johnnyrod

Crash106, don't be afraid to get out on track before you've been to the CSS. You'll start in the novices group anyway, which tends not to be too fast but their lines can be unpredictable for those that know what a racing line is, and sometimes there are a few ringers who like to feel like the fastest or just couldn't get a place in one of the other groups. Learning to ride fast and be in control is an iterative process. I've found that some of the things I've done on the track and problems I've run into are things I can then talk about when I've been at CSS days; I've got something I want to conquer, or I've read some of the book(s) and not got the hang of applying it, or I've found things that need improving that wouldn't crop up on the road because you don't go at that sort of pace or with the same aims as track riding. Equally (and unfortunately) visiting CSS isn't like in The Matrix where they get loaded with info and go and kung fu someone's ass, you'll be taught various things and some of them need a lot of practice. Worst case is you ride like you do on the road but faster, but a little track time won't teach you a load of bad habits that you can't undo.

It's not just you, maybe as many as half the track days I've been to seem to run sighting laps pretty fast. I'm mainly in the intermediates these days. I do take a few sessions to settle into it and build up speed, plus first time out the bike is cold and so am I so the pace of them is a bit too much sometimes, though thankfully they don't go flat out down the straights so I have a chance to catch up again.

I've been fortunate enough to do both levels 1 and 2 in the dry, although level 1 was at Stowe and it had only just stopped raining. We weren't really going fast enough for the wet to be a big problem. The first couple of bends at Stowe (Silverstone) have a nasty section where the old paint has been removed, this was very slippery in the damp, but added a new dimension to the throttle control drill, when you really can feel one end or the other (or both) trying to break away!

In terms of fork setup, check your sag with and without rider are right, and if the front feels a bit vague when you're on the gas then try a bit more rebound damping. To be honest it sounds more like you're apexing too early and/or turning in too soon as you've suggested.

Undersprung front sounds like a problem too. Soft springs can give the feel of a slide (at either end). Stiffer ones will make a big difference, the SV650 used to have pathetic fork springs even for my miserable 65kg/140lb/10 stone let alone bigger blokes. The damping is pretty crude too, but the worst of it is the spring weight.

Has the new bike got a slipper clutch?

Hi Oz It could be all sorts of things but if you'r erunning 40psi front and rear then that sounds wrong. I'm not so familiar with really big bikes so check with Michelin but I would think that 36psi front 42psi rear is right. If a tyre is too hard it'll want to let go more as it won't absorb the bumps. The other thing is suspension set-up, a hard front/soft rear wouldn't help though really you need a nice balanced set-up rather than just get stuck in and make random adjustments. Finally throttle control would probably help you out, what are you doing at the point the front is pushing? CSS level 1 teaches you this in the first session (and you'd be surprised how many people don't know good throttle control, although nearly all of them think they do).

If adding a little throttle can (re-)tighten your line, how does using a little rear brake also tighten it? The whole back brake discussion usually runs for ever. I'm not that quick but I use some rear brake to stabilise the bike. When the limit of rear traction comes under braking, the chain can clatter a bit (MX styleee) and you'll feel the rear starting to hop a little, so you have to back off. Many people don't use the back brake because modern bikes have such good front brakes and suspension that you can get away with it, I'm not convinced it's the best thing to do though.

As some of the guys above have said, trying to give it anything like 100% on the road is asking for it, so if you're riding to the limit of what you can see, that's as fast as you can go on that road really. Also as said above, grip varies a lot on the road, from day to day and different areas etc. I know what you mean about lean angle though, you want a way of getting used to the idea. A track day is good for this, one in the UK that's ideal is Rockingham because it's slow (100mph/160km/h max unless you're really flying), the bends are wide and fairly simple, and it has tons of grip. You can get down to peg-scraping angles, and if you make a mess of your line there's space to drift in or out, so you can do some experimentation. If you have a similar track somewhere near you then book a novice day and give it a go. CSS is great for teaching you the right way to steer etc. but most of your track time is learning new stuff, you also need time to practice.

Some people say you can't spin or highside a 600 because there isn't enough power, and I say it's just not true. Add ridiculous lean angle and too much gas and guess what, grip runs out and the back slips. On a bigger bike it's probably more contorllable because you can force the rear to break away using the throttle more easily - on a smaller bike (600s aren't exactly small though) you have to use up more of the grip with coonering first as there is less power to take you over the edge of grippage. Doing it that way though, you're closer to a crash. Take it to the logical extremes - the only way to slide a 125 is really to grind the pegs and have it wode open. On a monster biek you can spin the back wheel in a straigh tline if you can keep the front down. On the 125, you're off, or having a huge job trying to save it, whereas on the big bike you just shut off and you're fine. Real life is somewhere in between, and I'm rubbish at finding the edge of grip with any sort of subtlety! Alvecchio, just take it steady, as I've said by the time you spin up a small bike you're starting to get close to falling off. First thing is lean to relax on the bike, make your steering inputs consciously and then just let it follow its line, don't wrestle with it, that will bring you a lot closer. If you're smooth then even at silly lean angles you have more margin for error. Also check your suspension settings, too little preload won't feel too bad at modest lean angles but it'll wallow when you really push it, and it feels like the back trying to break away. This is quite common for people who are starting to corner faster and faster on bikes that are made more for comfort or as a compromise than things like a GSXR. Notch it up one and it'll probably feel better, but ideally set the sag properly. Jaybrid has a good point! And if you want to see how it's done, I can demonstrate the best place to crash... in front of the photographer: http://trackdaydigitalimages.com/110509nbwe/pages/page_104.html

I'd say a lsower corner would be betetr as you don't have to try so hard to make the back wheel break away. In a fast bend you'll be heading towards 100% power to get a slide. Sounds more dangerous to me, and then there's falling off. Any rear wheel slide that gets out of hand will mean you highside or lowside. If you shut off the gas then it'll highside, if you don't then it'll lowside, which is more preferable unless you like the taste of hospital food.

I was thinking more about this... these engines: inline 4 ("normal" crank) parallel twin single cylinder opposed twin all should have the same characterstic in that all the pistons are either at BDC or TDC at the same time, but the V-twin is the only one that doesn't (ignoring 6-cyl etc.) in that one piston is at TDC or BDC while the other is part-way through the stroke. So is the same true when comparing e.g a BMW to an SV? Also what was the crank configuration used on the "big bang" 500cc 2-strokes, and the "normal" ones come to think of it?

Very interesting! Funny how it's gone from lumpiness to smoothness!

Fossil you seem happy with the RPs for turning in and apexing, are you looking for some sort of speed RP? As you say, no speedo so only a rev counter which you might not have much time to read, so difficult perhaps to increase your speed into a turn on each lap if you're not able to figure out how fast you were or are going.

His downshifting style would be a killer on a road bike, the slipper/electronic clutch takes care of it though

Interesting discussion, especially what Bullet thinks about the new R1 and its traction. I'm pretty bad at feeling for the edge of grip so I can't say much about that, but to me it feels a bit like when you feed in the power, on the SV and other twins I've ridden (mainly smaller ones) that the back tyre almost grows little teeth and drives you out, whereas on fours that doesn't seem to happen, they just punt you forwards. Probably sounds like a daft explanation but that's the way it feels to me!

Hi Cobie Know what you mean about sag without rider, but I got this from a trackday Ohlins tech (Colin here in the UK). It's also right with the rider on, provided you have the right spring weight (which is obviously something to get right before twiddling a spanner). I'd go with the rider on board if unsure so 25-30mm at the front, maybe 20-25mm at the back, as that's how you ride it after all. Don't overcook the rebound damping though, or it'll try to spin when you feed the power on at silly lean angles.

Hi Luis It's impossible to give a setup that will just work for you really. First thing to do is set the preload to about 15mm sag at the front and 6mm at the back, without rider. Getting this right is fairly simple but can make a huge difference if it's alreayd very wrong. Don't fiddle with the damping until you do this. After that it's a case of changing one thing at a time, riding it, making notes, go back around. Try this: www.bikeguru.co.uk/susp.html If it's for the track then on track days (not CSS) you can hire an Ohlins or other suspension guy for about £30/$50 who will be your tech for the day and do the fiddling for you, this is well worth it. For CSS though, a basic road setup is fine as you won't be too near the limits of its performance, because it's a learning day.

Jasonzilla, twins don't rev as high as fours so they produce less power. Same torque at higher revs means more power. The SV produces around the same (peak) torque as a 600/4 but they rev to 14k+ Bullet thanks for the info. The SV certainly doesn't have enough power to spin up out of bends unless you're being a tool. If I was looking to jump on a GSXR750 do you reckon that's still not so powerful that the twin/four thing makes a difference? A lot of it is about feel and confidence and I do like the way a twin seems to drive out of bends, I've never ridden a four as hard as I have the SV though.

Usual apologies if this has been covered or is in the wrong place, I've tried to make sure that isn't so... There is a lot of guff in the m/c press for sure but how much truth is there in the difference in grip that a twin has driving out of a corner compared to a four? I ride a SV650 V-twin, but have previously also ridden fours. I don't know if it's just a feeling, but to me it feels like when you get on the throttle to exit a bend, with a twin the back tyre seems to bite more than with a four. I am using proper throttle control rather than just on/off (years of riding rubbish old bikes makes you smooth) and had no problem with this at level 1. Twins tend to rev lower than fours, mine redlines at about 10k although sometimes I'll be coming out of a bend at as much as 7k, which is in inline four territory, although it'll still make half the number of power pulses as a four of course. So, what do you think? This has had me wondering for a while. That and I'm thinking about getting a new bike...