brakes are heavy then progressively lighter), on the gas, and off I go into the turning steps. I've done the slow-mo on some MotoGP and AMA races and find that sometimes you'll see a similar progression and then other times not. I think there is a track (turn to turn function) that comes into play. If you are dealing in a compressed environment to begin with at some speed you don't have the luxury of that much extra time to force the serial application of the turn in steps. If you don't get the body position early - pre-braking - when are you going to do it? Under braking? I can hold back the mass of flesh with my legs so as not to introduce unwanted forces into the steering without getting my legs wedged into the tank. No different than moving after rolling off the gas in a way. Which means, I'm not moving under braking unless the braking is mild enough to let me move the mass over. If you also assume that braking should be harder at the biginning and lighter as you hit the turn in point, then you have the option of moving under heavy braking or light, but light is right before the turn in, which IMHO not a great time to start messing with the way the bike is weighted.

A question I was going to hold until my Lvl 3 class, but I bought a new bike and it is buging me. So I'm always trying to hold the bars like eggs. Which means while braking I'm trying to use my legs to drive my body weight through the chassis. (This may be my problem). Which leads to sore legs as I try to stay back on the seat as I pintch the tank. Lesson learned from the Brake bike -but maybe I'm going to an extreme. Hanging off causes problems because I can't get control over my body - I'm not consistent with the pinching and where my buttoick ends up. I just bought a new bike and found that the fairing helps - nice location to wedge the inside leg into to keep from sliding up the seat - basically wedge my knees him, get a half buttock off the seat and then hit the brakes. I'm still perplexed though. I'm guessing I've taken the weight transfer issue to an insane extreme. I'm trying to brake with no pressure on the arms - right now I can hold them above the bars while full on the brakes until my muscles give out of course (which does not take long). I'd would love hearing from folks on the correct balance between legs and arms. I should also say I'm large 6-2 and 220. I'd rather ride dirt track style and ride up on the seat - against the tank - let the tank take the weight. But I was trying to get my buttock back in the seat after an enlightening ride on the lean bike last year. Maybe the solution is tank pads to counteract the shiny new paint that provides next to no grip.

I did a 2 day at VIR last summer. Chose to drove the Mini down from DC. Glad I did. I was beat. It is one thing to drive the 4-5 hours back in the Mini vs. riding home. Guys and gals rode their bikes down with longer commutes. They took an extra day off to drive home the day after the 2 day event. One guy lowsided and hurt his shoulder (not bad) and of course needed to find a way to get the bike home. He could have driven a car home. I'd drive and stay as fresh as possible for the "learning." You'll need your wits and physical stamina. There is a lot to learn. Drive and save your mind for tough stuff. Heading down to 'Bama end of May for Lvl 3 and 4 - can't wait. And yes I'm flying.

Agreed. Sliding with feet on or feet off though is pretty much the same thing. I agree that there is a left foot bias in terms of taking your foot of the peg (balance and/or readjusting for gear issues). If you tivo races though there is a difference in the two - normally you can tell from upper body position. The slide issues often have some upper body repositioning whereas shift readjustment do not. Feet up or foot out does not really make a difference when you are sliding as long as the lean angle does not get insane. The only issue is when you get the bike really low and there is no room for your leg/foot between the bike and the dirt and you have no choice bu to go foot out. I've always wnated to learn to slide the bike in and spent a weekend learing. Granted I crashed 10+ times and could not walk for 2 weeks - huge 20 inch bruise on my hip - and various other pains, but I learned to do it. The hip injury was actually helped since I could not move it the last few sessions I was forced to learn to slide the bike with my feet up/on the pegs. Go figure. I don't think I need to go back for the supermoto class - same thing but on pavement. I'm working my way through level 3 and 4 and then have my eye on coderace - just fo rthe fun of it. Then maybe learn to wheelie. Maybe hit the offroad/supermoto thing after my 50th.

If I recall correctly, the GP-dirtbike thing is done on a dirt bike with the slick rear. There are schools out there that teach you how to slide just such a bike. I've been to one, which claims to have taught the Hayden brothers. Sliding the bike through a turn is a function of speed and lean angle. On a dirt bike, on a rear slick, in say mud, it is much easier to break traction so you need less lean and less speed. It also hurts less when you fall off. I think the experience is probably good to some extent in getting you use to the concept of cliding and helping with throttle control. The problem bieng on the dirtbike you need to sit on the CG, which is not what you do on a street bike. You also are leaning at a lower speed so you are going the opposite direction (ie. sitting up on the bike), again different. The concept that you can learn to slide a 50cc bike with slicks in mud and not get hurt is nice in concept, but I could not walk for two weeks after I learned how to do it. Falling hurts and doing it 10x at 10-20 mph adds up. That all being said I can't slide a street bike. It is different enough in how you get to the lean/speed limit and different enough on how you deal with it that I can't get there on a street bike. Maybe after I finish LVL 3 and 4, I'll get closer. If you really want to learn, go find a class. They are cheap and fun weekend events. If you don't buy into the 10-step program they teach to get you to "it" though, you wont be sliding anything. The 10-steps are to get you there and are artificial. Once you get "it" they tell you to forget how you got there and just remember "it" next time the bike starts to slide out from under you. If you watch Rossi and Hayden closely, when they come in hot and the lean angle/speed result in the rear coming around, they drop the inside leg and go for a dirt bike style. That ends as soon as the speed is scrubbed. It is only lasting for a little bit. The rest of the corner etc. is pure street riding. The dirt bike training is only playing a role at the very beginning of the turn when they blew the entry speed thing. Noitce on most of those turns they also fall off the pace since a unctontrolled slide is nowhere near as good as brakes. Sliding the rear around the turn is a street thing, which dirt riding is not going to help with (other than having good throttle control and other basic functions.)

I should clarify - I don't think you can turn the front wheel fast/hard enough to make it skid. Even if you could, you'd be correcting right away so it appears to be a fear issue. I think that is why Code tries to get you to flick as hard as you feel comfortable with. As Code says, the faster you flick the less you need to lean (less wasted road of sorts.) So if you can flick fast, you can run deeper and extent the straight. I suspect the best late brakers are really also great flickers. They can get the bike turning with less road. If you can flick fast, you can pick a later braking end point and pass the slow flickers in the corners. For those of us who don't get to the track, in a panic situation when you come in hot, it appears you need to think fast flick to save as much road as possible. One thing in skidding - I'm my mind - a skid on a cycle is dictated by speed and lean angle. That being said, if you flick to a lean angle and a speed that the wheels can't hanle, you'll skid. Then the issue is balance etc., and whether you are backing the bike in - dirt track style, which is always a fun thing to learn to do on a small dirt bike at least. BUt even then, assuming your balance is good, the bike will naturally deal with the skid, you just need to turn out of the skid when you've scrubbed enough speed.

Something to think about - the counter-steer means to go right you are turning the wheel left. So now think about where the front wheel is going and hwere is can skid when you "flick." The "quick flick" is caused by the wheel going left. Once you are there, the wheel then returns along its path, straight and then right to lift the bike up and exit. If you "flicked" so hard as to break the front free, you'd likely be doing that when you turned left to "flick" (assuming a right hand turn.) The skid would be caused by the relative angle of the front tire to the direction you were moving in. In this example, it was moved left of the movement of direction. When you turn the wheel straight as thebike leans over, you are decreasing the angle and hence ending the "front wheel flick skid." Think of skidding a front wheel drive car on ice. Same thing somewhat but the end of the flick is the resolution of the skid. Now you say, sure I flick the front skids and when I turn the wheel straight I'm still goingt straight because the skid did not let the bike turn. Not so. The movement of the front wheel to the left is what leans the bike right - go play with a bicycle wheel if you have never expereinced this. The front wheel's contact with the road means nothing. But what about turning won't you still go straight? Sure, if the skid never ends. Your bike is turning because of the displacement of the CG relative to the bike's direction (more or less - a diagonal from the rear contact patch roughly 2/3rd up the front suspension.) Does this mean you can corner with the front wheel skidding? No, because as soon as you are leaned over and "turning" the front needs to oppose the forces that want to send you flying off on the tangent. The skid resolves it self - to the extent you can make it skid - by virtue of your susbequent actions in the corner. If any of this makes sense to you, you'll realize that you can "flick" the front free and it will unskid when you end the flick because the reason for the limited skid is over in an instant.

It was on one of these boards about 3-4 months ago. I think the thread dealt with using the rear brake and throttle on corner entry to pre-load the suspension. When the rear wheel has resistance (from the road or brake) and you dry to dirve it (throttle) you compress the rear wheel into the suspension. Long and short of it, bad idea. But Sir Code had a story about designing something that kept the rear from compressing (I think) it had something to do with pulleys and getting the forces working for you. I'm not sure if the old posts are still available. I had a post in te thread and since I have so few, you may be able to search that way.

My $0.02 as someone who rides a 1200GS with ABS every day (12 months of the year in all weather to and from work) - Whether it is TC, linked brakes, ABS, televers, paralevers and who knows what, the technology has three main effects. First, it changes the way the bike talks to you. Second, it changes the physics. Third, it changes the rider's mental state. As Sir Code commented in an earlier thread, he designed something to limit the effect that throttle had on compressing the suspension. From a physics standpoint (and in reality) the bike was quicker. The rider, however, hated the way the bike spoke to him. The BMW advances are no different. For example, as reported in PB last month (a worthy magazine that features Sir Code in the back each month), they did the old ABS vs standard brakes test. When then ran just fronts or just backs, standard brakes won. When they ran both (hence why some companies link th ebrakes) and ABS they found the bike porpoised back and forth which resulted in ABS beating standard. If the goal is to lock both brakes in a panic situation to let the dolphin save us, then you can understand why servo assist is a good thing. For the track, maybe not. But it does work and can help ease the concerns of those who may get called into a panic stop in rush hour on unknown pavement. I like the paralever or is it telever front end, but it does not give you much notice before it lets go. Next to none in fact. Bad? In the last month, I;ve lost the rear on a corner and then the front (oil and sand)but in both cases got out of the skids sans any real drama. Well maybe it is bad, but then again what if the biggest problem with people crashing is what the rider does? Sir Code Jr. had the TT tale where the bike was going crazy until it got rid of its rider. If you keep the rider calm as long as possible, can you get them in and out of situations they otherwise would panic in? I can't tell you I enjoy hanging the rear of the GS out a foot or two in rush hour traffic or having the front start to tuck on oil when there is a car behind me. I'd like to think my Superbike training saved me, but I was also relaxed. Was it just my training or was it the bike not getting me into a snit? There is much more going on here than just giving you a new technology. There is an effect on the rider that also plays into the equation. TC is just another extension of the concept. The technology has its place. On a big machine designed for the street, it may be worth it. On the tarck, it makes bikes go faster by letting rear wheel slide be programmed into the ecu. Riders get hurt less and go faster. That has to be a good thing. For all those who hate TC, what is the difference between TC and mfgs programming the bike's ECU to cut power in lower gears? A la Triumph Rocket, ZX-14, GSRX-1000 (which now has various maps the rider can select) etc. Isn't that just a less sophisticated way of helping you keep the rear planted?

I have a similar issue, but I think it is mental. I'd love to know what others think. I have a conceptual problem with downhill turns because I fear the front is going to be pushed past its traction limit because the bike is leaning forward/ as am I and the road is falling away. It is not an issue - in my mind- that there is to much weight, but to little - the road is falling away from the wheel. The last few turns at VIR threw me for a loop when I did Lvl 1 and 2. The fear of being able to get on the gas would result in me slowing down the entry speed and then being very conservative with the throttle. The science of it would indicate that the front is not being over worked. The pitch of the hill is not going to change the weight distribution that much. Of all the places people crash at VIR, going downhill is generally not one of them. But, yet I have an issue with getting on the gas and shifting weight to the rear with a road that is falling away from the front. I'm guessing that this may be a survival instinct issue - I just don't feel safe pitched forward.

Although the Master has set the record straight, I'll throw in my $0.02. Losing the front is relatively common on my GS when on gravel roads. Which I will grant you is different from losing the front on a track, but then there are some similarities. The only cure for my GS is to add gas and bring the back around to reduce the effect angle between the front tire and the arc I am trying to track. In other words, when the front no longer steers you steer from the rear. (Which is subject of debate on BMW boards in view of the new traction control the company is offering - traction control is not always a good thing.) Mind you the GS is losing the front because I ma exceeding the speed that I can get traction. In other words, I don't need a lot of gas to get the rear to a similar state. Twisting off the gas just loads the front which is already sliding. Not a cure for anything but a quicker trip to the road. Trying to steer into the skid (toward the tangent of the turn which is where the bike is headed - ie. opposite to the lean) leans the bike farther into the turn and put the tire on less of a contact patch. Skids happen because of lean angle and speed. Assuming speed has not changed, you've just reduced the lean angle and increased the tendency to skid. Trying to stand the bike up requires turning the wheel into the turn (counter steering) and increases the angle between the tire and the road - akin to a front wheel drive car plowing - and just makes the skid worse for a brief moment. At which point, you have created a new arc which you hope makes the front happy. Although the bike should sit up at some point and correct itself although then you're heading into a tree. I can't imagine very many roads or circuits on which you'd want to knowingly exits stage left when you are at a speed that the font is losing traction. Steer from the rear is the only option, which I'm guessing is a level 3 or 4 lesson. I've had glorious accident where I low sided a dirt bike (running a rear slick on a small tt course). I ended up with a 2 foot bruise on my hip and the inability to walk (like a human) for 2 weeks. I was off the gas and leaning back coming into the turn. I was getting lazy and was not able to support my mass sliding the bike into the corner, adding weight to the rear meant the front tucked. Had I been neutral on the bike, the rear would have slid as it had on the other turns. Adding gas in that situation would have done nothing as I was creating to many problems for the bike - the rear has my large mass over it and was not going to break loose. The point being, you may be doing other things to the bike such that adding gas is not going to fix things. It presumes you have your stuff together and are nor hampering the bike's ability to do what it wants to do.

The simple explanation of what is going on is what Code does in his class. It is pretty amazing how he boils down some complex concepts into plain english and then has drills to help you learn what and why something happens. I will clarify one point - although they all could use it - the line from the rear contact patch to the 2/3rd mark moves. The front point is not fixed - 2/3rds is a guide. The movement is based on a number of factors - according to the article I remember reading. Which gets back to the school's "stability" focus. If the bike's suspension etc. is stable the line that dictates rotation does not change - as much - and thus our little brains can begin to connect the dots - matching the lean angle, speed, rorad, etc. Code has managed to isolate the various key inputs and then figured out lessons to help program the brain. His first lesson on steering is really a two-fer in that he shows counter-steering but also the need to lean with the bike. I think the second point is where people get confused and have come up with the "myth" that lean steers the bike. It does and it doesn't. Lean will never initiate the turn, which is the no-BS bike lesson. Lean will, however, make the bike turned (i.e. the movement of the CG will) which gets into the lean lessons - Level 3 - which I hope to take at some point. On the twisting concept - your (or someone's) flying-V formation is a great example. You may just not have realized how profound your observation was. "lean" does not alone make anything turn. Lean vs. CG is what is important. How one pivots around another is conceptually difficult, but you already made the observation with the Flying-V. If I can think of someway to feel the twisting concept, I'll post it.