Bullet

Hi jody, It's clear you've worked very hard on improving it considerably since your first pictures for sure. Many riders do obsess about it a bit, though it's something thats the icing on the cake for improving lap times and speed, and is certainly of lower value in the overall puzzle than say the visual skills. Your body position certainly isn't bad, I think when you do level 3 you'll understand a little more and it will come together nicely for you. I suggest you concentrate on working with your coaches when you next attend the school for level 3 to work on ironing out your body position. Your coach will be able to help much more than seeing a single photo, as that just a snapshot in time, and not the whole picture. (i.e. how you get into the corner, what you do mid turn, what you do coming off the turn) Your lean angle will come with more speed as it's a consequence of line, speed and how sharp the turn is in essence. How you give yourself enough tima and space and the ablity to use that space and increase your speed you've already covered in level 2, and I'm afraid you'll just have keep working on it, get the visual timing we've taught you right, and in time you'll be able to use it better, you'll be comfortable carrying more speed into the turns. More speed, more lean essentially. I'm not sure we really got a clear answer on the "why" we lean off, and the benefits it provides us, but as long you understand the "why" you're doing it, the "benefits it gives you" and you're comfortable with that, I'm happy. Bullet

Yeah, you could say that, though so far this year has been a hell of a contrast. So unpredicatble the UK weather it seems. Yeah, gutted about your weather predicament, my heart bleeds for you. Must be a real ain having to clean all those flies of the front everyday, whereas at least ours are occasionally cleaned by mother nature! Bullet

Thanks Bullet. The more I look at the pictures (through the 2nd chicane at Thunderbolt) I feel that I am over just too much. I see pics of Ben Spies or Jorge Lorenzo with what looks like their chins on the ground. Should we all aspire for similar? Granted they have infinitely more skill than I posses and better equipment... Thanks for your help. Jody. Not sure which levels you've coveed with us Jody, have you done levels 2 and 3? I think we should start by thinking why do we lean off in the first place? What benefits do we get from this? With respect to Lorenzo et al, I think if we look at this pic, how much is he actually leaning off, and how much is lean angle? How physically difficult did you find leaning off like this Jody, and you talked of chicanes, is it difficult for you to get across the bike from this position whilst keeping the bike stable? Bullet

I've tried the weighting the inside peg, and it hurts my knees when I did it, and is always a sure sign that I'm loading the inside, and not the outside peg. Jody, as for the pic, and your ability to lean off, personally, I'd say your actually leaning off too much and unlessing your practising a hook turn? Thats going to be very hard work to hang of that far all the time. Bullet

Thats another great piece of advice there my friend. Thats in essence what I'm doing really also, like you say it's not a concious choiec per say to go at 50%, just happens to be about how quick it is. 'm wth you on the RP, though only if there is nothing more permament to use, and sometimes there isn't. The no brakes thing is really great for planning your lines, approach speed etc anyway, and I think we all benefit from having it as a starter for 10 every track we goto. I think as long as you're not dragging the brakes or clutch, it's not a problem. Whatever your comfy and works for you I say. Bullet

No problem mate, you're more than welcome. Hope it's proving useful for your understanding. Bullet

It's nice to know that even a coach has such a conservative approach towards a new track. Do you do this the day before the students arrive? Thanks, Andy No, typically it's on a school day, I'll start to do this on the sighting laps whilst the students are doing there own. Once the introductions are done for my first round of students, I almost always have 2-3 laps of a track anyway (regardless of whether I've been before), to get myself re-acuqainted with the bike, the track, the surface, just to get myself warmed up anyway. As this session has the student practising with no brakes, I do the same, and it helps me get my eye in so to speak, as it could have been many weeks since I last rode a bike. Is all simple stuff eh? Bullet

OK, As the big cheese has had a stab, I'll share mine. As I no longer (well, very rarely ride on road these days), I'll stick to track and how I define my starting position and work through getting to a good speed. I try and ride my first lap or two at a new track without brakes or at worst very light brakes and with minimal gear changes (if I can get by with say 4th, I'll use that and just wind it on and off like a scooter). No leaning off typically, and nothing like knee down. I would say this would be about my 50% speed and I use this as my baseline. Over the next few laps I'll start to understand where the track goes, and over the period of the next session (if on a trackday), I'll build upto probably 90% speed in this session and thats essentially my baseline for refinement of things from there leveraging the drills. If I have some drill aspect to work on, (and I normally do), I'll almost always try and work on no gears (staying high) and use as little brakes as I can get away with. Just helps me concentrate on it so much better. Bullet

Essentially Andy, the definition is what you define it to be, there is no X + Y + Z defintion thats universal for all riders in all situations I'm afraid. It is different between track and street we've established because if we step back, we all agree that there are real life hazards and physical dangers on the road which don't exist on track which therefore define we have lower threshold for our actions due to the potential consequences. Bullet

I guess the overriding question thats sprung to my mind in reading this thread guys is this. What makes a good reference point for you and why? Bullet

Hi Bullet, I've learned that for street riding, that if the tires aren't biting, that loading the front tire a little will reduce centrifugal forces on the rear tire, while simultaneously giving the front tire enough weight for traction. On the street, I would do that by feathering the rear brake without changing the throttle or anything else about the bike. This also stretches out the fork a bit. And while this will slow down the bike a little, it won't slow it down as much as a high side or low side would. Doesn't California SuperBike School advocate changing the body position to do this? Thanks, Andy Hi Andy, Could you define for me, "not biting" and what it means to you? What does that feel like? Trying to understand and for you to define it so everyone understand it from your perspective. Most of the centrifugal force in the turns comes from rotational forces of the wheels, and this provides the bike with stability. I'm assuming your talking about the sideways force from being in the turn when leaned over? Using the rear brake does help the bike turn a little I understand, though its quite difficult for many to use when the bike is leaned over. I understand from colleagues who are excellent off road riders that it's used for this purpose though it's application on a track is much less. I personally never use the rear brake apart from some slow speed maneouvering, as I can't easily move my feet from optimal footpeg positioning to get to the brake lever to be honest. I think if you really needed to slow the bike down, certainly any brakes is better than a lowside and a crash. I think it's important to define that you only get a highside from braking rear traction, and then it quickly re-gaining this and the subsequent re-loading of the rear suspension spring which throws the rider over the top of the bike. This is typically a problem on the exit of turns rather than into turns when riders apply throttle. Bullet

Have you seen this? They trail brake so hard that they seem on the verge of losing control on every turn, IMHO. Any comments? Andy Yeah, Big MotoGP fan for sure. You must remember here though that these guys are riding on the best bikes, with the best forks, and tyres and grip you and I can only dream of. There is an enormous amount of difference in the grip these guys have over what you and I could ever get hold of. You shouldn't think you can get away with anything like the same, because I can assure you, you won't (personal experience on slicks has told me so, as has the resulting repair bill, though I felt like a MotoGP god for those few seconds before the crash ). Additionally they have years of experience and their sense of speed, their attention they have on the feel of the bike and the feedback they have will be way above our levels. I think probably the last most important point is they're not paying for their bikes when/if they lob it, which of course even the best do on occasion. :-) If I think about my own riding I don't trail brake for the majority of my riding, though If i'm really at 90-100% of my speed, then I definitely do. Its' worth doing, where it benefits you, and in reality it's really of benefit in my opinion in gaining laptimes little else. Bullet

Summer??? In UK??? Isn't that over already???? hahahaha I wish I could do Level 1 and THEN have my summer!!! Don't the really hard-core nutters in the UK ride year round? Er no. I only ride in the summer, on track, and I avoid the rain if I could. If it wasn't for Johnny H forcing us out at schools, I'd quite happily keep snug in the warmth of thr truck. :-) Joking aside, riding in the rain definitely improves your feel for traction no end! Bullet

Thanks for that post AceBobby, I think it offers a really great perspective and a great example of it's application too. I think we are getting some consensus that its a personal thing and sense of self, being aware of either road conditions or being able to practise the drills you've learned. There are some really great contributions in this thread about what it means to them which is useful to everyone. Keep it coming guys, share your thoughts on what it means to you and why, there are lots of people reading this thread, and all of your experiences are really valid as there are bound to other people at your level who your thoughts will mean a lot to. Bullet (UK Riding Coach) Bullet

Thanks for your great note. I'm sure it strikes a chord with many people in a similiar situation to yourself. Your intentions and desires are very common at the school and I've no doubt we'll be able to help you make some progress on your day. We look forward to seeing you on the day, and don't worry, it'll be here before you know it! :-) Bullet (UK Riding Coach)

Hi Bullet, Yes, what you say makes sense. But what I see doesn't...With the pointy profile of Continental Sport Attack tires, the contact patch seems larger when leaned far over than when standing up. But the traction is stressed to the limit already with cornering loads. Also the compound is softer on the sides, which explains the sides being shredded. Upon closer examination, the rear tire's tread seems worn on the trailing side, as if it was shredded from trail braking rather than from driving out or power sliding. Makes sense, since I ride a Ninja 650R with 68 horsepower--not enough power to inadvertently shred tires--and I have on occasion been forced to brake while leaned over. To find what it feels like to brake at the limit, I practiced in dirt, at first, and then in a paved parking lot. My front chatters in the dirt, but doesn't seem to do that on asphalt. With the old tires, which were more slippery, the front used to chatter on asphalt too--almost as though I had ABS. Is this consistent with what I would find in level 3? Thanks. Ok, lets start at the beginging. Firstly, the contact path is at it's biggest when the bike is sat upright and being worked, (though, without confusing this, some tyres do have large sides too, though race tyres with very sharp profiles are more likely to be this rather than road tyres). You must remember that when you're sat on the bike, and when you're loading the bike with actions such as braking, turning(which has the forces of the bike being forced into the tyre), driving the bike, there is an amount of deflection in the tyre and that contact patch becomes larger. This is one of the reasons its so important to set your tyre pressures correctly to allow for the tyre deflection as the tyre temperature changes. The observation that you've noted on your tyres isn't likely to be at the limits of the bike or the tyre, its a consequence of the tyre being worked hard and the softer compound sides moving around and seperating from the carcass of the tyre. If you looked at any road tyre when it's been leaned on entusiastically should we say, you'd note this observation and its a sign of workloads put into the tyre and into the surafce. Its nothing to be worried about. I doubt unless you were on very, very loose or very wet surfaces , that you would be power sliding a 68 horspower bike, and indeed from my own experience its actually quite difficult to do on even a litre bike on modern tyres in the dry, and they have upwards of 150bhp. You're observations of braking limits are very consistent with what you would see and feel on the brake rig. You should also be aware that its very easy to lock the front up attempting this and have a low side doing practising this, so please be extra cautious trying this on a bike without our lean bike outriggers which stops the bike from fallng over entirely. Coming together for you? Bullet

Thanks, Bullet. Standard Motorcycle Safety Foundation training suggests that 2 seconds interval is needed for stopping and reaction distance between moving vehicles, 4 seconds for road hazards. It occurred to me that this would be for a vehicle traveling in a straight line with 100% of tire traction available for braking. On my motorcycle while leaned over 40 degrees, for instance, there must be less traction for braking. Can someone please describe how best to determine braking limits? Regarding cornering, Keith wrote about "bands of traction", implying that different signals sent from the tires indicate different limits of traction have been reached. It also implies different dynamics come into play. There must be similar bands of traction in braking, each with its own telltale signals. Without prying any secrets from future lessons, to which I am looking forward, my question is, "If I ride with my tires just on the verge of squirming, with me sitting bolt upright without hanging off, what percentage of traction do I have available for braking?" How do I know when I've reached the limit for the traction available? Thanks. A bike does indeed have less available grip when leaned over, and in most situations on most bikes they have a tendency to stand up and want to run in a straight line when you brake in the turns, so it's to be avoided wherever possible, though clearly those kind of emergency moments you have to do what you have to do, though attempting to brake with the bike on a fatter part of the tyre will most definitely assist with traction. As for your question, how do you know when you've reached the limit of braking power, well, we do have a drill and a bike rig for riders to be able to feel those sensations. Funnily enough it's called the brake rig and you get to ride it on level 3. It takes quite some effort to loose brake traction when on the brakes in all honesty, though poor application can cause it, i.e. too much too quickly, whereas smoother application and transition of the weight from both wheels onto the front is a much better application. I'll leave it open for you to experience the sensation when you go on the brake rigbike, but essentially it's all about feeling and the sensations between brake lever, tyre, suspension and road surface and it's excpetionally variable dependant on these factors. Make sense? Bullet (UK Riding Coach)

I guess my question to you would be are you able to ride with power slides coming out of the corner, rear wheel steering? I'm thinking not, so essentially whilst thats maybe a motorbikes 100% potential, I'd say thats not yours. When considering this, you should be thinking whats my 100%, not the bike, and what's safe for the conditions. I'd suggest in most cases, your ability comes to an end before the bike, and you'll meet one of the survival reaction barriers such as too much throttle, or target fixation before you reach tyre and bike limitation on the roads. I'd suggest that you don't worry about cornering G's of tyres, because I doubt anyone could really tell you a real figure, and even if they could, i doubt it would do you much good anyway as you'd have no reference for it anyway to tell when you were approaching it. On the road, you need to have enough attention for road hazards, to be able to realistically stop in the distance you can see into, and be aware of your speed, road position and so on. Anymore than this, and you're probably getting into above your 70% I'd suggest. I hope this provides with an answer that makes some sense for you? Bullet (UK Riding coach)

Glad you've enjoyed the school and it's massively helped improve your riding skills. Will we be seeing you there this year? Bullet (UK Riding coach)

Trail braking and loading the front is what you'd call much more advanced riding tech. It's fair to say that there is a very fine line between being on the bike, and having it tuck when people do trail brake. If you watch bike racing, you'll notice that the vast majority of racers who crash, crash on the way into the corner trail braking. Regardless of whether you enter the first part of the corner trail braking, or on no throttle, you're still loading the front, though to differing degrees. From this point, regardless, you have to apply the throttle rule to get that stability. Racers do it, we all need to do it. You must not confuse the start of a turn to the mid and the end point. Hope that helps clear it up for you? Bullet (UK Riding coach)

It very much depends on the bike you ride and your level of skill really. For example, a litre bike in line 4 makes massive power 10-12K, so you'd have to ask the question whether you'd want it to be there mid corner when you come back to the throttle, and most likely the answer to that quetsion is no. To little revs would also be a problem, say if you had it around 3K, that would also be a challenge, as bike's don't neccesarily drive that well really from then. You need to decide for yourself, based on bike, and ensuring the bike can drive smoothly and cleanly when you get back to the throttle, not too much, not too little. Essentially the golidilocks amount of throttle is for you to find out. Sorry couldn't be more specific, but hope that helps you make you think about it a little to deicide? Bullet (UK Riding coach)

Yeah, I'd say that was a pretty great example, reckon you've got that drill nailed! So, explanations? Now you've had some time to think of a good enough excuse for us all, care to cough it up? Your ok though we hope, all joking askide? Bullet (UK Riding Coach)

Hi Firebeast, Thanks for your post on our Forum. OK, Firstly, glad you enjoyed reading Keith's bible. Whilst it can be a little tough going at times, it really has so much great information in to read, and keep going back to again and again, and again. Have a read of it, go try something, go back and re-read it, and so on. Its right what you've observed, now your more aware of what you're doing, you'll be thinking more about the what, the whys, etc. etc. I'm afraid the only way to make this easier is to slow down a little and try and concentrate on just one thing at once otherwise you can just overwhelm the poor brain. :-) As for your questions : - 1) How do I get to know where to turn, (well, we teach that on Level 1) 2)Lean angel is combination of speed, of the line and the radius of the turn and your ability to turn the bike quickly. I'm glad to say, we also teach these aspects on level 1. 3), it always becomes more difficult to turn a bike at greater speed because of the gyroscopic rotational force of the front wheel, however, most riders can dramatically improve their ability to turn their bike quickly and would you believe it, we have a drill for that also on level 1. Should you decide to visit us at a School date, all of your areas of observation and interest will be covered in great depth in the classroom with Andy Ibbott, and then practiced on track in a systematic manner with an on track coach to remove confusion and to ensure you really understand are able to leave the day with improvement in your skills. Additionally, we have great fun doing it too! :-) I hope this helped with your query? Bullet (UK Riding coach) No problem my friend, I'm new to the forum myself, as I'm going to be helping out a bit on the Forum where I can. We do indeed visit SA, normally twice a year, early in the year, and again at the end. We run normal school's essentially, but all of the organisation, bikes etc is provide in country. I've never personally been to SA, but I here the track at Kyalami is incredible, the days are very well attended, and the weather is great to boot. With luck, we'll see you either this, or next year, and we can continue to help you improve your cornering! Bullet (UK Riding coach) Thanks man. I'm definitely going to try and get out to SA in this next year, possibly in the new year might work as with all pretty much all the coaching staff in the UK, I have a fulltime job as well and so its vacation time for me and you only get so much of it I guess. Glad you've made some improvement, practice, practice and more practice is the key word, going out and enjoying yourself, but maybe take sometime out to do something with a purpose of just learning and understanding is a good plan that always works well for me personally. Yeah them Fireblades are plenty bike enough for anyone, they can definitely pull the skin or a rice pudding without even breaking sweat. Stay safe man. Bullet (UK Riding coach)

Hi Firebeast, Thanks for your post on our Forum. OK, Firstly, glad you enjoyed reading Keith's bible. Whilst it can be a little tough going at times, it really has so much great information in to read, and keep going back to again and again, and again. Have a read of it, go try something, go back and re-read it, and so on. Its right what you've observed, now your more aware of what you're doing, you'll be thinking more about the what, the whys, etc. etc. I'm afraid the only way to make this easier is to slow down a little and try and concentrate on just one thing at once otherwise you can just overwhelm the poor brain. :-) As for your questions : - 1) How do I get to know where to turn, (well, we teach that on Level 1) 2)Lean angel is combination of speed, of the line and the radius of the turn and your ability to turn the bike quickly. I'm glad to say, we also teach these aspects on level 1. 3), it always becomes more difficult to turn a bike at greater speed because of the gyroscopic rotational force of the front wheel, however, most riders can dramatically improve their ability to turn their bike quickly and would you believe it, we have a drill for that also on level 1. Should you decide to visit us at a School date, all of your areas of observation and interest will be covered in great depth in the classroom with Andy Ibbott, and then practiced on track in a systematic manner with an on track coach to remove confusion and to ensure you really understand are able to leave the day with improvement in your skills. Additionally, we have great fun doing it too! :-) I hope this helped with your query? Bullet (UK Riding coach) No problem my friend, I'm new to the forum myself, as I'm going to be helping out a bit on the Forum where I can. We do indeed visit SA, normally twice a year, early in the year, and again at the end. We run normal school's essentially, but all of the organisation, bikes etc is provide in country. I've never personally been to SA, but I here the track at Kyalami is incredible, the days are very well attended, and the weather is great to boot. With luck, we'll see you either this, or next year, and we can continue to help you improve your cornering! Bullet (UK Riding coach)

well as you said, its a great opportunity to meet Keith, and it will be my first time to meet him also. Many of us are very excited about meeting the man himself. As you've attened a day, your aware the class sessions normally overrun a little, and also have little to no time in between. That said, I expect Keith will get some downtime at the lunch and also at the end of the day we normally retire of to the pub which may well be a great time to meet him when he's less full on? Be great to see you down there, and with luck you'll be able to get to do some more schools with us soon. Bullet (UK riding coach)