adamsys

Yes, that term came to my mind as I read the article, too. In the field of human factors and ergonomics proprioception is understood to mean the ability to sense limb position. This is what is at work when you close your eyes and touch the tip of your nose with out having to feel around. This sense is considered to be under the category of touch. This has relevance in the sensing of lean angle, especially. Changing direction and speed are fundamentally just the sensing of force. But, at steep lean angles then the knee touches the tarmac and proprioception comes into play where your body position tells you your lean angle with much greater precision that the sense of force alone. Regarding your use of the word "meditate" which I think is totally appropriate. I find that the psychological aspect of riding a motorcycle at speed around a closed course to be so illuminating about one's inner self as to be rather profound. This is the thing that is most difficult to explain to a non-motorcyclist when they ask "why do you do it?"

I have a feeling they are setting up the suspension to rebound quickly so the wasn't much resistance from the shock. He obviously had that thing compressed deep into the suspension travel because there was a ton of energy returned in a burst!

Is it my imagination or has his rigid foot peg touched down and unweighted his rear wheel? Looks like his body weight is far forward, no?

WOW! I've only heard of maybe 3 or 4 of those guys and I consider myself to be pretty "cluey." I've only been to NZ once and that was for our 'southern hemisphere' wedding. (How about that sky at night: completely alien constellation!) I understand Burt Monroe's grandson was in attendance at our wedding but that's all I got. Don't those Kiwis really know how to have a good time!?

<giggle> Exactly my point! BTW: I'm married to a Kiwi grrl....

I think it stands for Daytona Motorsport Group or something like that. Its the organization that bought Pro racing from AMA. Yeah, I read a bunch of stuff online about it. (Roardracing World, Superbike Planet, etc.) They were trying to get rid of 1000 cc bikes because they are too fast for American tracks but the manufacturers flipped out. Then they decided to go with a "Literbike" class with the rules worked out for 2009 Superbike previously but it will be a support class for "Daytona Superbike" premier class. The later is basically Formula FX as we know it today and will have much higher purses than the "Literbike" class. "Literbike," as I understand it, will allow less modifications than Superbike today but more modifications than Supersport. The idea is to keep costs down. I'm not a big fan of Formula FX. I think Daytona went lame when they went to FX. In fact, I wasn't pleased when they went from international formula one specs to superbike specs. Daytona totally lost its international best-of-the-best feel, lost its attraction of fastest teams in the world, and lost a great deal of its prestige in the process. I watch the race every year but its more of tradition than excitement for me. I worry that the same thing is going to happen to AMA Pro racing as a whole. New Zealand has a great little domestic racing scene but nobody cares except the Kiwis! We'll see... ...I guess its still in flux at the moment.

Honestly, most of the Superstock 1000 Cup races are nearly as exciting. Even the one from last year at Silverstone in the rain was good. I think B-Boz is right about suggesting the DMG use the same classes as World Superbike. How would anybody here in the states know if they never see those races which I think is a real shame. (Although I think DMG got it right by including the rider in the minimum weights) I've been watching that bit of Corti over and over again analyzing his body positioning...

I've been watching the Superstock 1000 Cup races on the internet and have been very impressed. Here is a bit of the last lap from this year's Valencia race to illustrate my point. Claudio Corti demonstrates amazing balance. He also illustrates why that's not enough on its own.

I have 8000 miles on my 2007 R1 (USA model) and I love the bike. I've been riding a LONG time but this thing is a beast like I've never been on before. If you are up to a challenge, I'm still trying to "man-up" to it, then go for it. It could be dangerous but its your throttle hand!

Sorry guys but I've been massively busy and am just getting around to a proper reply (neglecting my commitments in the process...). Anyway, let's have at it: Well, you can't be blamed for that; they haven't brodcasted it here in the states! If I wasn't a sneaky cyber criminal, I wouldn't have seen it either. (I'm not sure if that is a crime on me or the networks!) ABSOLUTELY AMAZING FOOTAGE! Max was obviously NOT using the rear brakes! Because he was braking INTO the corner and leaned over, the bike/rider center of gravity (CG) was to the right of his sole point of contact: front tire and the track. As a result, they (he and his bike) did a bit of a "pirouette" to the right... ...confirming all theory! (I have it on digital video so i should snip that bit and post it on YouTube or something.) The MAN himself! BTW: Its official, I'll see you on May 12 at Pocono. Yeah, its a sweet ride. I clocked 8k on her last year including 2 track days and I still feel like I'm trying to "man up" to her! I drove off the floor with a lojack installed and no haggling in NYC for less than that. I don't know about you but working on the bike myself is a major part of the fun for me. I'm bringing her up to "superstock" spec (with lights) and applying a fresh coat of paint before we hit the road this season. Should be rather beautiful. dude, I think you nailed it. These guys are, after all, world class riders. I should snip a bit from my "collection" and post it on YouTube so we can discuss this from a common frame of reference. It will have to wait a week or so 'cause I'm balls-to-the-walls on an over due project right now. shirking my responsibilities just to compose this reply! In my world, there has never been a fast enough computer nor a fast enough bike! No matter what comes out from Intel, I just up my game until it crashes, HARD! (have't crashed hard on a bike, though... ...can you see my fingers are crossed? Besides, crashing a computer doesn't hurt as much, generally!)

1st: Thanx, everybody, for your opinions. For me, personally, I'll have my hands full just with the basics for the next season. So, yes, I'll be working on using the front brake alone. To be fair, I've found the R1 to be very stable even at 150 MPH indicated. What surprised me is how ragged the lead guys in the Superstock 1000 Cup racers were. Further, it seemed like it was mostly the R1 guys. Has anybody on the forum watched any of last year's races? Did you see what I'm talking about or am I delusional?

Hey All; I've been watching a couple of on-line videos of the 2007 FIM Supersport 1000 Cup races. Since I bought a new R1 and did my first track days on it last season, this series is the closest thing to what I actually experienced. To me, the front runners are a good example of what my bike's potential is. It having said that, one striking observation is how wildly the back end swings around when hard on the brakes during corner entry. What is going on here? Are they using the back brake on the way in? For the record, in spite of the luke warm reception from the American Motorcycle Press, the R1 was the "bike of choice at the moment" (according to the EuroSport commentator). It the states, its all about the Gixxer but it FIM SuperSport, its was all about the Ducati 1098 and the R1. The R1 dudes were always leading, then balled it up and gifted the podium to others. Its too bad that the the 1000's are the "red headed step-child" of motorcycle roadracing... ...the races I watched were very exciting and decided in the last lap and, often in the last corner. Instead we have to watch formula extreme ( how Ironic!) Okay, there are a number of ways this thread can go: A) What's up with treating 1000 production racing like sh*t while the 600's are MAJOR? (Here's another paradox: The "powers-that-be" want to make racing "safer" by reducing the engine size but also think that traction control is ruining racing??? Who is Rumsfeld working for these days, Honda?) B ) I have one of these bike and I endeavour to ride it to it fullest potential. In the quest for lap times, do I have to master the art of rear braking? I accepted delivery of my R1 in February last year. I was out during the day visiting friends and showing it off. Night fell and so did the temperatures. I touched the front brakes and the front end went out in the blink of an eye; I became 'that ass I used to make fun of' and crashed it with 48 mile on the odometer... ...Flash forward... ...My first track day and I was using the rear brakes after decades (DECADES!) of not really using them. I had to learn not to use them again (it wasn't that easier, either) Now, with the observation of world class riders on a bike that is VERY similar to mine, I'm wondering if I need to refine my approach to using the rear brakes? C) Is the chassis tuning of contemporary bikes on the edge of instability? All my heroes: Kenny, The Waynes, Eddie, Kevin, et cetera... ...they didn't seem to go through this kind of gymnastics. Or, is it the reality of DOT tires? I'm open to all opinions and coaching...

I've got the package deal with both Twist books and audio CDs, Soft Science book, an interactive CD and a DVD. Believe it or not, the best of it is audio CDs! I haven't finished reading Twist II but I've heard it almost every work day since I got it. Just let it loop in the background. There's a ton of info to digest; hope it comes to me while I'm riding like a Led Zepline tune!

Newtons (N) A 100 lbf student on earth has a mass of 3.10809 slugs(mass in SAE) That same student exerts a force of 444.822 N on earth (force ISO) If a 100 lbf student weights 16 lbf force on the moon he/she still has a mass of 3.10809 slugs. Our earth bound perception of mass is actually the force of that mass due to the gravitational attraction of the Earth's mass. This is a major cluster f*ck of our understanding of mass/weight. Truly a mess! I just convert to metric for my calculations even though I am used to pounds.

Right! That's the reason for hanging off as I understand it.

Honestly, I think Nicky has finished the corner at this point and its heading down the straight... ...look how far his knee is from the tarmac and the rear tire is clearly tracking to the rider's right. But there is something to your point where, with MotoGP level equipment, there comes a point where the lean angle causes the edge of the bike and the rider coincide with a single plane defined by the road's surface! It starts to look very much like the rider isn't hanging off anymore! Ah, this is a domain reserved for Keith's private sessions! Here's a shot of a guy at Summit Point showing what can be done on street tires: Does he need to hang off that far? Maybe not, doesn't look like the bike is in any danger of dragging. Nevertheless, you have to be impressed! I guess the real measure of success is lap times...

This is a good question for me because I'm planning on making a rear set for myself with my CNC machine. I've been researching how the race bikes are set up. Of course, the MotoGP bikes have only one position which, I assume, is custom tailored to the specific rider's tastes. So what about a novice like me who really doesn't have a specific position preference? Is it purely an ergonomic issue? I know when the pegs are very far rearward, the bike wheelies easier. It took me a while to get my head around that because, as an engineer, my first thought is to think of the rider and bike as a pair of rigid bodies that combine to form a singular rigid body with a center of gravity that is the weighted average of the bike and rider CGs. But that is a flawed notion because the rider is an adaptive mass, sort of like a Segway scooter, that automatically centers its mass over the contact points (pegs mostly). So maybe its better to optimize the peg location and alter that tank ergonomics to suit?

Don't worry, I've already made up my mind to take the classes. Although I haven't signed up yet, I'll be at the May Pocono event. Might try to hit the NJ Motorsport Park event late in the season, too. Which class in the sequence has the lean bike?

Yeah, it might be no more than an intellectual curiosity without any practical application. What can I say, I'm a curious guy. anybody else with an opinion?

Yes! One only needs to observe the antics of the stunters to see what happens at the extremes and there is plenty to learn from those guys even if its not "my trip." I almost got into this deeper on my last post but waited. My thinking is this. The easiest way to "tune" the balance of rear and font tire force is a twist of the wrist (forgive the pun but it was me not Keith). No funky body positioning required so its doable for a mortal. But a circumstance like a top gear sweeper or a skid pad will not allow any acceleration. The rear tire normally has the components of acceleration as well as lateral load while the front only has the lateral thing to deal with. If acceleration is not possible then its a situation of pure lateral load. Then body position should be altered to match the tire patch difference between the front and rear tire, no? Obviously, there is a sweet spot. I imagine that isolating that sweet spot in skid pad work might help with mid-turn cornering. Maybe an upright torso is better in a high speed sweeper? That way you have your weight rearward and also get the benefit of wind loading the rear a bit, too? Seems to me that the ideal is to have your weight back while on the brakes . Then move it forward to the 'sweet spot' in mid turn. Finally moving one's weight forward at the exit. However, one might need superhuman skill to pull this off without upsetting the bike.

Hey Cobie: thanx for the response. I bought the full package with the books, audio CDs, DVD and interactive CD. (such a deal!) Well, I've been listening to the audio CDs throughout my work day, over and over again. There is a wee bit of a contradiction regarding rider position and weight balance that has me a bit perplexed. There is the notion of force balance related to tire contact area that favors the rear tire over the front tire (approximately 40% front to 60% rear). This requires a small amount of acceleration to achieve balance. Very logical. But then there is another section where Keith describes his personal experience; he had his weight very far forward over the front end because he placed his chest on the tank, as I tend to do. He describes a tendency for the rear to come around on him. With more weight on the front, the front should have gone out first, no? ( I can cite this more rigorously if you wish.) This reminded me of the "pony cars" that were very front heavy with those big V8's under the hood. The rear end smoked 'em all the time. They made great drag racers because the weight transfer under acceleration loaded the driving tires with the full weight of the vehicle in the case of a perfect wheelie with the just a bit of sunlight under the front tires. But I also know when I WANT to break the rear end loose on the bike, I climb way over the bars and snap the clutch. It works like a charm and toasts the rear tire. So my thinking, at this point, has been revised. There is some kind of relationship between traction and loading that is somewhat nonlinear. In pure cornering, both tires contribute to the goal of lateral acceleration. In pure straight-line acceleration, only the rear tire provides the drive so any weight shared with the front tire reduces the rear's potential to drive the bike. There must be some situations that lie between these 2 extremes in a road racing scenario. I'm a major geek so I will explore this exhaustively but, I must say, this bothers me. Is this a De Puniet gotcha? I'm thinking more about this but I think I'll let this post go "as is."

First, thanks to you and "racer" both for the feedback. I definitely appreciate it. But, in the totally clinical conditions of a 360 degree constant radius track, I would think that one would be locked into a constant speed: the throttle would be very nearly still. I'm guessing that its a "steady state" condition that tests weight bias in isolation, no? I admit that this condition is never actually experienced on a race track, at least not exactly like this. When the Yoshimura team tested rain tires last season, Mladin requested a figure eight track instead of a simple circular skid pad. (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=29882) I'm certain the figure eight is much more representative of an actual race track and I will us this set up for my own training in the future. Throttle control will definitely be involved here. Having said that, though, it might be informative regarding the transition from entering on the brakes to neutral mid-turn to exiting on the throttle: That little bit of neutral... ...what do you think? (BTW: really diggin' this thread!)

Yeah, I thought so. Last season, between track days, I was working on my body position by laying out a 50ft radius skid pad on a decommissioned Air Force base and doing laps every weekend. I was trying to "tune my tilt-o-meter" but way before I touched my knee down, the front tire would wash. The surface was poor and the radius too short because the tires really didn't get up to temperature. Still, it was my front that slide first instead of both ends together. At the time, I moved more of my weight forward and lower. After the 2nd chapter of Twist II, I realized I did the exact opposite of what I should have done. That made me very sensitive to the subject. BTW: Am I right about my weight bias? If my front end is sliding at constant speed and constant radius then I should move my weight back? That's why I felt obliged to ask. He certainly would mop up my butt!

Hi All; Randy De Puniet has reputation of being very fast but also for crashing often. At the recent Sepang Pre-season Test he was 11th fastest and was having front end problems. Here is a quote appearing on the Speed VT website: (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/motogp/42696/?page=3) Randy De Puniet, LCR Honda: 2m 01.873s - 56 laps “I worked on the range of tires that Michelin brought here for me to try then on the overall balance of the bike with suspension settings and a different off-set on the front forks. Then, when I was happy with the set up in the early afternoon I worked on front tires. I crashed today at the same place as yesterday, the same time and the same speed. The front turned in on me very quickly - very strange as I was of the gas. Maybe it was a combination of the high track temperature and a too soft front tire. I ran my race simulation test yesterday afternoon and it was very good. I am very happy I have been fast on every day.” Let me bring attention to this bit: "The front turned in on me very quickly - very strange as I was of the gas." Doesn't backing off the gas put weight on the front end making it more likely to slide?