jps600rr

Following the guidance in TOWII ie the ideal weight distribution for the motorcycle during cornering. I assume the best body position is as far forward on the bike as possible, thus enabling a higher level of throttle, to ensure the best weight distribution, which is approximately 30-40 front 60- 70 back. So to me the position of the body forward or back determines the relationship between cornering speed and lean angle. James.

On the question of braking, on my CBR600RR I have found the brakes very easy to modulate, it takes a full hard pull to make the brakes bite hard, small changes in lever pressure only make very small changes in braking until you get to the end of the lever travel. I found on my F4i that the brakes bit harder sooner, and were much more difficult to modulate. I have found from my riding on the street that if I want to slow down when leaned over a light touch on the brakes to start with, and then stand the bike up, as I comes up you brake harder, you have to be progressive about it. Standing the bike up and then braking means you have covered more distance in a given time period. I think what happens on the street is that some peole just give up on the front brake, and stand it up, and slam on the rear, which is very diffcult to modulate. And off the road we go. Trail braking under race conditions cleary requires a great touch, but I think for the street rider trail braking has advantages. In may ways it is no different from braking hard in a straight line if you want to stop quickly you need to know how to modulate the brakes, and with a little practise you can get very good. I agree that on the track if you set your entry speed reasonably well you should not have to touch the brakes at all, and you can certainly concentrate on the line, and momentum. I have the DVD, and I still think that the CSS is great. James.

Trailing the brake: OK, just going to put out one thing here, when the brake is being trailed, does the bike want to hold it's line or run wide? Will there be more or less effort to turn it? CF I understand exactly what your point is, but one can apply the necessary force to the bike to turn it, but it does take effort, weight lifting has its advantages some times. In addition to this letting off the brakes, and waiting a short time for the bike to settle means you are gliding. Also a fine touch with the brakes is required, but I think that is a necessary skill to learn. Having the ability to trail brake to some degree is a big advantage compared to those who have never tried it. many have mastered the throttle. But the brake. is another story. If you have come in too hot staying on the brakes can stop you from running wide. Also the harder you can brake the deeper you can go into the corner before you turn, because eliminating the glide distance is a significant advantage. i has seen photos of Doug chandler hard on the brakes, while going through a corner.

Trailing the brake: OK, just going to put out one thing here, when the brake is being trailed, does the bike want to hold it's line or run wide? Will there be more or less effort to turn it? CF I understand exactly what your point is, but one can apply the necessary force to the bike to turn it, but it does take effort, weight lifting has its advantages some times.

The inherent problem with that logic is that when the front end is compressed beyond compliance, you're far more likely to lose traction (and fall down). Turn in is as fast as the rider makes it. Yes, the bike's geometry has a bit to do with it, and having the front compressed and rear extended creates an instability which favors 'twitchiness' which makes the bike want to 'fall' into a turn. However, this same result can be had with a concise input to the bars. Ok just to clarify I break very, very hard, gently let out the brake, and turn with some pressure on the brakes, but the front end is not fully compressed, and I do contersteer the bike wants to turn very fast, which is good.I think this is the fun part about riding, nothing like the feeling of hard braking, it is also a good work out to. Strictly from a turn-in perspective, no, being hard on the brakes will not improve the speed. It's all about rider input. Trail braking can work, and can be effective. However, the amount of concentration rises significantly and the majority of people I see trail-braking can't cope with it and either end up overbraking or falling down.

It seems to me that we have a relationship between how hard we brake,downshift,slowdown, and the turn in point should the bike be sliding slightly just before turn in, the harder we are on the brakes the faster it should turn in, but if we release the brake, and then turn does that not lead to a slower turn in? To me this transition seems to be the most critical of all the issues in maintaining high corner speed. Is trail braking a consequence of a fast turn in? James.

James--ALWAYS brake first. Scrub some speed off, then you don't have to rev the motor as high to match the rpms. Guys that can do this well don't even have to use the clutch on the downshift. Downshifting first is very hard on the bike--chain, clutch, engine. Brake pads are cheap, and meant to slow the bike, so don't use the engine as a brake. Make sense? CF I understand what you are saying, I do brake first myself but I may be too close to the red line after the downshift. I think the question is how close to the red line/which gear do you want to be in through the corner, depends on how fast you can come out of the corner. The 1000 seems to be much more flexible compared to the 600. James.

I am downshifing at too higher speed, some people say downshift first, but if your speed is too high, then you need to brake first and then downshift. James.

Thanks, It is most likley a rear, and front skid, downshifting, and applying front brake at the same time. It only happens for a very short space of time, just before I turn in. You tend to notice the front more in this situation. Better come to school before I get too carried away. Thanks. James.

While hard on the brakes? maybe, but still highly unlikely. A front tire skid on a race tire that is up to temp is VERY hard to do. About the only way you can do it is to bottom the suspension and then 'pogo' the front end where it hops off the ground a bit. Otherwise, you're more likely to go over the bars... now I'm not outright calling you a 'liar', but I really think that if you had some video you would see something different from a front end slide/skid... Not I can clearly hear the skid, no brakes

I have noticed when making an aggressive down shift from med RPM to high RPM the front tire skids for a split second, the back tire is fine, very stable but the front seems out of control for as split second. Then it regains traction very quickly, and the bike is stable, this happens just before I start to make the bike lean. James.

Thanks Cobie for your input, I do blip the throttle but at low RPM the clutch makes it smooth, I will try it without the clutch and see what happens. Are you saying that it is possble to elimate most of the clutch useage apart from stopping? Good input on the throttle, I take the free play out of the cable, and then roll on the throttle smoothly when I feel the tension, but an adjustment here may help. But that first crack open of the throttle is a very very small movement indeed on the CBR. It's seems like a worth while investment to use your bikes at your school, and find out exactly how the bike needs to be setup. Sinice I live in AZ that may be the best way to go anyway. I need to check the school schedule to come work with you guy's. Thanks. James.

I agree that not using the clutch at all is an advantage on the track, and this works well when you can keep the bike in the high RPM's.certainly a 600 can be kept at very high RPM's. Riding like that requires space, and a known good surface. Your comments are certainly directed to track riding. Also the slipper clutch is standard on most bikes today, so clutch slippage is built in. Part of my observations are that the sports bikes are realy designed for the track. Thanks. James.

I have found on my CBR600RR that the off to on throttle reponse can be a bit abrupt, instead of going completely off the throttle, sliping the clutch a bit when necessary seems to smooth out the bike, it is usually only ncessary in very low speed turns. Also holding the throttle open, and applying the brake gently keeps the bike very smooth. It seems to be a common complaint from bike testers that the CBR's have an abrupt off to on throttle response, even at higher RPM's, but I have not seen an issue at the higher RPM's myself. I agree that using the clutch at higher speeds most of the time is not good, when I down shift too early, or if I don't like to the look of the road surface, when shifting at higher RPM. I will let the clutch out in a controlled slow manner. The track, and the street are different enviroments, and require a slightly different approach. On the track using the clutch will cost you lap time, on the street using the clutch to modulate rear wheel power at the right time will keep you up right. Thanks. James.

I have a question about the use of the clutch in controlling the back wheel, if holding the throttle steady helps the bike correct itself in a coner slide what effect does engaging the clutch have, if the clutch is used in its friction zone could we not regulate the power to the back wheel and control the slide with fine control? Also what would be the effects on the bike dynamics, and ground clearance? I am thinking of a rear slide not a front wheel slide. To add to this I was reading an artical the other day that said if you get into a corner too hot, the throttle, or putting the bike in nuteral would work. (I think they mean engage the clutch.) but do not chop the throttle. Sinice I ride on the street I have not created a real slide to test this theory of clutch control. Any input would be apreciated. Thanks. James.

I was using the stock tires, feeling my way waiting for a slide, just waiting to gas it, but I did not feel any movement at all, very stable, remember this was not a race enviroment, and I spent a lot of time warming the tires up. I have read two different accounts about the stock tires, but if you are pushing it and at race speeds then you definetily need better tires. overall I am very impressed by this ninja 250, it is so much fun to ride. James.

In TOW2 the only reference I find to braking in a corners, is that one has to bring the bike up right, and then apply the brakes, I cannot remember way were else it talks about braking in a corner, but I will re check. I find it easy to turn the bike when I am off the front brake.I have not unsed trail braking myself, I have found the CSS methord to be more natural to me, to me if I brake when leaned over the ultimate lean angle has to be less compared to no brakes at all, also the traction at the back wheel has to be less if I am braking while leaning. When I was a kid it did a lot of push bike racing, on thin tires, and I learned not to touch the brakes when taking a corner, or I would go down, so that feeling has stuck with me into the motorbike world. Thanks. James.

Many top riders talk about trail braking in the corner, to reduce speed before the apex, Keith says all the braking should be done before we turn the bike. Riders also say that trail braking makes the bike turn faster because it changes the front end angles, bike pitches forward under breaking. Also if you apply the brakes in the corner the bike seems to stand up which is the opposite effect of trail braking Could anyone clarify these issues for me. Thanks. James.

I always do my leaning practise in a clean car park, usually I do not lean much on the public roads. The Ninja 250 seems easy to get to high lean angles, I was not actually trying to get the knee down, I was just working on my body posistion, I seem to be able to move my off the ninja a lot more than my CBR, it may just be the bike ergo's I am think of trying a ZX-6R, it seems you sit more in the bike, on the CBR you seem to sit more on top of the bike. Thanks for your inputs. James.

Well I picked up my Ninja 250, I did some gental leaning, and riding for about 20 miles, took it out the next day with my full leathers on, and got my knee down, the bike hanldes great, and is very stable in the turn, very easy to make small adjustments to the lean angle. I was going at about 20 MPH in a 30 foot circle. The funny thing is I was just pushing the lean angle bit by bit feeling comfortable, and touch down, not really trying, in fact I through it was a peg feeler. The stock tires hold very well, and the suspension seem to be doing a great job. For some reason I can't get my CBR600RR over at this angle, and I cannot get as comfortable on the CBR as I can on the ninja. James.

I have taken the 250 out, and it is very stable through the corners, as i see it if you are pushing hard through the conrners its only a matter of time before you go down, I dont want to wad the 600, or but a set of shark skins, just yet.The 250 has a reputation as a very tuff little bike. Great for the track, or racing. I would not mind racing at the 250 level in the CCS. James. quote name='racer' date='Nov 16 2006, 07:56 PM' post='3665'] Hey James, That is a wise conclusion. I do recommend upgrading the suspension before track day. I think you saw the post re: sources like Muzzy. Talk to the guy doing 1:40 @ Willow for more hints. Your thoughts are the ones that count! Good luck! Racer

I have noticed that CSS will not be comming to Arizona in 07, any particular reason for this? James.

Thank you Jon for that information I read that the Ninja 250 can do 1.40 at willow, I did notice just by sitting on the bike that the suspension is prety soft, I have a CBR 600RR, but I think I can learn more on the Ninja, also the Ninja is a lot less expensive to fix. a lot of people cannot understand why I am not buying a 1000cc superbike sinice I ride the 600cc well, but I think i need more practise on the fundamentals. James. James, I did a couple of trackdays with my Ninja 250 and the organization that put on the events would not allow riders in the "beginner" group to pass in the corners. What that meant was that I would find a roadblock in every corner of people on machines with way better suspension, tires, and horsepower going very slow. Since I wasn't supposed to pass, I would have to follow them through at a snail's pace, only to have them rocket away from me when the curve ended. When I would get to the next turn I would catch up to them as they slowed WAAAAY down and then I would have to follow them again. What I ended up doing was short shifting on the straights just to give myself an open corner to ride through. Maybe some other organizations don't limit beginners with the "no pass" rule and then the 250 is a good bike to learn on. I spent some money on fork upgrade, rear shock, clip-ons, rear sets, and Muzzy exhaust. I lent my 250 to a very skillful rider (ex AMA) for one trackday and it was amazing to how fast that little thing could be ridden. Hope this helps. Jon

I just purchased a Ninja 250, to improve my cornering skills, I did not like the idea of trying things on my CBR600rr, I have come to the conclusion that until I can push the 250 close to the limit there is not point in trying it on a 600cc. I assme I can bring the Ninja250 to the school days. The only thing I have noticed is that the suspension will need an upgrade. I was also suprised to see the Ninja 250 can do 1.40 at willow. It's also very suprising to me that there are a lot of street riders with 600cc, and 1000cc bike's who think they were born with Doug Chandlers skill. When you tell people you are purchasing a Ninja 250 they cannot undestand if you have a reasonable skill level why you are not on a 1000cc super bike. The level of knowlede out there is just so poor. it's sad.

If a ninja 250 can run a measured lap of 1.40 at willow springs, and we can only use 10HP through the coners why do we not learn cornering on a ninja 250, and then progress to a bigger bike to get down the straights quicker, it seems that starting your cornering learning on a big bike is not so good, besides if you wad a ninja 250, it is cheap to fix. Did I miss something. we are not bike limited but rider limited. Why does the SB school not use the ninja 250? Thanks. James.