acebobby

Thanks Hotfoot, that makes sense and next time I'm on track I will work on that drill to find the sweetspot turnpoint I am looking for!

Ok Eric thanks for your opinion on this but I am a bit confused about your coment "Could you just have overextended the available grip?" I cant resolve any issues in my head thinking like that! A little about me at this track, this was my first trackday here this year and I quickly discovered that I was a fair bit quicker than I used to be, so much so that I had to find some places where I could pass slower riders, so for that purpose I was experimenting with a few different lines, I had found that if I could get close enough to the lead rider by the end of the straight, go through turn 1 and 2 take a late entry into turn 3 (where I crashed) I could get on the power early and pass on the exit of this turn up the inside towards turn 4, I had made this work a couple of times throughout the morning especially against bigger bikes that I could not pass on the straight! Now if you look at the video it looks like I was hoping to go for this move on the rider in front of me, meaning I was carrying more lean angle than normal because I would have had to exit in the middle of the track, watching the video I dont think I would have been close enough to make the move work and would have ended up tucking in behind him for turn 4 but it looks like thats the line I was going for! cheers Bobby Bobby, I hope you don't mind me entering the fray. And by the way it is nice to see you again. I think you created the problem by enterng the corner late and had to much lean angle. I watched through the other corners as well and in my opinion you are not getting off the bike. The body position isn't an issue until you start trying to carry more speed. Your body position looks a little twisted, like you are sliding your hip over but keeping your upper body over the center.I think you could have carried more speed on the same line as the guy in front of you if you could get your upper body off the tank and your chin in your right elbow. You would have blown right passed him. Thanks fossilfuel, of course I dont mind you entering the discussion, all opinions are welcome! What you are saying about my body position at higher speeds makes sense to me and gives me an area to look at, this web link is of a few photos of me before the crash that morning and are mostly taken through the hairpin so are quite slow but the last 2 look like they are at a faster turn and my body position doesn't look so good. http://www.trackpix.co.uk/showgallery.asp?gal=30-04-10%20-%20Bobby%20CBR600rr The other thing about turning in late has opened a can of worms in my mind as this was something I spent alot of attention on achieving, on track and road I always try to turn a little later, have I got this wrong? Bobby

Ok Eric thanks for your opinion on this but I am a bit confused about your coment "Could you just have overextended the available grip?" I cant resolve any issues in my head thinking like that! A little about me at this track, this was my first trackday here this year and I quickly discovered that I was a fair bit quicker than I used to be, so much so that I had to find some places where I could pass slower riders, so for that purpose I was experimenting with a few different lines, I had found that if I could get close enough to the lead rider by the end of the straight, go through turn 1 and 2 take a late entry into turn 3 (where I crashed) I could get on the power early and pass on the exit of this turn up the inside towards turn 4, I had made this work a couple of times throughout the morning especially against bigger bikes that I could not pass on the straight! Now if you look at the video it looks like I was hoping to go for this move on the rider in front of me, meaning I was carrying more lean angle than normal because I would have had to exit in the middle of the track, watching the video I dont think I would have been close enough to make the move work and would have ended up tucking in behind him for turn 4 but it looks like thats the line I was going for! cheers Bobby

Hi bobby, Sorry to hear about your off mate, at least you're ok, you'll ride again, and get past this. I watched the Video, and it's tricky to tell, you did look like you had a lot of lean angle to me. If you were on the throttle, it does have cold tyres written all over it really, if not, then perhaps some weight on the inside bar? I noted your pics in your other thread though, and to be honest, I wasn't seeing lots of weight on the bars, but you'd know better than us..? How old were the tyres? Do you use warmers? Done many trackdays before? How many heat cycles they been through? Bullet Thanks for the quick replies guys, Cobie, It was less than 10 degrees at the track, wind wasn't bad and it was dry, the track is short, about 1 mile, and has 5 right hand turns and 2 left so the bike had spent a good bit of time on that side, The interesting thing is when you asked "Was it dramatically faster than the lap before?" I think that it probably was, I dont know why but I seem to be a slow starter and gradually build speed up throughout the day, I imagine if I had a lap timer every lap would be faster than the last! Bullet, I put alot of focus and effort into being loose on the bars, It was drummed into my head by JET on my level 1 so I would think that as I improve and speed up, being relaxed is key! How old were the tyres? They were brand new Metzeler M3s that morning and had 58 miles of track use on them when I crashed! Do you use warmers? No I dont but I think I will be buying a set for sure! How many heat cycles they been through? I think they would have been on there 3rd but as they are road tyres I dont think it matters! I will be getting the bike back to good working order ASAP, and am desperate to get back on track and get over this little fall, from a psychological point of view it would be easier for me to assume that a cold tyre was to blame. l hate to blame tyres but could it be that I should be using more track focused tyres, i.e qualifier RRs, supercorsa's etc! Again thanks for the feedback guys, it clears things up in my head as I have a right problem with overthinking things! Bobby

HI guys and girls I just thought I'd post this to see what your opinions on this are! On friday I had a low side crash that really caught me by surprise, I cannot figure out what I did wrong and it is messing with my head a little, the thing is i know that I never chopped the throttle and as far as I'm aware I followed all the other rules of cornering! The one thing that I cannot remember is how many laps I had done before I crashed, I never took any bad injuries away but I did take quite a hard fall, followed by getting hit by a stray CBR1000RR, So it could be possible that my tyres werent up to temp, infact It has all the signs of cold tyres I think! As it happens someone caught this crash on video and stuck it on youtube so I thought I would post it here to see if any of you guys see something that I am missing, I am on the lead bike, the dude on the white fireblade grabbed the brakes when I came off, I really felt bad for him! Bobby

some pics

OK firstly hi to the regular posters on here who I've had some in depth discussions with in the past and who without their advice and guidance I would not be able to ride as well as I do today! I used to post on this forum regularly, I also spent a bit of time on a few other forums until I got to a point where I was spending way to much time on forums and not enough time focusing on other priorities in my life. I had to cut myself off from my online world and re-establish balance in my real life! So over the last few months I have turned my CBR600RR into a track bike, I have totally worked on my fitness, I have basically been alot more pro-active than I've been in a few years, I have decided that forums are a great way to interact with people with common interests as long as you dont let it affect other area's of your life, so for this reason I have pulled out of a load of other sites, I am however remaining a member of the cornering forum as its the one where I find people all around the world who like to talk about the the same thing I am interested in, Keiths books and finding the fastest way around a corner! So let me tell you about my trip to Almeria! This was 3 days on track, and a week of firsts for me. We had 3 guys on hand for advice and instruction, they were Jeremy Mcwilliams, Randy Mamola, and Simon Crafar and they were as normal and as down to earth as you and I. At first I was a bit starstruck as I'm getting the safety breifing and am just thinking, s#%t thats Randy Mamola right there! The good thing about this event was that you all got transponders and the laptimes were put up throughout the day, this is something you just dont get in the UK! The first of my week of firsts came on day one, this was dragging my knee, something I just thought I wasn't flexible enough to do so never really bothered trying before, so anyway after my 2nd session I'm having a chat with Randy Mamola and he says, this is a good flowing track take turn 3 for example (long left hander) if your not dragging your knee your going to slow, increase your entry speed till your knee hits the ground! I went out and by the third lap I was dragging my knee round turn 3, by the end of the session I was dragging my knee at both sides on almost every turn, After that session I was buzzing! The track day organiser put on some optional fun races for you to enter, I wasn't going to do this but on day 2 changed my mind, so this was my 2nd of my week of firsts, participate in a race, the first was a 1 hour endurance race which I never had a team mate but was allowed to start at the back of the grid just to get the tracktime, I stayed out there for the hour and learned a how to control slides, for those that have been to Almeria the last turn onto the long straight, I was getting more and more aggressive with the throttle till the rear was spinning as I was picking up, I probably overdone that a bit between the point of good laptimes and showing off but I didn't care as was having so much fun feeling like I was in control of a big slide! Day 3 I woke up and it was raining, I was gutted, all I had was the tyres that were on the bike, a pair of 110 lap old roasted pirrelli BSB supercorsa's, and I had entered an intermediate 6 lap race today, it didn't look good! When we arrived at the track the rain had stopped and the track was patchy wet-dry, a few people ventured out onto track, mostly race teams doing pre season testing, I decided to go out and it was slippy but I was enjoying myself and a dry line began to form, I was lapping when something passed me fast, I knew there were fast guys out there testing, (James Westmoreland and Billy Mconnell with the came Yamaha team and Richard Cooper on the BMW S1000RR) but this was different this thing passed me like a sonic boom, I pulled into the pits and it turned out to be Alex Debon's Moto2 bike out testing! In the afternoon I had my 6 lap race, the temperature was low so the track had not dried out very much and was still quite patchy, I had to start at the back of the grid as I hadn't done qualifying, this was an intermediate race and was done as a rolling start, as a trackday rider I am not very confidant at passing people, I had spoken to Simon Crafar about this in the bar the previous night and he had given me a few pointers! I knew that I couldn't get anywhere near the front in this race but my goal was just to work through the pack! My plan was to back off from the guy in front during the warmup lap and use the rolling start to my advantage, I crossed the line fast and gained 2 positions before turn 1, then I was stuck behind 2 bikes that were fighting it out, I knew I was faster but I couldn't find a way past and got stuck for a few laps, then I remembered Randy Mamola's advice from day one and what I did gave me the biggest grin factor In my motorbiking life, I went into turn 3 fast, late and passed both bikes on the outside with my knee dragging, in the end I had started in position 24th and finished in 16th, on the downside everyone behind me DNF'd so I still finished last but I know whst I did out there so am not bothered! Bobby

Nice post, I remember that feeling myself of having read twist 2 and going out and practicing the techniques and being amazed at how much more control I had of my bike! Keep reading over sections of the book and go out and practice them and let the forum know how your getting on! Bobby

Hi Jason I have the same opinion as Kevin on this one, wait for level 3 and you will get what you need, the reason you have never heard of the "keeping his legs into the tank any time he's changing his BP" drill is because it would be more likely to be called the knee to knee, some riders do it naturally and some have a massive gap between there legs when moving across the bike! The point is if you practice this incorrect now it could cause problems as your riding progresses! Bobby He couldn't remember the name. Pretty easy name. We watched riders in a quick turn, and not one person was doing it, from Beginner to Advanced. If you watch riders in a quick turn they should be locked onto one side of the bike, to see someone doing knee to knee you would have to watch at a section where they have a change of direction i.e. leaning one direction to the other direction, this technique leads on to the hip flick in quicker direction changes! Bobby

Hi Gary welcome to the forum, The skills and techniques taught at the school are absolutely transferable to road riding, check out the twist of the wrist 2 DVD and you will see that the main characters begin their journey of improvement on the road! Just beware you may get hooked on track riding!

You could've learned that by just by picking up "The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy" by Douglas Adams. Much cheaper that way, and hilarious if you like the British humour Kai Cheaper maybe, as effective ~ NO. The way Keith put it: Ever see a pro rider try to regain control of his bike only to fall off, after which the riderless bike recovers and continues down the track? No SR inputs - LOL Note for next trackday, Be a passenger on a riderless bike! Preferably someone else's riderless bike!

Bobby, I dont recall if you did Level 2, but if you did, do you remember the "Change lines" drill? In a situation like this, the "change lines" drill is good for these situations where you cannot hit your "normal" turn point, but you should still be able to hit almost the same line through the corner by turning a little later and quicker (I think - not totally sure about this though), if you're closer to the inside of the turn than you normally would. Say your normal entry into the corner is at the extreme outside of the corner, and you have a good TP and line that obeys the Throttle Control rule. Now, if your new entry is in the middle of the track, you should still be able to hit the same line by intersecting your trajectory and the "good line" and making a Turn point and steering input that makes you hit that line. OK, so it's a bit difficult to explain without a drawing, but I hope you get the gist of my point. Regards, Kai (off to sleep - it's past midnight!) Hi Kai I have done level 2 and I really did find the changing lines drill really good, I found that It helped me to realise just how much unused space there was out there, Its not something I do at trackdays though, maybe it would be worth me messing with a few different lines during my first session! Bobby

Hi Jason I have the same opinion as Kevin on this one, wait for level 3 and you will get what you need, the reason you have never heard of the "keeping his legs into the tank any time he's changing his BP" drill is because it would be more likely to be called the knee to knee, some riders do it naturally and some have a massive gap between there legs when moving across the bike! The point is if you practice this incorrect now it could cause problems as your riding progresses! Bobby

I'm glad this topic is getting discussed! Here's a problem I experienced at my last track day last year, see I'm not the fastest out there but I do try to ride by the book so to speak, my procedure for turn entry is head for turn point, 2-step, quick turn, throttle rule #1, all while trying to stay relaxed I gradually increase entry speed and rarely experience any SRs in this area of my riding! The problem I experienced last year was that coming up the straight at my local track I passed someone but their speed was fast and by the end of the straight I never had room to get into my position to take the line I was comfortable on, I made the turn but was ragged and I guess out of control (which is probably why I remember it so vividly) so I think I charged the turn and fortunately got away with it! Bobby

Thanks for the feedback on this subject guys, it was messing with my head a bit! It gives me a fresh understanding that if I find myself charging the turn all I have to do is reduce my entry speed a little and go through the basics till I get the corner correct! Thanks Bobby

Ok so this is me probably over complicating yet another simple subject but I was chilling out today watching the twist 2 DVD and at the point where one of the boys realises he's charging the turns he turns to his mate and says this is SR #1 in another form! So here's the thing, I know that this is SR #1 and is triggered by the standard "in to fast" I also realise that if I go to page 29 of twist 2 charging, discharging and recharging are all covered in full. The thing I'm getting stuck with is this Is charging the turn a completely individual problem that wont affect 2 people the same way, I mean say for example I was following an instructors lines round a track and at 2 or 3 of the turns I felt too fast to get on the throttle right away but the instructor was just smoothly cruising round, would that be me charging the turns but yet at the same entry speed the instructor is not? hope this makes sense, I think I'm struggling to put into words what I mean! Bobby

Am in the middle of reading Lorenzo's autobiography and interestingly that is something his father trained him to do from a very young age, guess it could make all the difference, where points are concerned! Bobby

Funny for you to say that as that was my second answer, I got so much out of the relax drill it was unbeleivable. My instructor at the time Jet, was going nuts trying to get me to relax on the bike and I think at first I was tensing up because I was trying to hard to relax, weird but I eventualy got it and now I have a small procedure I have to put myself through to make sure I dont tense up, including the famous chicken wings! You said we were only aloud to pick one thing and it messed with my head trying to decide between this or the 2-step, eventualy going with the 2-step! Sorry for breaking the rules of your thread stuman! Bobby

Watch the dudes head moving about and you realise the importance of visuals, he's basically jjoining the dots (cones) with a 2-step motion!

WHY? Are you a journalist?

If your searching "Try to run through a forest where you constantly have to avoid branches and where the ground is really rough and with lots of hills etc. while keeping your head cocked sideways. I doubt many will find it natural. I also believe you are more likely to fall or twist your ankle" I dont think it will bring up to many topics on this forum lol There is however loads of topics similar or the same as every topic you have started over the last few weeks and they contain some excellent information, and in alot of cases Keith has added his own opinion also! most people will only read the latest topics so if something from the past interests you, add your opinion and bump it to the top! Bobby

Thanks for the great write up on the bike stuman, now I want one, I might have to organise a holiday to America at a location where the school conveniently happens to be doing a 2 day camp just to get my hands on one! Bobby

As stuman said there are loads of fitness threads, and they are worth searching as there's some good stuff on them but I thought this might interest you http://www.bikesportnews.com/articles/arti...H_LEON_CAMIER_1 It seems to be the sport of choice with most racers! Bobby

We will however get to see how Mcoy rides an 800! http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sp...n-motogp-mccoy/ Bobby

Only one thing, thats a tough one so I gave it a bit of thought! I looked at all the things I learned, all the drills and tried to rate them in some sort of order, not an easy thing to do but when I did this I was left with 2 things that hold all my techniques together, without them I am a mess but since I'm only aloud one the twostep comes out on top, learning that technique was a mega WOW moment for me, who knows where I was looking before I learned that but now its the glue that allows all the other techniques work in harmony for me! Bobby