Jaybird180

If the throttle is off at any point while the bike is moving forward, it will decelerate. PERIOD. With throttle, the rider can maintain a pre-determined entry speed with view of turn-in point and apex. Lean angle is then easy to determine. With the weight distributed f/r, the rider can be more aggressive (I would think) with the steering input for the given available traction. I think the lean angle cost is the result of the forward inertia of the bike, not as much a factor of the gyro forces trying to keep the machine upright (flame suit on).

Yes, but the maximum traction available for cornering forces is reduced, no?

That's debatable

You said you haven't taken a CSS school. That is what I am saying you need to do. Track riding without it is pointless at best and dangerous to yourself and others at worst. I never said that I didn't have formalized training, just wasn't CSS. Thank you for the advice but the point of my posting that wasn't to personalize. I think you know that I have a lot of respect for you, but I'd appreciate if we stick to debating the merits/demerits of the ideas and not the credentials of the speaker.

Apologies for the double post. Removed

If you roll on the throttle while turning in, or have it on already, then what happens to the line the bike will take? In other words, does it run wide if you have throttle on at the beginning of the turn? If it does run wide, how does one handle that later in the turn? CF Rolling on at turn-in is not the same as Maintenance Throttle. I will check my reference material. http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=540 12. Coordinating the exact roll on to stabilize the bike at the brake off/quick flick point. When you drop a bike into a turn quickly there is an optimum opening of the throttle, which maintains good stability through that transition. The focus on this is to see if you can grab the right amount of throttle right away to get that instant stability. -Keith Code Comments?

If you roll on the throttle while turning in, or have it on already, then what happens to the line the bike will take? In other words, does it run wide if you have throttle on at the beginning of the turn? If it does run wide, how does one handle that later in the turn? CF Rolling on at turn-in is not the same as Maintenance Throttle. I will check my reference material.

Okay,...I may be mixing some Nick Ienatsch in there. My bad on the Maintenance throttle, but I'll still look it up in my TOTW. And yes, I do trackride. I don't get enough tracktime though.

Holding the clutch in and throttle on is called "speed shifting" and is hard on the clutch, wears it out too soon. It's not needed and doesn't really help anything. Just roll off the throttle for a moment, shift the gear. When I do commute, one can go from 1st-6th, around town, and back down, never going over 5 or 6K (usually 3-4k), shifting as needed up or down. It's easy, give it a try. CF I've never done the speed shifting before, so I guess I won't continue it. My off-track riding is fine. The only area I am not sure about though is on the track- if I'm going fast down the straight, coming to the end and I'm in say, 4th gear, coming up to the turn, do you downshift while braking and your speed is coming down? After the turn? I don't think mid-turn... Approaching the turn you have a braking zone. It is during your heavy braking that you want to execute the downshifting to setup the proper gear for the drive through the turn, where ideally you are at the top of the meat of the powerband at your exit point. After your braking zone (and this is important) you want to have a point where you intend to let-off the brakes and a point where you initiate your countersteer.

I think you've established yourself around here as more than "just some guy on the internet". Just my opinion. This has been my habit and I've been trying to train it out of myself. Are you now saying that I was making the correct control inputs all along? (error...not processing...error Will Robinson) I'd like to quote Keith Code in saying, "It doesn't matter what you ride or where you ride, the principles remain the same" I think that performing turn-in at maintenance throttle would work because: 1- The Chassis and suspension are settled 2- No drivetrain lash when getting back in the gas leaned over I haven't done Lvl1 yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but isn't that one of the goals of the Throttle Control, no brakes drill? To train the rider to go into the corner at maintenance throttle, ON the gas? Thanks Slowass for bringing up your "basic" question. Topics like this help us all.

Racer, you okay bud? Ordinarily you'd be willing to backup your statements. Some of us have come to expect and look forward to that from you. C'Mon, don't back out on us now.

Yep. You got it. Once you reach the desired lean angle, stop pushing on the inside bar and smoothly roll on the throttle. Closed throttle on turn-in???? Whatever happened to turning in at maintenance throttle?

Okay, a confession: I've crashed every way possible except highside. I'd like to avoid it , but considering that it's on my mind I'm probably creating the situation by my focus. Now that's out of the way, I've noticed that I can get on the gas while at full lean and feel for traction, being aware of not breaking the tire loose. What's the proper use of throttle if I were to experience breaking the rear loose at full lean?

He said something about 11-12.5 degrees for a racebike. All I know is that he said you 'don't want the swingarm to go flat when you get on the gas' because "the geometry stops working for you and begins to work against you". He's a lot more technical than I am, but I enjoy trying to understand it. I just assumed that you could help me out a bit with your knowledge of the technical side of things. I suppose one of these days I'll take a suspension seminar. I read about one that Dan Kyle did one awhile back, Paul Thede does them periodically, and Dave Moss does them once in awhile too.

So I should be able to reduce preload a both ends, thereby giving me more overall height while maintaining geometry? What's this business with swingarm angle?

From what I understood from your post, it's better to setup geometry with ride-height adjustments. However, the spring is what gives rebound potential. As the spring is compressed it wants to return (rebound) that energy somewhere, and that's where the rebound circuit come in-the attempt to regulate the rate at which that energy is transferred. I'm not sure I agree with NO preload. Not sure I agree with half either and I'll tell you why. Most of the surface imperfections that will affect the rider are bumps. In theory there should be an equal number of bumps as are dips, but there just aren't and even if there were, they still don't have the same impact on the rider's feel of the road surface. I agree with you that we need the potential of the travel available to us. In my humble opinion (grain of salt) in a ideal setup suspension we should use 99.9% of travel at the hardest braking/bumps/acceleration points that we will ever encounter on that track on that day during an event. The softest spring that will give us this, and still give geometry range appropriate to maintain vehicle control will be best. The damping circuits would then only be used to control the movement artifacts that present themselves. Now onto your 1/2: Wouldn't about 2/3s work better? Considering that we see more bumps and that we wouldn't need as much top out potential. Throw me a bone here, I'm trying to get all this straight in my head.

Thanks for the quick response Racer. I had hoped to bait you into this discussion :-) So you're saying that I should crunch the spring about 1/2 way? What's this business about setting up a bike with enough spring to eliminate the need for preload that I've heard/ read so much about?

Purely a theoretical discussion but this is something that has been bugging me for the longest: I’ve long since been curious to learn more about adjusting suspension and chassis geometry. To learn more, I bought Dave Moss’ Intro to Sportbike suspension DVD. At the time I purchased it, I didn’t feel that it was an entry level DVD. I’ve watched it several times over about 1½ year’s time and feel that I could now at least have a decent conversation about the subject. (My review here http://www.cbrforum.com/m_268287/tm.htm) One thing I’ve learned is that setting sag is so important and should be done first. When I had my suspension done last year, I just installed it and rode away. I tweaked rear preload a bit, but only a when going to 2 up and I constantly struggled to get it back. I noticed that I liked the feeling from having the rear set higher than it was on the stock suspension (a healthy 220 fully dressed). Well, I have a proper suspension now. How will I know when I should raise the clevis on my Ohlins shock to give more ride height versus adding preload (we’re talking 1 up riding here)? What are the pros/cons of each?

Did anyone notice him doing it again at the Valencia race? Did anyone notice Casey Stoner also doing it? Did anyone notice that it was clearly during Oh- Sh** moments?

Sure, I can see a couple benefits. I guess I just decided to triage learning it. What benefits do you see? What do you mean by "triage learning it"? I can imagine that it would produce a smoother downshift, by giving less chance to get it wrong and getting rear wheel hop (done that). I can also see the benefit for the competitor in less time. In theory it should be gentler on the transmission. So it seems a superior way of downshifting with no ill side effects. On the other hand, I've learned using the clutch so well, that it's probably my best mastered skill (LOL) and I don't need to spend but a few pennies on the control movements to bang 3 quick downshifts. To triage learning to clutchless downshift means that I have other learning priorities that take precedence and I'd rather give them the attention and leave this to another time. It doesn't mean that I'll never get around to it, just not now.

OEM spec for my 2002 F4i is 36/42. Doesn't specify Max/min or anything else. Let's remember that manufacturers try to make this as simple as possible for the squidly and the egghead types alike.

That's right, you did say that earlier. I'm a bit greedy, I like a lot of traction and some to spare CF I also reduce pressure in cooler weather.

Sure, I can see a couple benefits. I guess I just decided to triage learning it.

What are you referring to specifically? BTW board is now up to v2.3.6 hopefully that will help with some things. I hope that what we're seeing regarding spam is an improvement. By no means is it fool proof, or to the point of "set it and forget it". Take a look at the IP.Board forums. There are several strategies there other admins have posted for dealing with SPAM issues on this software. If you need any help, PM me and leave a phone number, or I'll send mine.

No to the inertia thing. He only sticks his leg out when he's doing a hairbrained passing manuever deep into the corner. I doubt there is a technical reason he does it. Let's remember that EVERYTHING Rossi does is not magic. :-)