aslcbr600

I have not raced yet but I will be this upcoming season. When I watch youtube videos of on board cameras at the front of the bike I started thinking to myself....in a racing enviornment how do you balance your "vanishing point" and if you are close to the rider in front of you while going through a turn? I know that more importantly you want to keep your line and your direction and not focus on the rider but would you look past and through the rider in front to your apex or line. Or would you be only focused on your line and just try to keep that other rider in your window of vision. Not saying to spend your attention money on the rider but to just be aware of not running up into the rear of the riders bike or if the rider starts to lose control of the bike you can hopefully have enough time to change your line and avoid getting caught up in the mix.

That makes sense, I think you are right on the braking aspect of focusing on the braking rather then setting the speed.....as KC would say "dont spend all of your attention on one thing" and I think that's exactly what is happening, I need to realize that I am not trying to go from 120mph to 20mph rather say 120mph- to still 80mph. I will also start using end of braking markers instead, I read about that before but never had a chance to practice it before the riding season ended.

Ok just so I can go back over this and not have to read through the clutter let me see if this is accurate on what needs to be worked on: - Visual skills on perception of braking distances - Set braking points at a comfortable distance - Better manipulation of the brake lever - Understanding how much pressure to apply and when

I haven't tried trailbraking yet because I didn't want to have SR's flaring up if I screwed up the process. When I had my CBR600RR it had OEM pads, stock brake lines and rotors, on the Daytona 675 it had EBC race pads, braided lines and Nissin brakes instead of the tokico brakes. It was a HUGE difference in stopping power but I feel like I couldn't change the habit of riding the CBR on the braking side of things. Not trying to take the rider out of the equation but the suspension was also setup for a 200lbs rider and I am 180 at best with gear on, I didn't bother getting the suspension re-sprung because I knew I was going to resell the bike and get something else. So the suspension was very stiff and it was hard for me to even get any real feedback from the bike on how much the front was compressing and the rear end of the bike barely felt like it was compressing when rolling on the throttle through the turns. Now I don't have much experience with high speed braking, I just really feel like my braking is my weakest point for so many reasons like perception of speed (visual skills) consistency of over braking (probably SR's being triggered) and just lack of experience with such a big jump in braking power upgrades. On the CBR I have locked up the front brake before and got the front to rapidly chatter but I didn't panic, didn't crash, I was still maintaining my direction of travel and just naturally fixed the issue. Never locked up the front brake on the 675 though and never really got a whole lot of seat time on that bike either. It wasn't a bike I was very comfortable on, in fact I hated it compared to the CBR but it was still a fun bike to ride just didn't mesh with me that well. Oh and the reason the front brake locked was because I was still new to riding and a car in front of me slammed on their brakes and so I was in a bit of a panic. Only happened that one time though!

I do quick flick and late turn in points using the 2step drill, it doesn't feel abrupt to me because I make sure to also make the quick flick smooth and not just throw the bike onto it's side. Going down the straight I am focused down not what's immediately in front of me, then I as I get the bike slowed down enough I then get out of the full tuck and continue looking out. Once I feel that I have set my speed I come to realize that it's slower then I wanted to enter the corner and I am neutral throttle for too long, way too long in my opinion....in other words I have enough time to get back to the gas for a higher turn entry speed BUT without charging the turn. I don't snap the gas and roll off as the turn comes. How long does it take you to load the front before the hard braking (while straight up and down)? Honestly on this I can't really say and this is why I feel like my braking process is inconsistent, it's not the quick flick, I am not charging the turns, I am using the 2step drill and I have done all of the same corners with the no brakes drill without undershooting my entry speed.

I have done the no brakes drill and I don't cut myself short on the entry speed, the problem I am running into isn't that I feel I can take the corner faster because I know I can it's that I am not judging my braking distance correctly. I come up to the corner and apply the brakes, however I slow the bike down too hard too early because my entry speed isn't where I want it so I find myself getting back to the gas to up my speed. Or I find myself neutral throttle holding my speed too long before the corner where I feel like I could have braked much later and stayed on the gas.

Hmmm.......well let me explain what exactly happens, so I am coming off of 4th gear down shifting into 3rd and applying the brakes. I don't just grab a hand full of brake I progressively squeeze the brake lever and then I brake hard, once my hard braking is done I realize "###### now I am going too slow" and I am back to the gas and using my throttle to set my turn entry speed instead of the brakes..... So I know that tells me my braking points could be much deeper, however I feel like how I squeeze the brake lever is still inconsistent maybe not in a huge way but enough to notice a difference that is inconsistent. ace: Doesn't your braking points reflect setting your speed? You must have some RP other then your turn point to achieve your desired entry speed?

One of my biggest struggles I am having is setting my braking points and braking properly without undershooting myself slower then I wanted to enter the turn. I picked up KC's book "the soft science of riding" and the one thing that caught my attention was when KC was talking about understanding the difference of the forces of braking and the actual slowing down of the speed. I think what my issue is I am either going off the braking forces or how hard I apply the brakes is inconsistent....honestly probably a mix of both but more so how hard I apply the brakes. My question is should I be setting my braking points deeper or should I be keeping the points the same and then work on the technique of applying the brakes? I realize that if I am approaching slower into the corner then I wanted to that I could set my points deeper, however setting braking points is easier to learn and adjust then getting the feel for my brakes.

Looking forward to seeing what happens at your next trackday! Good luck getting it figured out dude.

No problem, hope you get it figured out!

The other common thing I see is when people use the knee to knee drill they actually lift their butt up in the air and transfer to the other side....this can cause a negative input to the handle bars and make the bike less stable and of course the faster you go the more it will input to the bars. Just slide your rear across the seat, it's actually faster to transition that way anyway....

I have brought this up on other forums and one thing that was brought up to me was bananas, the potassium in them helps you to retain all of the water you are drinking. I think a fitness section would be a great addition, after all they are called sportbikes for a reason lol.

I had Michellin Power Pure's on my 600RR and loved them....it had the harder compound in the center so you wouldn't flatten the tire out so easily when just cruising and the sides had the 2CT compound so it has that extra level of grip. Never had the chance to use them in the wet but they got great wet ratings and reviews. Before those I had Diablo Rosso's, they were a good tire but very slippery when new so it took me a good 100mi or so working into lean angles before they got broken in and the wet traction wasn't very confidence inspiring to say the least. The Power Pure's didn't have a hard fought break in, I was a little nervous to try adding more speed and lean on tires that had maybe 40-50mi on them but they impressed me!

Yup looks like rider input is the culprit for this one, if you have a gopro you should point it towards you so you can see exactly what your body is doing through that section. After a couple laps then turn the camera around and give it the track view, this way you can see both body and line. Sure it wont be exactly matched up but if you are hitting your RP's it shouldn't be terribly difficult to see if it's a mix of your line and body mechanics as you go through the turn. When I was first learning the body positioning I would always point the camera towards me, the camera doesn't lie....sometimes we think we are doing something and then realize by watching the video we are doing something slightly different then we actually thought. Not saying your BP is incorrect but you said you were using the "knee to knee" and hard counter steering to flick the bike over and maybe you could find a flaw in all of that body movement that you could rule out as what is really killing your speed through there. I was reading one of KC's books and it was saying bikes only do 2 things, change direction and change speed but riders do at least 7 different things....

Just throwing an idea out there but have you tried adjusting the suspension and then going through the chicane to see if you notice any difference in how easy it is to flick the bike or how it changed the feeling? Maybe adjusting the suspension and working on that part of the track will give you a better idea of how you can put the puzzle together of your suspension and what input you are doing on the bike to come up with a joint conclusion. Just thinking if you play with the suspension and you are getting the exact same results that it would come down to rider input...

Are the other riders on course around your level going through there much faster then you or is this just a personal goal? Just thinking to ask one of the higher level riders that aren't your competitor and see how they take it and what they do to get the bike flicked over faster. Wish I could be more of help but I don't want to try and give advice on an area that I am not experienced with and seem like I am talking out my rear lol.

Are you saying that you are losing drive during the chicane because you aren't able to flick the bike over fast enough hence not being back to the gas earlier? Or is your line through the entry of the chicane setting you up for failure?

I slide my back tire all the time , whether i like it or not so i guess its some sort of training ?? That brings up the "traction limit" talk From Mr Keith code If only we could all slide like Stoner!!! lol

Good points, I think that's pretty much what hotfoot and I have been talking about and some others as well. When you said "Which end of the bike would I rather slide first when reaching my traction limits in a corner?" Not sure if this is a rhetorical question but I am not trying to purposely slide the front, it's just a "what should I do if I encounter this happening". Otherwise of course sliding the rear tire around and squaring the bike up into the corner would be much more preferred lol.

Well, hypothetically if you are already at the ideal 40/60 weight distribution, BOTH front and rear tires would be at maximum traction so if you had too much speed for the conditions they would BOTH slide and you'd get a nice 2 wheel drift - or a crash. If ONLY the front is sliding, then theoretically you have more traction available in the rear and could shift some weight back there. Of course there are limits to traction - 40/60 weight distribution is as good as it gets for getting each tire to carry max load but of course it is still possible to enter a turn way too fast for the conditions and pitch the bike. Doing nothing at all and staying loose on the bars often allows the bike to regain traction in a slide, especially if the slide was due to a small slick spot or uneven pavement and is definitely far better than stiffening up or rolling off. As far as saving it with your knee, I haven't experienced that myself (although I have saved numerous slides by either rolling on or doing nothing and staying relaxed) but have heard of other coaches doing it and it is discussed in A Twist of the Wrist (the first one). If you search the forum you can find at least one thread where one of the coaches talks about it. Keep in mind that it IS possible to roll on the throttle and shift some weight off the front without actually increasing your speed; if you haven't already observed this, try a very slight roll on and watch what happens to your speed. Ah I didn't think about it that way, if you had 40/60 that the rear would most likely slide out as well. As far as the slight roll on I noticed that actually now that you bring it up, when I first started practicing throttle control I noticed that I was maybe increasing my speed 1-2 mph through the turn (on the street) and that my throttle roll on could be more aggressive. What did you think about the adjustments I provided for the turn when you asked what adjustments would need to be made after the pass?

"So if you are already leaned over and the front tire starts to slide, how could you change the weight to lighten the load on the front? In your post above, are you still on the brakes while leaned over in the turn?" You would be off of the brakes at this point, the only thing I can think of would be to apply the throttle but if you are already coming into the corner at too high of a speed how would applying the throttle help if you are also increasing speed so let's assume that your suspension is already at 40/60 and it's not a matter of suspension causing the front tire to overload but rather too high of an entry speed. Would that mean you just hope you can use your knee to help push the bike up a little bit or hope that being loose on the bars will just allow the bike to fix itself? "Another solution would be to prevent the slide in the first place, so let's play this out - if you enter a corner more on the inside than usual (because you are passing), what OTHER things do you need to change? What do you need to do with your turn point? What about your steering rate?" I think how tight the turn is would depict what you would do, as we all know there are turns that you just shouldn't pass on and you never take any turn the exact same way. I will use a tight right hand turn for example (not a hairpin but a tighter turn that you would see people pass on occasion) You would need to change your turn in point, it would have to be an earlier turn in rather then later because you are approaching the turn at a tighter angle. If you turned in later then you could take the angle too sharp and just run off track, you still want to avoid turning in too early because you don't want to push your lean angle anymore then you need to. The steering rate, I am not too sure how to describe this but picturing it in my head I would think that you would start out at a slower steering rate and then progressively increase the steering because once you get past the bend you will need to steer a little quicker to stay on track and not go too wide or run off. If I had the skill this would also be a point where I would use the rear brake and bring the rear of the bike around to square myself up into the corner so I could close the door on the racer behind me because since you passed on the inside and his line was cleaner he will be able to get back to the gas before you will so running too wide would make your pass virtually pointless because the other racer would regain position through mid turn.

I thought you guys were doing pretty well on your own, actually ... but I'll chime in. We all seem to agree that we want the optimum weight distribution (40 front 60 rear) to maximize traction. What errors can riders make that can INCREASE the load(s) on the front tire beyond the basic load of cornering? What actions can a rider take during a turn that can increase the load (unfavorably!) on the front tire? Not locking the knees on the tank and putting the weight on the bars, improper trailbraking such as having too much brake applied while coming into the corner, improper body positioning on the bike (being too far forward), coming into a corner too hot and excessive lean angle and chopping the gas while in the turn. Out of all of these errors and actions I listed the ones that I think would make me encounter a possible front tire slide would be coming into the corner too hot. I am using this as in the racing world, not just riding the street or trackdays but say you are trying to pass someone on the inside coming up on a right hand turn. You wait a little bit later to get on the brakes so you can get around the other racer, you realize that you are coming into the corner too hot and you are already at maximum braking and the front tire starts sliding. That scenario right there is what is leading me to think "if the front tire were to start sliding, what would I do to try and fix it".

Oh no doubt, I just wanted to have the knowledge on what to expect or try to be able to do to remedy the slide. It may even be something a little slippery on the track that causes the front to slide or maybe you were trying to pass someone on the outside and now you find yourself trailbraking into the corner because you passed your end of braking marker and coming into the turn too hot. Many different scenarios but just looking for the idea of how to try and prevent washing out if possible. My first (and only - so far) crash on track happened this way. It happens so fast you have mili-seconds to respond. I wish I had known the correct response, because what I did didn't work. It was cool that day and overcast. My tires were probably a little over-inflated for the conditions, but the more I relive that moment, the more I am convinced that tire pressure was not the only problem that day. When the front slid the first time that day, I was able to recover. The tire caught traction quickly and I made it through the turn. But it happened again a few laps later in the same turn and I ran into the grass and went down off the pavement. Maybe someone with more experience would have reacted differently, but my natural reaction was to stand the bike up a little. Of course, that makes you go wide. And if there's not enough room, you run off the pavement. I can say that for me, that feeling in the pit of your stomach when the front slides and you're leaned over at your limit is not one I wish to repeat. I can also say that applying throttle in that situation was the farthest thing from my mind. In fact, about the only thing that had time to go through my mind was "dammit!". I, too, would love to have some advice on what to try next time, but I also hope I never have to apply it. Thanks for the input, I figured standing the bike up would also be a bad idea but like you said with so little time to react you hope that your natural instinctive decision is the right one but it doesn't always work out that way! haha. Hopefully one of the coaches can put in some info on what they have experienced and found what does/ doesn't work to try and save it.

Oh no doubt, I just wanted to have the knowledge on what to expect or try to be able to do to remedy the slide. It may even be something a little slippery on the track that causes the front to slide or maybe you were trying to pass someone on the outside and now you find yourself trailbraking into the corner because you passed your end of braking marker and coming into the turn too hot. Many different scenarios but just looking for the idea of how to try and prevent washing out if possible.

Are you saying that a 40/60 weight distribution will fix a sliding front tire while it's sliding? If the front tire is sliding due to corner entry speed exceeding the tires limits? Not the suspension being out of optimum working range.