ktk_ace

I would say on a "frameless" bike like the Ducati 1199R... IMHO it takes much more active management(TC + body postioning ) to stabilize the bike I know you like Duhan's style of hanging off by the arse but Duhan has Honda's perimeter frame + one crazy low COG + light bike during the GP500 days. Torque buildup was also much smaller on GP500 bikes compared to newer 4 stroke bikes of the 999CC MOTOGP era. now factor in that Mr Bayliss rides like duhan ... BUT with a frameless bike (lighter but less forgiving) , higher AND more rearwards COG (V configuration 4 stroke), crazy torque delivery (V2 desmo) and a single sided swingarm ( direct opposite of a perimeter based gullwing swingarm) you get a recipe for wiggles , shakes and disaster (the 1199R is like a loaded spring with no energy to dissipate but snap back unlike a u shaped perimeter frame where the energy can oscillate and dissipate without noticeable effect on the stability) when pushed over the limit. The Germans aint dumb you see, they dissected Japan's big 4 and learned to best or even beat them in those areas that they excel. Even Aprilia went for the perimeter frame + 2 sided swingarm approach. Ducati's motoGP effort... perimeter frame + 2 sided swingarm should tell alot on what works and dont on the top level of racing in the world... just my 2c

I would also love to see how aerodynamically advantageous the hook turn technique would be at different speeds/bigger/smaller riders but that requires wind tunnel testing facilities... oh well at least it works for me

reminds me of this XD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmaEEiF7N28 maybe all the small kinks and wobbles the bike has is dampened by the neck perhaps?

That jumped out at me. Perhaps you mean body steering? I ride an S1000RR. Body position makes a huge difference. Can you elaborate on that? In what ways do you notice body position makes a big difference for you on the S1000? Sure. The biggest improvement I have noticed in using better body position is that the bike is more willing to turn mid corner. While I don't use body position to initiate a turn it seems to keep the line tighter and prevents the bike from going wide. As I mentioned before some of the first times I tried using "better" body position I almost ran over the apex because of the willingness of the bike to turn. I'm also a heavy rider. I tip the scales at over 200# so my body weight is pretty substantial even on a heavy bike. my 2c: 1) your body weight to bike weight is much higher than a 150 pound rider on a S1000rr (me) 2) you notice the extra steering mid turn , not during the initial turn ( slower speeds = much less inertia ) 3) bigger rider = much higher COG when locked on to the bike = instantly lower (and bigger) COG shift when hanging off / body does a repositioning for reference : a smaller/lighter rider = lower COG = much less COG shifting when hanging off / body does a repositioning ... Im not 100% sure but the hook turn technique might be relying on COMBINED COG to get the GEOMETRY of the bike to change to a faster turning one (aka in car terms from a RR layout to a MR or even a FR layout on the fly ) I also noticed that while a bike with a lower front end (either from body positioning or setup) loves to corner , it is also more skiddish at lower speeds hence the concurrent use of body positioning to STABILIZE it. its like... an active kinetic damper + bike geometry changer

X2 thou I had some real quality time with the local (friendly) MX gang on one of their trips, my thoughts after playing around with their bikes and style after a few rounds in their own private dirt track my not so professional observations -body positioning helps stabilize the bike at very low speeds (combined inertia energy is much lower so you have more oomph to wrestle it around) -body positioning is more effective if the weight of the bike is light (90-120KG) relative to the rider (60-85kg) -body positioning is more effective if the wheelbase is shorter -body positioning is more effective if the COG of said bike is higher -body positioning is more effective if surface/tires are skiddishly for a lack of a better term body positioning is not gonna be VERY effective on a long wheelbase medium to hi COG ,heavy ,high horsepower bike (S1000RR) on a fast tarmac track (hi friction hi grip) obviously. I've been incorporating certain MX styles to my everyday commute after playing around and the "dangle your leg out at speeds less than 10km\h for 180 degree turn" works great for me... (bike is 120KG unfueled , < 1300 MM wheelbase and LOW COG) just my 2c

Double post

Whats the ambient temps over there? maybe it hasnt warmed up ? PS. My shop had a tire gauge that reads 1 psi lower so yeah, good if u get your tire pressure checked at various sources

Dang, how do i immigrate?

85-90KPH in a turn on public roads? 1) how legal is it ? 2) most public roads are not built to be handled at such speeds posted ... (this is not germany) 3) fresh tarmac = slippery 4) worn tires ? PS. K6= lightest + shortest wheelbased GSX R1000 atm. the supershort 1,405 mm + 165KG makes it very easy to get overwhelmed esp with stock parts + heavy rider (anything over 160 pounds on a japanese bike is heavy) imho. ANY slight input will upset it much more easily than other super bikes , this is the price u pay for crazy acceleration + flickability (light bike).

imperative to have a turn point that works too i might add. and consistency in entry speed and hitting the turn point with precision. 2-3 feet off or 10 mph too fast = you've blown it. sometimes just NOT rolling on the throttle (eg just holding it at a certain position) is enough to scrub off speed if your bike has somewhat heavy engine breaking / smaller displacement + big rider / in a corner at lean

You can always augment your inability with money aka aftermarket electronic quickshifters / TC (google bazazz TC FI) or the whole S1000R/ RR electronics suite (or a Honda with a DCT) just sayin' I really see no need for this. Using the clutch doesn't take a cent from my dollar of attention, it's fully automated. The latest vogue in GP racing is clutchless downshifts, but I don't think it's electronically controlled? Honda has it and Yamaha seems close, but if it could be done with a simple electronic assist I believe it would have been done long time ago. Upshifts, yes, but downshifts needs more than cutting the ignition for a split second. Anyway, it's not a topic I lose any sleep over - I found the video interesting for the sound of the engine and then noticed how easily he downshifted through proper technique http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/news/undefined/news/2015-bmw-s1000rr-first-ride GSA PRO baby~ Honda's DCT eliminates the need for shift (pun intended lol) if you engage its automated mode.

You can always augment your inability with money aka aftermarket electronic quickshifters / TC (google bazazz TC FI) or the whole S1000R/ RR electronics suite (or a Honda with a DCT) just sayin'

Scrub + slippage ... Scruppage? ... doesnt sound right Nice article thou! ^^

That's an interesting comment, ktk-ace. Never really thought of it before, but ... Me, I'm a 7 stone weakling and yes, I've noticed that a number of my 'stockier' road-riding buddies enter corners faster than I do. However, by mid-corner, I'm already up their exhaust pipes (if I'm not careful) and before the corner unwinds, I'm long gone. (Like I said, I've never thought of it before), but maybe suspension set-ups this is part of the reason ... I had a chance to observe a friend who is near 200 pounds, he corners like crazy on his stock (suspension) bike during the initial 1/2 of the corner too... stable too on a nicely paved corner as both the front and rear are nearly only running on air springs as they are like on the last 1/5 of their effective length... His stock front tire was shot after only 4500 KM (the usual milage fyi is 8000-12000 KM )

having a bike that behaves predictably also helps ; In the realm of COG, I try to make my bike as mass centralized as possible and the left and right behaving properly when in a slide try it with an analogue bike , do a 40-0 deceleration with the back brake only. Alot of bikes will step out either left or right because the mass of the bike isnt inherently balanced (the CB400 sans ABS will nearly always skid to the side of the exhaust ) As my bike doesnt have any electronics whatsoever , i add weight to the opposite side of the slide/skid to make the back wheel "wiggle" when flooring the back brake paddle instead of skidding slightly to the right (my can is on the right fyi) multiple white line slides later and Im not even spooked anymore , slides just nibble into the $10 of attention for me.

I do agree that being fit is a good way to stretch the 10$ of attention ~ do more with less , higher efficiency

"riding technology" sells products for a specific bike~ CSBK sells skills that you can use on any bike . Its just business / marketing

Apology accepted... IMHO the CSBK's school , based on yet another of my guesstimate... might actually favor some specific type of bike setup . They used to have kawasaki's and now have S1000rr's . both have for a lack of a better term, the worse mass centralization in the class (pipe and swingarm mass +position ) but the best in electronics ,maximum engine output and suspension (BMW with their DDC , kawa with their BPF) . the best pipe centralization now is the panigale / RC8R (pipe doesnt extend beyond the swingarm pivot point) the best swingarm mass centralization/llowest cog now WAS the 2014 R1 (look at the 2014 RC213V and you will see why , its "upside down" ) Thou with a modern 21st century era sportbike... getting that type of setup might be as easy as changing a pair of tires , a few clicks here and there on the suspension and maybe playing with the front triple clamp for rake angle adjustments if you are a 150 pound rider... I do agree that the CSBK school of thought has and still is serving me with the widest sweet spot range on the streets , thou its mainly geared for racing. but i do take tidbits that are not from the CSBK school of thouht here and there, try to add it to the mix and see if the results are better or worse , integrating the better ones and dumping the ones that dont work every now and then.

wow that kinda looks comfy, like a majesty 400's seat to be precise.

Im not even a troy corser fan. If you dont like discussing something which i find very meaningful (suspension and geometry) , i can always turn a blind eye towards your discussion. btw what bashing? You do know the lessons are pretty much just an everchanging and evolving school of tought and not etched into stone do you? or not.

maybe his bike is spec-ed differently imho (ie lower rebound damping but with 2mm lowered triple clamp for ex compared to stock) the rebound damping topic mentioned by hotfoot had me thinking why some bikes steer differently with just a few suspension changes...

maybe you have too much rebound damping?

from a review, I heard the DDC addon is much better than the HP4 ... sweet

Erik,based on my guessitmate... your bike is seriously underdamped , hence you have to load up and stabilize both the front and rear suspension with the minimum amount of lean angle... your suspension wont hold (it would go up and down like a pirate ship) properly if you don't enter a turn trailing the throttle. I have the same experience with stock bikes tuned for comfort and a huge load range (jack of all trades master of none) , they have to be "loaded up" to feel stable from entry to exit of a corner, esp for a light rider. heavier guys on stock bikes "go faster" in corners because of this, their weight overwhelms/counters the stock "underdamped" rebound damping, technically its not underdamped for them in the corner because of the higher G forces loaded on the tires and fork throughout the corner due to centrifugal forces ; i still eat them for all 3 meals on the straights thou. My bike only has a cheap aftermarket rear (its only preload adjustable) and a re-oiled front (the springs and internals are stock) but the thicker oil(+10to 15% at given temps) in front means i only have to trail brake up to the turn point , do a quick flick , and Im already holding if not opening up the throttle with next to no $ of the $10 on the brake department therafter (unless an emergency pops up) Such a setup and cornering habit easily yields me an additional 7-10km/h going out of turns compared to anything stock with easily more than enough left of the $10 worth of attention for emergencies while street riding.

that explains why the new guys trail brake like mad on a new bike around my area ; the rebound damping is rubbish for sporty riding hence they are compensating for the front end "popping back" in a corner with stock suspension. there are quite a few ways to "gear" (hardware wise) and "hack" (software wise, esp riding skills) around it , one is what you said ,properly tuned suspension with adequate rebound damping. leaning into the corner (upper body only on streets) also brings some weight towards the front , which keeps the front fork compressed "longer" ; i would say with a higher grade of the quick flick + throttle skill , you can actually bridge the gap of the "pogo-ing transition" between off the brakes , flipping the bike and gassing the throttle , hence totally prevent the pogo effect even with really soft front suspension (which is a dozen a penny on stock bikes as they are tuned for comfort and usually a 150 pound rider) , thou it will definitely take up a huge chunk of the $10 to pull it off compared to a bike with worked out suspension~ Erik is flipping out because based on my guessitmate, the skillset he has isnt up to grade in retrospect to his extremely underdamped rebound suspension both front and aft ; he needs all the help he can muster to keep the front from popping up in corners...