jcw

The reason given was that the suspension works better loaded rather than unloaded. I suppose it is similar to TOTW2. the idea of the best weight distribution coming from slowly rolling on the throttle, but the way it was presented is confusing.

OP, I see where you are coming from. David Moss has this mantra I've been seeing on his facebook videos- brake- throttle- turn. And it confused me at first. Unless you think of it as maintenance throttle rather than actually accelerating. Still, even then I'm confused a little. My impression of TOTW and reading here is that you simply don't want to get into the habit of accelerating and adding lean angle Even if at your speed and skill level you are far from the limit of the tire. As you get faster, it's simply too easy to shoot right past the warning signs of approaching the limit. At the same time you want that throttle control where you are gradually rolling on the throttle while trading off lean angle. Ideally you want to set up your corner so you can accomplish this. Obviously, it's not always possible on the street. At least that's my take... I mean when you are really lapping around a track and feeling fast and you set up the corner right and make your pivot steering input, I can't imagine rolling on the throttle at that time as well. It seems like too much is going on with the chassis much like you don't want to be moving around in your seat at this time either. Once you release the inside bar pressure, settle down in the seat, then I can see rolling on maintenance throttle. Then it's a gradual roll on the throttle while coming out of your lean.

I'll check back in after my next trackday. Follow up--- Trackday was almost washed out. I got in 1 good session and a wet one and just called it a day... I was only able to work on one thing and that was really focusing on getting a good base with the outside leg to pivot steer with the inside arm. And man was it effective! I was able to notice improved steering input speed/force(whichever is correct) and accuracy even after that one dry session. One of the side effects, though, was that I ended up more centered on the bike by mid corner and wasn't "hanging off" as much meaning I think I was carrying more lean angle. (my tires were more clean to the edge after my only dry session) I did a bad thing and played with the triple offset reducing it 1mm before the trackday as well. The difference was immediately noticeable and I let myself have several street riding days to get used to it before the trackday. I did also work on getting on the throttle as soon as I released countersteering pressure on the bars. And then focus on when I could trade lean for throttle. Found out this really mean using your vision effectively to pick out the correct exit line that lets you do this. After the trackday, I happened to read something on early apexing that made so much sense. Beginners like me will tend to turn in early thinking it's the safer line. You might even rush a corner with more entry speed because you think it's safer. But all it does is run you out of corner on the exit. It really made sense to me WHY i was having those pucker moments when I find myself on a line that was going to be too wide on exit.

Yes, I've crashed three times in one and a half years and the second one fractured my clavicle. Good thing I'm stupid and stubborn and I keep coming back for more. But I've almost got a decent degree of confidence back. Traction concerns are more imagined than real, I think. One crash was my first time on a soaking wet track and I was on DOT supercorsas, another me and another bike decided to occupy the same space at the same time going into a corner. My fault. My confidence was sapped for a while. No concerns with clearance. I've set up the bike with some good rearsets and the bike can lean farther than I dare. I'm nowhere close to dragging a foot or a knee for that matter. Here's a random pic of me on my first trackday this year. I don't think I've progressed much from this. I think I know how much lean I need, it's the effort to turn that seems excessive. But at the same time, I know I'm your typical not-so-serious beginner/intermediate trackrider and know I'm not REALLY hitting a deep apex. Right, so to stop leaning, you ease up on the countersteering pressure at the bars. The steering should fall in line and then follow the corner. Vision is something I always need to remind myself to maintain. Even though I've ridden this track for last 8 years (usually only once a year until last couple), I haven't really been serious about going fast until last 2 years. I struggle with getting on the throttle early enough. So, I think I'm for sure done with steering before getting back on the gas. It's another thing I'm working on. Thanks for the directions, I'm seeing what I may need to work on and will figure a plan of attack for my next trackday in a couple weeks.

I've seen you state the input at the bar is harder not faster but I'm not sure how that differs. If you push harder, doesn't that move the bars faster? Pushing harder means a greater force at the bar which in turn turns the bar faster. Not sure how you have one without the other. I must be missing the subtlety of the difference you are trying to convey.

Pivot steering. That's what it was called. Found it in the linked thread from Lnewqban. Thanks Where was it that I read that steering with one hand is more accurate for most people than steering with both hand? Was it CSS?

Right, so ive been working on my body position not to hang off so much but positioning myself to make effective input for countersteering at the bars. Ive read about the technique of pushing the inside bar and bracing with the opposite (outside) leg. And the wall example. I need to remember to do this more as i believe i tend to steer with both hands and from both feet or my butt. Hopefully this will make the difference when i get back to the track this time. The pulling the bike down to the apex might be my residual desire to body steer the bike into the lean which obviously is not doing the job...

Thanks for the reply. I have not done the school yet and know of some of the drills through second hand descriptions only. I have used the hook turn technique as i understand it and do see the usefulness of it. I take T1 on a neutral throttle slowing a bit, i know the really fast guys are just flying through here using engine braking only. Ive definitely slowed down on brakes before this. But its the fastest "turn" im negotiating. T3, just coming off throttle after accelerating down the short chute. I have trouble pulling the bike down to the apex is probably the best description i feel. Maybe its my fear or inability to lean the bike far enough when going fast(er). I go back in two weeks and wanted to have something to try. I asked a coach and they told me to take it in a higher gear. But, good to know that for a simple corner the best way around is gradually trading lean angle with braking. How does this apply to the quick turn or quick flip turns?

At a recent trackday, one of the coaches was leading a classroom session and was describing the bikes "attitude" on and off throttle. My impression of what he was saying was that the bike is always slightly pitched back on acceleration or pitched forward off throttle or on the brakes. And your goal is to minimize coasting. So, it got me to thinking about the timing of steering input and this chassis attitude. I know that weight shift forward will change your geometry to decrease rake and trail and possibly make it easier to get the bike turned. My question is, is this the goal in every corner? How much effect does this on/off throttle exactly have on that initial steering? Do you look to pitch the bike forward slightly and time your steering input during this time to get the most response from the steering input? Obviously you aren't going to jam on the brakes and countersteer your hardest. I was noticing significant resistance to turning going into a couple corners at my last trackday. Turn 1 at autobahn cc north is a short left kink after the front straight where I make about 125mph and at T3 after a short short straight at about 75? I've made changes to my body position since that last trackday, getting closer on the tank when practicing on the street but have yet to try it out on track. Just with this simple experimentation it is obvious that a higher center of gravity noticeably slows your ability to lean and transition the bike. It has not been as clear to me whether timing the countersteering input with weight shift forward is as helpful but this is on the street where I'm building in a much greater safety margin. I ride a 11 gsxr750 with shimmed rear shock. And I have the ability to play with the fork offset if needed. I was thinking about this but wanting input on whether I could improve turn in with riding technique before I further mess with the chassis settings.

What a coincidence! This popped into my mind as well just this past week. And I was ruminating on it as well... Roll and Yaw are two distinct types of motion on the motorcycle. Most people think of roll (lean angle) when we think of cornering. But, what we are really looking for is yaw- getting the motorcycle to go around a turn. Because of the way our physical universe exists, the most efficient (perhaps only) way to achieve this yaw results in roll. Do you lean to turn or do you turn to lean. LOL. Anyway, I found this interesting technical, analytical real world article measuring this yaw and roll and various rider inputs here. http://bicycle.tudelft.nl/schwab/Bicycle/evertse2010riderMinApp.pdf I had to read it a couple times and only understand part of it, but it clearly shows the countersteering inputs applied in getting the motorcycle into a turn, the yaw rates and direction, the roll rates and direction, the steering torque and direction and the actual steering direction. It goes into gyroscopic moment (which might be what your original question was referring too) and how that initial countersteering input can itself contribute to the roll but minimally. Fascinating stuff.

On a more practical note, 60 degree weather here was a nice change of pace. another hour or so of riding a loop that I use to practice, I find myself getting comfortable after crashing last year a couple times at the track and recovering from injury (broken clavicle). i focused on a stable strong body position (one cheek off, torso hips open slightly) to make my countersteering input (getting low on the tank helps me to push out not down). Then, as I enter the turn heading to the apex, I slowly drop my elbow and head into position as I clip the “apex.” Remembering to pick up the throttle as soon as i can see my exit point. The faster and wider my vision is, the earlier I can apply the throttle. For me, it takes a conscious effort to sit my backside down through the corner but I find that sitting back a bit with about that fist between me and the tank helped me relax and ride the bike rather than “fight” it.

That’s all I’m trying to do, too. but all this talk of logic and reasoning is giving me a headache. let me ask you something. how does one know who is right and who is wrong? If mathematics cannot fully explain the way a motorcycle steers, what makes someone so sure they are right and others are wrong? I agree that much of the internet is a big wasteland of misinformation. I am a professional by training and (like, you) spent some considerable time in secondary education after high school (13years for me, yikes!). I am not unfamiliar with textbooks and classroom and learning. Last 5 years were in hands on training learning my craft, I am not unfamiliar with the physical aspect of acquiring new skills. While I would no sooner tell someone to go to any internet forum for information I trained in, I realize that if carefully selected, there IS a place to look for this information. I am also grateful for any information I can glean. Just wish it wasn’t so shrouded in mystery sometimes.

Thank you SO MUCH for your help. I'd rather be naturally fast than stubbornly, studiously slow, but it is what it is. Rather I think it's the way I learn. I've always been a watch and watch and watch then copy. Not so much good at working it out myself on the fly.

That’s ironic you link the wiki article. I have read it. they describe countersteering by weight shifting and being able to initiate turns by making the bike lean right or left through peg weighting. You may not change the center of mass very much, but the fact that bike is now leaned, it induces the front wheel to swivel and create the countersteering input. ‘They point out that the movement is minor the heavier the vehicle is, but might this be what is best in the middle of a turn to hold a line if needed? its not that I don’t believe in countersteering, it obviously is the most effective way of getting to your lean angle quickly. I just wanted input on how much weight I should have on the seat vs crouching on the pegs. Now that you’ve made it somewhat clear, I can make my adjustments. i went out for a ride and found a nice feeling of stability cornering when firmly seated on the bike. And I was surprised at how much I was actually squatting on the pegs before and how hard it was to break the habit the faster I entered. I still felt like I wanted to be up on the pegs as it felt I was in better control of the bike, but I know this is not my goal. Maybe it’s a survival reaction, like I’m ready to jump off if I slide. Lol. my goal is to be in position before the corner. Enter the corner firmly seated in good position to apply the initial countersteering input. Get to my lean angle without moving my body position around to upset the bike. Then, pick up the apex and apply gradual throttle to settle the suspension, then the exit point, maybe at this point move the upper body or weight the outer peg or counter steer to get the bike up and out of the lean.

Nah, just trying to figure out how much weight to put on the seat... If I can understand a little more bike dynamics in the process, so much the better. It is warmer finally today. I'm going out after work and will experiment on a few things. If you have any suggestions pertaining to the above, it would be greatly appreciated.