mugget

Haha yeah that is a cool photo from practice. On the grid before the race one of the commentators asked him why he was trying to get his helmet on the ground, he said he was just enjoying himself! And after the race on the cool down lap he did actually touch his helmet on the ground. Not trying to achieve anything other than just playing around! Lean angle is already so high, so he just decided to dip his head down & see if it was possible. Maybe he also saw the "Ghillie Man" video and wanted to join the club.

No doubts about corner exit, that is exactly as I would describe it as well. But throttle use at the beginning of a turn... that is how I used to ride, which made it pretty much impossible to be fast or smooth in double apex or decreasing radius turns, or to quick steer and use a late turn point. I think I have misunderstood something or we are not quite on the same page... Ok, putting aside the thread topic for a moment - if rolling on the throttle makes the bike more stable and gives more traction then I want it to happen as early in the corner as possible (stability & traction are good things!). But since it locks you on a line which is an opening/widening line out of the turn then I wouldn't want to apply the throttle too early, before I'm confident that I will be able to reach my exit point (running wide off the track is not so good!). What I mean by "re-apply throttle" is that I enter turns with zero throttle. (With the exception of just starting to experiment with this one fast turn.) Here's how I approach turns at the moment: Spot the turn-in point & look into the turn Roll-off throttle (used brakes if required) to adjust speed Still looking thru the turn, initiate steering input when I reach the turn-in point Spot the exit point/exit line When I reach a point in the turn when I know that throttle application will produce the desired exit line, then I re-apply throttle. I'd say that majority of the time this would be after the apex. Basically whenever I re-apply throttle I'm solidly into the turn exit, not spending much time at all with that 6th gear roll-on feeling. Aiming to apply throttle as smoothly and quickly as possible to get back into some good acceleration & use all available rear traction. I would also say that there isn't much time mid-turn where I'm just coasting or doing nothing. Steering inputs would last until right up to the apex or just before, so there's a pretty quick transition from steering input to throttle input. Please tell me there isn't a massive flaw in my riding and I've been doing it wrong all this time? Haha

Hmm... I've gotta get my hands on my book again and re-read that section... But I've always taken that 6th gear roll-on as the type of acceleration that would happen when the throttle is re-applied on corner exit (or mid-corner or whenever the throttle is re-applied). With that "6th gear" roll-on being almost a base level acceleration that increases from there. 1) I would begin the "6th gear" roll-on basically as soon as I re-apply throttle in a turn. And as a general rule I only apply throttle once I'm sure that I will make my intended exit line and not run wide etc. For instance when I "crack on" the throttle I would aim to go straight into that 6th gear roll-on feel (generally speaking). 2) Once the throttle is applied it should be rolled on smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn.

Thanks for the replies everyone. Gives me a bit more faith in myself to know that I'm pretty spot on with my approach. Still, it's good to be able to have it confirmed & talk it through since it's all new territory for me. How far leaned over... me, doesn't feel like really high lean. Definitely other slower corners on the track where I use more lean angle. But it also depends how fast you're taking the corner... I would expect my lean angle to increase as I get faster through there. The fastest riders would be going through there with knee slider on the ground - so plenty of lean for them! Interesting points csmith12. Times like this have me rethinking life decisions, thinking I should have started on a 250 instead of a 600 and relatively quickly moving to a 1000. But not to worry, I'm still having massive amounts of fun! Thanks Hotfoot! *phew* No kiss of death! I'm relieved! Definitely lots of factors to consider though... actually just reading through all of this makes me think that this type of riding might even be more challenging than trail braking? It seemed like I "naturally" started to try out a bit of trail braking much much earlier compared to when I thought about using throttle through a turn. Then again, maybe I did have the wrong idea about it and think of it as the kiss of death... who knows. Cheers Benny, definitely no problems here with lock on. Actually I've always seemed to be really comfortable and the most stable in high speed turns. Points noted T-McKeen. Definitely no sudden steering inputs happening in this fast turn, and at that speed the front end hasn't shown any signs of instability so far. But it will definitely take quite a few more laps before I manage to neutralise deceleration using throttle, then next step is to see if I can actually accelerate through. I have always been a very cautious rider, zero crashes on track and I aim to keep it that way. Interesting that you mention courage though... personally I feel like that has much less to do with my riding now that I'm looking at things objectively - it seems more like a simple equation of the result I want to achieve and what I need to do to make it happen. I guess I take a more rational approach to my riding now, much less emotional involvement. That kind of outlook kind of takes away the fun when I go to a themepark and go on the big "scary" rides, but if that's the price for being a safe, fast rider I'm okay with it. Next question - I was just thinking about how acceleration out of a turn can be described as similar to the acceleration if you roll-on 6th gear at 100km/h or 60mph on the highway. Is there a similar description for acceleration through a turn, can the same apply? Or maybe it's quite a different feeling because there's more cornering forces involved and lots of different factors like the speed, lean angle etc.?

Hi all, At a track day recently I was watching some of the riders in fast group enter a particular turn, one of them was riding at tyre-blistering pace and what really made me take notice was the fact that he was entering this fast sweeping turn still on the throttle! I have never noticed anyone do that before, so I kept watching and sure enough lap after lap it was the same thing. He would just roll off the throttle at or after the apex. I meant to go and talk to him but didn't get a chance... Here's the track I'm talking about, this particular corner is called "The Kink", first corner after the straight: It's pretty fast through there, for me it's 5th gear easily 200km/h+ (125mph+). Previously I have always been rolling off the throttle and turning in, then back on the throttle to accelerate to the Karusel. But when I saw this other rider using throttle into the Kink I started thinking hey, why not? There's plenty of room and I accelerate out of it anyway so obviously I'm not going into it as fast as I can? Well here is the reason for "why not", summed up by Hotfoot in this previous thread: Add to that the fact that I have thought about it before, but have always been worried about inadvertent throttle input while making steering inputs... But I thought I would just start out giving it a try anyway... after seeing someone else do it... well it must be possible! Since it's such a fast corner, quick flick isn't really doable (or at least not possible to the same extent as slower corners) so I didn't feel that using throttle would compromise the steering input. I started out just adding some throttle to reduce deceleration, still rolling off before the apex. And gradually kept adding more throttle, but still not accelerating into the turn and still rolling off before/at the apex and accelerating out. This was towards the end of the day so I didn't get much time to keep experimenting with that, but was pretty chuffed with it so far considering that previously I wouldn't have even thought about it, let alone have been game enough to try it. I should be back next month and will keep working on this. So I just wanted to ask how others have handled similar turns? And what other tracks have the same kind of setup? First one that comes to mind is the big left hand kink in the straight at Laguna Seca? I have read that when races were held at this track back in the day, racers on 600's would be able to hold it open through the Kink in 6th gear on a really good lap with fresh tyres. But that same article mentioned that lots of people kidded themselves that they held the throttle flat through there as well... My thoughts at the moment are that I should be able to work up to accelerating into the turn, tapering off to more of a neutral/maintenance throttle nearing the apex just to reduce engine braking. Next step would be to see how the tyres and bike are handling that, if the bike is stable then trying to maintain some light acceleration all the way through the turn. Trying to think of anything from the Twist books/DVD that would apply to this type of situation, but I've leant of my copy of the Twist 2 book & DVD to a friend. Help a guy out! Cheers!

I'm just trying to catch up on this forum, saw this topic and it took my interest... Some questions - is no throttle roll-on the real reason for dragging parts here? Does correct throttle usage have anything to do with applying throttle at a particular part of a turn? What would have happened if he started to roll-on the throttle before he scraped, in order to try and prevent the bike from scraping? At that stage wasn't lean angle still increasing? Let me know your thoughts...

Just had to reply to this - you're right it seems a unnatural because it is completely unnatural! And that's why anyone who is riding by instinct/intuition/"natural ability" is doing something wrong... By definition it's not possible to correctly undertake an unnatural activity by using our natural instincts, which just goes to show how important training is! Haha, I think he was playing it up for you. I wonder if that still applies when the rider he's passing missed his own brake marker and carried an extra 20km/h into the corner and is about to run off the track?

mazur - just a comment on the clutch plates glazing. When I went for my very first test to get the learners license the instructors told us not to worry about the clutch, just to drag it and slip it as much as we need, that we wouldn't hurt it. That's how I've been riding every single bike I've ever ridden since. And no clutch problems at all. Basically motorbikes are designed for that, they have something in the region of 3-4x as many clutch plates as a car for example. So don't sweat it, drag the clutch as you needed. EricG, glad to hear you've been trusting your tyres more and more. Faith works, more faith works better. But I was a bit scared to read about your "toe test"! A couple of questions for you - do you think that method is an accurate, consistent gauge over a wide range of conditions? Could the attention spent on your toe test be better used elsewhere, perhaps directed towards an aspect of the tyres operation?

Well this is an interesting topic... so far we have 1 for risk, and 3 for control!! Count me as another one who identifies with the "control" aspect of riding. If someone asked me if I enjoyed the risk in riding I would probably say "no" and follow it up with "what risk??" Obviously there's the potential for risk, but I'm generally a risk-averse kinda guy. The way I see it is that when I'm riding a bike, I'm in control and I just don't do things that are risky. I don't see it as an inherently risky activity. After attending CSS I'm riding way faster than I ever have, but at the same time safer. My record of zero on-track crashes remains. I will also put my hand up for the wanting to go faster part of it. But again, I don't see it as speed = risk. For me it's more about developing my skills and gaining even more control. If I can go faster and faster, all while being in control - that's what I really enjoy. If there was a sketchy situation that I was unsure of and I thought there was a 50/50 chance I'd make it, I wouldn't go for it. Being as risk-averse as I am, my judgement of a situation like that would probably be on the conservative side and chances are that I would actually make it, but I prefer to avoid the risk and build up to it methodically. Maybe it has something to do with going fast, succeeding, remaining in control and conquering the risk? It's also interesting that the majority (if not all?) successful racers are not the same kind of risk-taking yahoos who might enjoy things like base jumping or Russian roulette! Those racers are fairly calm and sedate when they're off the bike (and probably still fairly calm when they're on the bike) - you wouldn't think that MotoGP World Champion and fishing would go together, but there you have it in Casey Stoner! Or maybe my brain is cross-wired and I'm actually a secret risk-manic adrenalin-junkie who has the concepts of risk and control completely reversed!

I thought it might have been Schumi after I posted that reply. Don't worry Darth Peachy, his coma-related accident wasn't motorsport related. I keep forgetting about it until someone reminds me, you always expect a motorsport star like him to be hurt on the track if anywhere!

Haha - I probably shouldn't laugh though, poor #77 just had an expensive moment. But it does look funny and is it just me or does he seem not the slightest bit surprised about his current situation? ktk_ace, even throttle depends on the desired outcome... for example I often ride certain types of corners with no handlebar input, no throttle input either. (Remember this is about the actual cornering part, not the corner exit.)

Interesting... so how much rider input is actually needed once the turn-in is complete?

One other thing that may effect or cause exhaust flames is the particular engine management system or other electronics. Either the ECU and/or traction/wheelie control etc., I believe that some systems stop fuel at the injectors, while others let the fuel keep running and just cut the spark.

I just saw this video posted on the CSS Australia Facebook page, I thought I would share here because it's interesting to get a bit of a look behind the scenes and see what Cobie Fair and Adam Raffe have to say about being a coach at California Superbike School. And of course it would be great if any other coaches would like to add their comments on what it's like. I have one other question as well - Cobie talks about "the latest" that they've been doing in the States. Keith Code is working on another book AFAIK, is the latest referring to riding techniques or some of that books content, or coaching techniques/skills, or a bit of both? Or is it top secret?

I've never been a big fan of goals for some reason... But I can tell you what is going to happen - I'm going to finish building my supermoto and get to some SM track days. Then I'll start applying CSS techniques to SM riding... I will be on a mission to prove to the SM regulars that CSS is valid to supermoto. I would also like to do some flat track riding. And maybe get out in the bush for some dirt bike riding. Planning to do CSS Level 2 in the first half of this year, maybe go to Phillip Island for Level 3 in the 2nd half of the year - see how things go!

Interesting, I never even considered practice for gear shifts. Well, at least not "practice" as in doing set drills or routines. For me it was all practiced whenever I was riding, mostly around the suburbs during my commute. No specific drills as such, just refining my sense of timing for throttle blips, smooth shifts etc. I guess the practice was just practicing "doing it right", as mentioned by Casey Stoner in his biography (a very interesting read, BTW!) Adjusting the controls to your liking is a good start, but I'm not so sure on adding padding to the shift lever? Early on I also had a habit of using too soft a movement on the gear shift lever, lots of false neutrals and failed shifts (not such a good thing for the bike either - just remember to always shift UP if you get a false neutral, to avoid gear damage). But I don't see the solution to be modification of the shift lever (certainly adjust the position if needed), but it seems more beneficial to just learn the correct amount of force to use on the lever... learn to "do it right". That way you'll be able to transfer your skill from bike to bike, and not find yourself feeling uncomfortable if you ride a bike that doesn't have your mod.

Just getting back to this thread now... I missed the fact that you were talking about ABS & TC in cars, but I'm still surprised!! Interesting to hear your thoughts on electronics in cars, but IMO you can't compare that to bikes. (What car exactly are you talking about anyway?) I know that you say the S1000RR rain mode made you mad, I said that it's "like being mad..." I think my point is still valid. Or maybe we just crossed wires and are both talking about different things. And the fact that the electronic aids on some bikes can never be completely turned off - that's something to consider when buying the bike, I think of it as similar to when other things have become standard on bikes - you either have a choice to accept the change, or hold out and keep riding older bikes. I get what you're saying about systems operating when not expected, but are there any bikes that actually behave like that?? I've not heard of them. The other part of it is that perhaps people just need to get used to the electronics and accept that bikes with those aids will ride differently. The same as you'd expect a different riding experience when jumping from a sportsbike to a cruiser, the same could be true when going from a "traditional" bike to one with electronic aids?

confident ˈkɒnfɪd(ə)nt/ adjective feeling or showing confidence in oneself or one's abilities or qualities. "she was a confident, outgoing girl" synonyms: self-assured, assured, sure of oneself, self-confident, positive I would define it just the same as the dictionary. But it's interesting that it can be either feeling or showing confidence... you can do something that demonstrates confidence, but you can also have the exact same confidence without having done anything at all & just sitting on your bum. For me that's where the danger can lie, so if I do start to feel confident I analyse the reasons why, to make sure that I have solid grounds for it. Or you could say that I always aim to be realistic, and ensure that my perceptions match as closely as possible with the reality of the situation. As for how confident I am - I am 100% confident! But you need to consider that in light of the above paragraph. I am confident in my current skill level, I know what I can do and I also know when I'm riding over my head. I'm also confident of what I need to learn and what areas I need to improve in. How to improve my confidence? I think I view confidence a bit differently to most people. I wouldn't say that I need to improve my "confidence", I don't doubt my current abilities or the fact that I can still improve and have more to learn. But when I think of the idea behind this type of question I would answer that I would improve by continuing to make sure that I have a realistic outlook. Making sure that my subjective observations match the objective reality. I tend not to look at situations (say a particular corner that I want to go faster through) in terms of "okay, I'm confident I can do this, yep I can do it!" Rather I just try to look at it realistically. Maybe I really can't do what I want at that time, and that's okay if that's the reality of the situation. But that doesn't lower my confidence, actually that would probably increase my confidence because I've learnt more about my current skill level and found where I can improve. In the same way I don't look at faster riders and let it get my confidence down ("Oh man, I'm never going to be as fast as those guys!"). I would say that I don't gauge my confidence based on performance. Like I say, I probably view this differently to most people - I'm not a super quick rider, but I would say that I have very high confidence. That's my take on it!

I'm all for music while riding. I mean if it was really such a bad thing, Honda wouldn't have put a stereo in the Goldwing, would they? The way I think of it is that yes, music could be a distraction if you focus on that to the detriment of your riding. But this is true of anything else while riding - there are many possible distractions, you could focus on the dent in the armco where a vehicle has crashed, you could focus on the pretty lady walking down the street. But as a rider you choose what to focus on, you can decide what distracts you and what doesn't. Actually that leads to an interesting question - what is more important for a rider, to be able to eliminate possible distractions, or to be able to deal with them so they never actually distract? Personally I tend not to listen to music on short trips, only because I figure it's not worth the hassle to put in the ear buds & fiddle with the cord, etc. And my exhaust gives it's own soundtrack when it can run through the rev range around town and in tunnels (oh, the tunnels!). Long stints on the highway are completely different, mind-numbingly boring to just hear that constant-rpm exhaust drone... anything more than an hour on highways, I'll usually go for the music. I would wear ear plugs anyway, which cuts the wind noise and general "loudness", but that exhaust drone is still there. Music just helps break that up. A couple of times I have listened to music while riding the twisties, I think it actually enhances the experience. I would say that I can have a tendency to take my road riding a bit too seriously sometimes, having a bit of music in the background seems to remind me "hey, chill out - enjoy the ride". But I never have music so loud that I can't hear other vehicles, horns etc. #1 that would damage hearing, #2 it's a poor excuse as to why you didn't hear the police siren. Another thing I've found is that the canalphones (in-ear headphones) are so much better than regular headphones. They act partly as an ear plug which is the only way you can use them while riding without big volume. You can get some good low-profile ones that fit well under a helmet. Tried regular headphones once and I either couldn't hear the music over the wind noise, or I arrived part-deaf because I had to have the volume up so loud (louder than the wind noise)!

When looking at different diet and weight loss options I would just advise people to be very critical and look for evidence of it's effectiveness. Specifically, scientific evidence. I will just say that there is no scientific basis for the blood type diet, nor homeopathy and similar alternative therapies. Edit: Just realised that I already said that, but being sure of the scientific basis is an important point! Otherwise you're just chasing after the wind.

Yep, them's the rules. Not sure if that's universal across all amateur classes (only for the sake of easier bike prep/open to more bikes I think), but generally no brakes allowed. Pretty sure I remember something about it being a safety issue as well.

Cheers Hotfoot I think you just changed my mind about horses! Maybe I will ride a horse one day... Makes sense about their vision, since their eyes are on the side of that big head of theirs! Who knew it was so involved & detailed... that's another similarity with riding motorcycles I suppose. benhamf15, maybe there is more to that Icon helmet design than meets the eye? Then again... maybe not.

Ah, right. I haven't done that yet. But you had me interested in why it would be a racing technique and not a riding technique, I'll put it down to choice of werds!

I've gotta agree... if a rider believes they're going to run wide and the outside of the turn is the edge of a mountain or armco (most likely placed at the edge of the mountain!) then it makes not much sense to try and stand the bike up and stop. Guaranteed you will go off the mountain (either with the bike, or flipping over the bike when it hits the armco). I know that the brakes work better with both wheels on the ground and the bike upright, but turning does also reduce speed. And if the option is possibly making the turn, or definitely going off a cliff... And let's be honest, the majority of riders do grossly underestimate their maximum lean. Actually I am probably guilty of this to a certain degree on the street as well, only because I'm used to keeping an extra safety margin. But when it's not an option to run wide, I know that I must keep turning, then keep turning some more until I make the corner. I see that as an exercise in mental discipline, to stay focussed and basically exercise my force of will to overcome any doubts or fears and just do what I need to. I just realised how much is involved in that question. Not sure if you have the TOTW 2 DVD available to you, so here's my response to your questions (which is not by any means comprehensive). First of all consider the #1 cause of mid-turn crashes. The brakes! If you look at any race footage or Rnickeymouse vids on YouTube you'll see that no one just lowsides all of a sudden with no reason, the vast majority involve the use of the front brake. Next consider that if you have enough traction available to use the brakes, that means you could also use that traction turn turn even harder, a mid-turn "quick flick" if you like. Then think of what will happen to your ground clearance if you do apply the brakes mid-turn - you'll have reduced ground clearance and won't be able to turn as much. All of those point lead me to the conclusion that I would leave the brakes completely alone, and focus 100% on just turning more and making the turn. One other point to note is that if you do happen to freeze up and you find yourself coasting with zero steering input, zero brake or throttle input, your reducing speed will actually result in a tightening line, so you can bring the bike back away from the edge of the road. Or perhaps you can use that moment to gain your composure, realising that you're no longer heading to the edge of the road you could clear your mind of thoughts of imminent death and get back to the task at hand. I know exactly the type of situation you're talking about, except for me it's usually leaves on the outside edge of the road. For me it helps to keep the correct mental objective. The objective is not to stay clear of the leaves... not really. The objective is to stay on line and complete the turn. As long as I am accurate with my turn points, steering input etc. then everything is fine, I can even ride close to the leaves without a problem (not recommending that BTW, but sometimes it's required to keep my entire body in my own lane). I give up. Please do tell!

Add to that the fact that flat track bikes are setup or even designed and built to be ridden that way, in those exact circumstances. Which makes it easier to control the slide, etc. You could take your road bike (ZX-14, Gixxer, GS500) and ride it in a similar manner on a dirt track, but I'd bet it would be a lot more of a handful, difficult to control! Not having ridden flat track (yet) I can only guess that the difference is similar to riding a motard on the streets, compared to a sportsbike. Slides on the motard are much more controllable, actually I find that I can generally ride like a hooligan on a motard and be quite confident doing so, compared to a sportsbike for example. Not too sure that it's correct to say that wet asphalt offers more grip than dirt, especially a dirt track? They talk about the "blue groove" which is basically when the dirt gets so hard packed and the tyres are actually laying down rubber onto the dirt! There are pictures of flat track race tyres which judging by the wear pattern you would swear they had been ridden around a road race track - there's plenty of grip! I tend to think that it comes down to having the right tools for the right job. I think the reason you don't see riders sliding like flat trackers in the rain is because they have the wrong tools for that job.