ktk_ace
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Posts posted by ktk_ace
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I just watched the video. The advice given would raise a number of questions in my mind to think about. There are elements of what he say's that's reasonable. Not the part about the peg weighting.
In the guy's defense though, people attempting to teach (even ones who are wrong) are trying to help other people. He probably believes what he is saying is correct. I have been given questionable advice on track days by coaches who have wanted to help me. Advice like this is only dangerous if you follow it without thinking about it for yourself.
Some food for thought. People who give out wrong information often don't have ill intentions. They just lack knowledge. Rather than shutting down the conversation by challenging their knowledge (people generally stop listening when you tell them they are wrong) you could ask them a series of questions that makes them think and perhaps lead them to a better understanding of the topic. If you have ever spoken to a Superbike School coach in a briefing you will notice some of the carefully thought out questions that they ask you that helps you find the right answer on your own.
Rather than spend energy on a topic focusing on the "wrong way" why not focus on the right way? The wrong way is not really important to us if our ultimate goal is to improve our riding.
I would also love to see how aerodynamically advantageous the hook turn technique would be at different speeds/bigger/smaller riders
but that requires wind tunnel testing facilities...
oh well at least it works for me
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Your head is a VERY heavy portion of your body mass. The lower you can move it and the farther inside you can move it the better off you are. The school teaches a technique in Level 3 called the "hook turn". This is essentially moving your head lower and closer to the inside of the corner. It's great if you suddenly find yourself going wide.
One other strange benefit of getting body position right for me at least. With my head down lower I have a different perspective of the track surface. This seems to help with the sense of speed through the corner. At least for me. With good body position the corner just "clicks" and works really well for me.
reminds me of this XD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmaEEiF7N28
maybe all the small kinks and wobbles the bike has is dampened by the neck perhaps?
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body positioning is not gonna be VERY effective on a long wheelbase medium to hi COG ,heavy ,high horsepower bike (S1000RR) on a fast tarmac track (hi friction hi grip) obviously.
That jumped out at me. Perhaps you mean body steering?
I ride an S1000RR. Body position makes a huge difference.
Can you elaborate on that? In what ways do you notice body position makes a big difference for you on the S1000?
Sure. The biggest improvement I have noticed in using better body position is that the bike is more willing to turn mid corner. While I don't use body position to initiate a turn it seems to keep the line tighter and prevents the bike from going wide. As I mentioned before some of the first times I tried using "better" body position I almost ran over the apex because of the willingness of the bike to turn.
I'm also a heavy rider. I tip the scales at over 200# so my body weight is pretty substantial even on a heavy bike.
my 2c:
1) your body weight to bike weight is much higher than a 150 pound rider on a S1000rr (me)
2) you notice the extra steering mid turn , not during the initial turn ( slower speeds = much less inertia )
3) bigger rider = much higher COG when locked on to the bike = instantly lower (and bigger) COG shift when hanging off / body does a repositioning
for reference :
a smaller/lighter rider = lower COG = much less COG shifting when hanging off / body does a repositioning ...
Im not 100% sure but the hook turn technique might be relying on COMBINED COG to get the GEOMETRY of the bike to change to a faster turning one
(aka in car terms from a RR layout to a MR or even a FR layout on the fly )
I also noticed that while a bike with a lower front end (either from body positioning or setup) loves to corner , it is also more skiddish at lower speeds hence the concurrent use of body positioning to STABILIZE it.
its like... an active kinetic damper + bike geometry changer
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When you mentioned that exact idea it just jumped out at me. The writer is a former student of the school actually.
I'm of the opinion that you have to look at everything to fully understand a concept. I have read a number of books out there that have "different" ideas of how things work. In reading these books it has only brought me back to realize how strong and based in science the Superbike School's approach is. There's nothing quite like it anywhere.
As for the school mentions I can absolutely see the reasoning behind that. Some schools in their marketing attempt to criticize other techniques of teaching. I think the reasoning for the scolding is just to keep us focused rather than being pulled off into a tangent with many of those pointless debates. The forum is about this school and the techniques taught within it. This forum is probably one of the most positive motorcycle related forums I have ever been on and everyone here from fellow students to coaches only have the agenda to help other riders improve.
X2
thou I had some real quality time with the local (friendly) MX gang on one of their trips, my thoughts after playing around with their bikes and style
after a few rounds in their own private dirt track
my not so professional observations
-body positioning helps stabilize the bike at very low speeds (combined inertia energy is much lower so you have more oomph to wrestle it around)
-body positioning is more effective if the weight of the bike is light (90-120KG) relative to the rider (60-85kg)
-body positioning is more effective if the wheelbase is shorter
-body positioning is more effective if the COG of said bike is higher
-body positioning is more effective if surface/tires are skiddishly for a lack of a better term
body positioning is not gonna be VERY effective on a long wheelbase medium to hi COG ,heavy ,high horsepower bike (S1000RR) on a fast tarmac track (hi friction hi grip) obviously.
I've been incorporating certain MX styles to my everyday commute after playing around and the "dangle your leg out at speeds less than 10km\h for 180 degree turn" works great for me...
(bike is 120KG unfueled , < 1300 MM wheelbase and LOW COG)
just my 2c
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Double post
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Hi all, I appreciate you all trying to help me figure this out.
Yellowduck, Nope, there was nothing on the road or the tyre. Pavement was clear of painted lines etc. I checked both times. I stay clear of the rear brake everywhere except commuting through town and ride with my toes on the pegs. Definitely not scraping hard parts. I’m not that talented haha (nor would I want to do that on the street).
Csmith, I don’t think I was charging. I was riding with very little acceleration out of the turns (enough to transfer the weight but no hard acceleration) and no brakes at all front or rear most of the time. I was keeping a fairly consistent speed through the turns and the short straight bits in between. Hence thinking that I may not have rolled off the gas enough the first time. I was already at a comfortable corner speed well before I turned into the corner in question. No trail braking.
The tyre is a standard size 190/50 Dunlop sportsmart and I run the tyres at the recommended pressures on the street. Actually that's a good point guys, I should check them to make sure I haven’t misread my tyre gauge and put in 10PSI extra in or anything haha.
It was happening just as I was finishing my steering input. A little way before the apex. Can’t be sure if I had released the pressure on the bar or just trailing it off. Another half a second and I would have been opening the throttle. I'm not entilely certain that I had finished my steering input but I am cetrain that I wasn't coasting on zero throttle at my desired lean. To be honest I didn't have the opportunity to relax on the bars cause I was still steering or just finishing steering.....I was definitely loose on the bars after it started stepping out though. I guess I could have done something weird on the bars just before. Something to be more aware of in future I guess. As for my body position. I know this still needs lots of work. Trying to get on the inside and not twist around the tank....I am improving slowly, but by no means textbook.
Hotfoot, you've got me thinking.....It’s actually a fairly new tyre. It was only my 3rd ride out on it in the twisty bits. The rubber had already been scrubbed all the way on both sides but maybe not for long enough or hard enough? I was always under the impression that if the sheen has been scrubbed off that means the tyre is at optimum.......is that right?
I always thought that if something was to slide entering a corner it would be the front.
Haha....85-90 on dirt. Now that's something. The road I was on has an 80kph speed limit so I wasn't much over
Whats the ambient temps over there? maybe it hasnt warmed up ?
PS. My shop had a tire gauge that reads 1 psi lower so yeah, good if u get your tire pressure checked at various sources
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Welcome to the forum Roddy.
When was the last time you check the air pressure in the tyres?
@ ktk 85-90 KPH is average speed on dirt roads where I live. If your going that slow on the tarmac your road kill
Dang, how do i immigrate?
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85-90KPH in a turn on public roads?
1) how legal is it ?
2) most public roads are not built to be handled at such speeds posted ... (this is not germany)
3) fresh tarmac = slippery
4) worn tires ?
PS. K6= lightest + shortest wheelbased GSX R1000 atm.
the supershort 1,405 mm + 165KG makes it very easy to get overwhelmed esp with stock parts + heavy rider (anything over 160 pounds on a japanese bike is heavy) imho.ANY slight input will upset it much more easily than other super bikes , this is the price u pay for crazy acceleration + flickability (light bike).
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imperative to have a turn point that works too i might add.
and consistency in entry speed and hitting the turn point with precision. 2-3 feet off or 10 mph too fast = you've blown it.
sometimes just NOT rolling on the throttle (eg just holding it at a certain position) is enough to scrub off speed if your bike has somewhat heavy engine breaking / smaller displacement + big rider / in a corner at lean
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Done properly, clutchless downshifts should bring no harm. I cannot do them properly, just enough to get me home without ruining anything if the clutch cable snaps. Under stress, like on a track? Forget it - way beyond my abilities.
You can always augment your inability with money aka aftermarket electronic quickshifters / TC (google bazazz TC FI) or the whole S1000R/ RR electronics suite (or a Honda with a DCT)
just sayin'
I really see no need for this. Using the clutch doesn't take a cent from my dollar of attention, it's fully automated. The latest vogue in GP racing is clutchless downshifts, but I don't think it's electronically controlled? Honda has it and Yamaha seems close, but if it could be done with a simple electronic assist I believe it would have been done long time ago. Upshifts, yes, but downshifts needs more than cutting the ignition for a split second. Anyway, it's not a topic I lose any sleep over - I found the video interesting for the sound of the engine and then noticed how easily he downshifted through proper technique
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/news/undefined/news/2015-bmw-s1000rr-first-ride
GSA PRO baby~
Honda's DCT eliminates the need for shift (pun intended lol) if you engage its automated mode.
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Done properly, clutchless downshifts should bring no harm. I cannot do them properly, just enough to get me home without ruining anything if the clutch cable snaps. Under stress, like on a track? Forget it - way beyond my abilities.
You can always augment your inability with money aka aftermarket electronic quickshifters / TC (google bazazz TC FI) or the whole S1000R/ RR electronics suite (or a Honda with a DCT)
just sayin'
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Scrub + slippage ... Scruppage? ... doesnt sound right
Nice article thou! ^^ -
Heavier guys on stock bikes "go faster" in corners because of this: their weight overwhelms/counters the stock "underdamped" rebound damping. Technically, it's not underdamped for them in the corner because of the higher G forces loaded on the tires and fork throughout the corner due to centrifugal forces.That's an interesting comment, ktk-ace. Never really thought of it before, but ...Me, I'm a 7 stone weakling and yes, I've noticed that a number of my 'stockier'
road-riding buddies enter corners faster than I do. However, by mid-corner, I'm already up their exhaust pipes (if I'm not careful) and before the corner unwinds, I'm long gone. (Like I said, I've never thought of it before), but maybe suspension set-ups this is part of the reason ...I had a chance to observe a friend who is near 200 pounds, he corners like crazy on his stock (suspension) bike during the initial 1/2 of the corner too...
stable too on a nicely paved corner as both the front and rear are nearly only running on air springs as they are like on the last 1/5 of their effective length...
His stock front tire was shot after only 4500 KM (the usual milage fyi is 8000-12000 KM )
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Traction is a concern of mine as well. The Datalogger on my BMW is quite helpful for being able to "see" the limits of traction that I have. I have been on a bike that was sliding and not equipped with TC. The training that I got at the Superbike School made surviving the back stepping out second nature and a complete non issue. Simple basics such as throttle control and remaining loose on the bike seem pretty simple but pay dividends when things aren't going according to plan.
having a bike that behaves predictably also helps ; In the realm of COG, I try to make my bike as mass centralized as possible and the left and right behaving properly when in a slide
try it with an analogue bike , do a 40-0 deceleration with the back brake only. Alot of bikes will step out either left or right because the mass of the bike isnt inherently balanced
(the CB400 sans ABS will nearly always skid to the side of the exhaust )
As my bike doesnt have any electronics whatsoever , i add weight to the opposite side of the slide/skid to make the back wheel "wiggle" when flooring the back brake paddle instead of skidding slightly to the right
(my can is on the right fyi)
multiple white line slides later and Im not even spooked anymore , slides just nibble into the $10 of attention for me.
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I do agree that being fit is a good way to stretch the 10$ of attention ~ do more with less , higher efficiency
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I always wondered how those superstars (i.e. mgp, moto2 and wsbk riders) treats the called "riding technology".
I mean, I've never heard a single soul talking about countersteering on an interview. I bet they have no clue about it.
It's all about braking, trail-braking, leg waving...
But the "pick up" technique is always mentioned (the one and only).
"riding technology" sells products for a specific bike~
CSBK sells skills that you can use on any bike .
Its just business / marketing
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indeed geometry affects handling, like my old daytona and its twitchy front end, which tends to be quite "nervous" while cornering.
but, again, Corser's cornering theorethical approach can be called as "weird" specially on this forum, but right now it's another discussion.
I apologize if I was a jerk... of course everything changes with time and technology and nothing is etched into stone (specially in this sport), but I tend to carve a couple teachings on my personal stone and keep trying to improve my riding before trying something completely different. That's why, maybe, I find Corser's tips a little bit eye-popping (on the negative side).
Apology accepted...
IMHO the CSBK's school , based on yet another of my guesstimate... might actually favor some specific type of bike setup . They used to have kawasaki's and now have S1000rr's . both have for a lack of a better term, the worse mass centralization in the class (pipe and swingarm mass +position ) but the best in electronics ,maximum engine output and suspension (BMW with their DDC , kawa with their BPF) .
the best pipe centralization now is the panigale / RC8R (pipe doesnt extend beyond the swingarm pivot point)
the best swingarm mass centralization/llowest cog now WAS the 2014 R1 (look at the 2014 RC213V and you will see why , its "upside down" )
Thou with a modern 21st century era sportbike... getting that type of setup might be as easy as changing a pair of tires , a few clicks here and there on the suspension and maybe playing with the front triple clamp for rake angle adjustments if you are a 150 pound rider...
I do agree that the CSBK school of thought has and still is serving me with the widest sweet spot range on the streets , thou its mainly geared for racing. but i do take tidbits that are not from the CSBK school of thouht here and there, try to add it to the mix and see if the results are better or worse , integrating the better ones and dumping the ones that dont work every now and then.
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I designed my own seat and had New Image Seats make it from my old frame. The main issue for me was too much accelleration and nothing to stop me from sliding off the back. I made a bolster and taped it to the rear of my stock seat. It does the same job of the "hump" on a Busa but it's soft. The next model I make will have about a half of the bolster behind me so I can get into a tuck more easily. The new one will have a higher profile as I still tend to slide backwards because it's too low. My current design also positions me a little too far forward as I took Keith's personal preference about having a forward position and his instruction that it is always the same too literally. I'm crunched up against the tank too tight. The finish is comfortable and good looking with a carbon fiber style covering which gets a little slippery when polished. I like that feel so I can slide over from one side to the other more easily to hang off but not so slick that I fall off. It would be suitable for someone who wants a more upright casual riding position. The seat back of the new Ninja looks to be the design I was trying to achieve but was not able to see in my minds eye. I'm still happy wih my seat compared to the stock.
wow that kinda looks comfy, like a majesty 400's seat to be precise.
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yeah, right.
IMO we are trying to find excuses to validade what he said because he means something within our sport.
if a "nobody" said the same thing, he/she would be bashed around here (like many did trying to defend body steering). but the ankles/footwork tips are quite good.
well, back to the topic, thanks for the tips; I'll try to push REAL HARD off brakes.
Im not even a troy corser fan.
If you dont like discussing something which i find very meaningful (suspension and geometry) , i can always turn a blind eye towards your discussion.
btw what bashing?
You do know the lessons are pretty much just an everchanging and evolving school of tought and not etched into stone do you? or not.
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I know Corser is a world champion, almost a legend, or something like that.
but maybe he lacks theoretical understanding and/or didactics... that's why he talks so much "BS" (or, for a lighter/respectful therm, "weird things") for us indoctrinated by CSS.
maybe his bike is spec-ed differently imho (ie lower rebound damping but with 2mm lowered triple clamp for ex compared to stock)
the rebound damping topic mentioned by hotfoot had me thinking why some bikes steer differently with just a few suspension changes...
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My bike is definitely not underdamped in the rebound department and offer significantly slower rebound than what you see in videos online, for instance. Also, my preferences has been the same with 30-odd bikes, ranging from little to lots of damping.
maybe you have too much rebound damping?
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The new S1000RR with clutchless downshifting and alll the other goodies would be awesome.
from a review, I heard the DDC addon is much better than the HP4 ... sweet
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Yes, and I agree - I also try to stay off the brakes these days and for the most part I manage. However, I still prefer to enter corners on a trailing throttle over a steady throttle.
Erik,based on my guessitmate...
your bike is seriously underdamped , hence you have to load up and stabilize both the front and rear suspension with the minimum amount of lean angle... your suspension wont hold (it would go up and down like a pirate ship) properly if you don't enter a turn trailing the throttle.
I have the same experience with stock bikes tuned for comfort and a huge load range (jack of all trades master of none) , they have to be "loaded up" to feel stable from entry to exit of a corner, esp for a light rider. heavier guys on stock bikes "go faster" in corners because of this, their weight overwhelms/counters the stock "underdamped" rebound damping, technically its not underdamped for them in the corner because of the higher G forces loaded on the tires and fork throughout the corner due to centrifugal forces ; i still eat them for all 3 meals on the straights thou.
My bike only has a cheap aftermarket rear (its only preload adjustable) and a re-oiled front (the springs and internals are stock) but the thicker oil(+10to 15% at given temps) in front means i only have to trail brake up to the turn point , do a quick flick , and Im already holding if not opening up the throttle with next to no $ of the $10 on the brake department therafter (unless an emergency pops up)
Such a setup and cornering habit easily yields me an additional 7-10km/h going out of turns compared to anything stock with easily more than enough left of the $10 worth of attention for emergencies while street riding.
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Eirik - something to take a look at on your bike is your front suspension setup. The way your front end is set up can make a big difference in confidence entering corners, on or off the brakes. For example, a front end that is very soft - especially if the rebound damping is set very low (soft) - can compress under braking, but then pop back up (extend) when you let off the brakes, prior to - or entering - a corner. Then once in the corner the front will compress again from the cornering load. This is a disconcerting feeling as the handling of the bike changes as the geometry changes, and that odd feel and unpredictable handling can really affect the rider's confidence in entering a corner.
Once the suspension is set up properly, then the way the rider manages timing on the brakes can also really improve the situation. The ideal scenario for a regular 90 degree type corner* is to get the bulk of the braking done prior to your chosen turn point, then taper off the brakes such that you are releasing the brake right as you turn the bike, so that the front end stays compressed throughout - first from the braking, then from the cornering load - but without that full brake release in between that allows the front forks to extend. (*There are exceptions to that ideal scenario - some high speed entry decreasing radius corners that might be handled differently, staying on the brakes longer.)
If the rebound damping on the bike is REALLY low, it can force the rider to have to stay on the brakes harder and longer than he/she should have to; increasing the rebound damping can slow down the reaction from the front end and make it much easier for the rider to have more of a brake release at the turn point without getting that uncomfortable compromise in handling that comes from the front forks extending right as you are turning the bike.
If you can get to a school, overcoming barriers like this - that seem insurmountable - is one of the greatest feelings in the world, and the Superbike School is expert at helping you do just that.
that explains why the new guys trail brake like mad on a new bike around my area ; the rebound damping is rubbish for sporty riding hence they are compensating for the front end "popping back" in a corner with stock suspension.
there are quite a few ways to "gear" (hardware wise) and "hack" (software wise, esp riding skills) around it , one is what you said ,properly tuned suspension with adequate rebound damping.
leaning into the corner (upper body only on streets) also brings some weight towards the front , which keeps the front fork compressed "longer" ; i would say with a higher grade of the quick flick + throttle skill , you can actually bridge the gap of the "pogo-ing transition" between off the brakes , flipping the bike and gassing the throttle , hence totally prevent the pogo effect even with really soft front suspension (which is a dozen a penny on stock bikes as they are tuned for comfort and usually a 150 pound rider) , thou it will definitely take up a huge chunk of the $10 to pull it off compared to a bike with worked out suspension~
Erik is flipping out because based on my guessitmate, the skillset he has isnt up to grade in retrospect to his extremely underdamped rebound suspension both front and aft ; he needs all the help he can muster to keep the front from popping up in corners...
road-riding buddies enter corners faster than I do. However, by mid-corner, I'm already up their exhaust pipes (if I'm not careful) and before the corner unwinds, I'm long gone. (Like I said, I've never thought of it before), but maybe suspension set-ups this is part of the reason ...
Evidence Of The Modern Riding Style?
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
I would say on a "frameless" bike like the Ducati 1199R...
IMHO it takes much more active management(TC + body postioning ) to stabilize the bike
I know you like Duhan's style of hanging off by the arse but Duhan has Honda's perimeter frame + one crazy low COG + light bike during the GP500 days.
Torque buildup was also much smaller on GP500 bikes compared to newer 4 stroke bikes of the 999CC MOTOGP era.
now factor in that Mr Bayliss rides like duhan ...
BUT
with a frameless bike (lighter but less forgiving) , higher AND more rearwards COG (V configuration 4 stroke), crazy torque delivery (V2 desmo) and a single sided swingarm ( direct opposite of a perimeter based gullwing swingarm)
you get a recipe for wiggles , shakes and disaster
(the 1199R is like a loaded spring with no energy to dissipate but snap back unlike a u shaped perimeter frame where the energy can oscillate and dissipate without noticeable effect on the stability) when pushed over the limit.
The Germans aint dumb you see, they dissected Japan's big 4 and learned to best or even beat them in those areas that they excel.
Even Aprilia went for the perimeter frame + 2 sided swingarm approach.
Ducati's motoGP effort... perimeter frame + 2 sided swingarm should tell alot on what works and dont on the top level of racing in the world...
just my 2c