rootkit007

Points taken. Granted, I was not going very fast that day relative to faster riders, even if it felt mighty fast to me. I have to stop putting so much weight on my legs and move some to the seat, guess this is part of the 'relaxation' Plan on doing another TD soon, we'll see how it goes! Peter

I am getting there... starting to get some confidence back. Some corners are still unnerving. I certainly plan on going back to the same curve and riding it again. This is a good learning experience for me - riding is mostly mental, and your mental state varies from day to day. If I could take that corner yesterday at 50mph that does not mean I can do the same today. Relax, take it easy, recognize the signs and dont push the envelope too far! Thanks everybody! Peter

Is "hopefully it will come back" enough of a solution for you? Wouldn't you feel better if you had some actual control over your 'mental preparedness'? If just 'hoping it will get better' isn't good enough, have a look at A Twist of the Wrist II, Chapter 21, there is an actual drill described in there that you might find very useful. Assuming the basics are in place (you are fed, rested, hydrated, etc.) this drill can do wonders for preventing or correcting issues like "loss of concentration", difficulty judging correct entry speed, and just generally feeling unprepared for what is coming at you when you are riding. Regarding your other post about it being a blind corner - are you familiar with the Vanishing Point drill? Would looking for the vanishing point have helped keep your eyes moving ahead in the corner instead of getting hung up on the tar snakes or the place off the road where you ended up going? Thanks for the tip - I reread those chapters just now! I often practice looking through the turn or towards vanishing point just driving in a car. That day, however, I do not know what came over me and I made all the SR errors in the book - the same ones I have been practicing to avoid. Apparently I am not as good at managing my SRs as I thought, and need way more practice. Peter

I just turned 44, and have been riding for 3 years now. I am sure the mismatch between my speed and mental state was the cause of that crash - I know what had to be done, and what I didnt do right. What I dont like is that my mental preparedness was much lower than at a track day month earlier. Hopefully it will come back

Yes, I am familiar with the technique and have practiced it a lot, especially on track. The particular corner was blind so I didnt have a good reference point - still not an excuse for not looking towards the apex before initiating the turn. Peter

One thing that might help is to think through the crash so there is no mystery about why it happened, or how that situation could be avoided or corrected in the future. You mentioned a number of things - you felt you went in too fast, got scared of the traction (tar snakes) and lean angle, and went straight off into the grass. Looking back on it now, do you think you really were going too fast, or carrying too much lean angle, to make the turn, or did it just seem that way at the time? Do you remember how the turn looked to you as you entered it? Did you have a wide view of the whole thing or did your eyes get hung up on the tar snakes, or the edge or the road? (Bear with me, I may ask a variety of questions to see if we can pin down exactly what was going on - there may have been multiple things that contributed to the crash but ideally we'd like to find the first error, the one that likely triggered additional SRs - in other words, what happened right BEFORE everything started going wrong.) I wasnt too fast (except in my mind). I wasnt carrying too much lean angle. It was all mental. I would have definitely made that turn if I committed to it. I got fixated on those tar snakes in front of me, didnt look through the turn (doh!). I did all the wrong things. The single biggest reason IMO was that I just wasnt feeling confident at the time. Should I have committed to the turn I would have been fine. Mental preparedness. Peter

I blew a corner last week. A classic SR scenario - unfamiliar snake turn on unfamiliar road, carried too much speed for my comfort zone, got scared of tar snakes and lean angle, went straight off the road and down in the grass. Broke plastic fairings, bent subframe. I got a small bruise on calf (was wearing full protection which I think saved my bacon). Leathers got dirty, not torn. Obviously I blame myself for getting scared of that turn - I have been on track and into much more extreme lean angles (down to scraping pegs) than was required for that corner. I shouldnt have been afraid of that lean angle, yet I wasnt feeling safe there. In fact thinking back I wasnt feeling safe that day on the road at all for no reason. My family, of course, now is even more against track days and street rides. I feel I got a good lesson, but not sure how to get back the confidence needed for riding a sports bike. I wonder how others have dealt with similar situations and got back into saddle? Peter

Funny you should mention that. I find myself gripping tank most of the time even on straight road. Somehow I dont feel stable and have to transfer weight on my hands unless I am anchored to the tank. I tried knee-to-knee drill and it indeed seems to alleviate the pressure on legs.

Wow man, 60 TDs in 9 months? Thats like 2 TDs per week? Holy smokes, you going into racing? You are living a dream! I think I get what your are saying. I was getting into more extreme lean angles towards end of that TD, and ended up dragging toe sliders, as well as curb feeler on the footpeg (this actually caused me to crash - no damage beyound scratched fairings). In fact I'm proud of myself of not cornering white-knuckled on the track despite going faster than ever before What I think may be going on is that I'm trying to support most of my weight on legs since I dont trust suspension - this is a standard bike, suspension is not adjustable, and I have had several close calls with rough pavement in curves so am trying to compensate for that by not sitting down on the seat. Could that be it? Peter

Thanks for the feedback! I still wonder what exactly 'too tight' means for legs... too much weight on legs? not enough on the seat? Here is a bunch more http://www.gron4.net/2013/060913/nov/kawblu/

Too far to the side, or towards the ground? It feels like most of my weight is on the inside leg. This is how I look now: https://plus.google.com/photos/100264784324343457396/albums/5887662525371378209?authkey=COr0p5n-qq2hNg Thanks! Peter

Thanks for all the advice! I am on Kawasaki Ninja 650r, no adjustable clipons or rearsets. Will keep trying Peter

Yes, I got Stomp grips. Its the inside leg that bears the brunt - I wonder if I'm putting too much weight on the inside? Too tense might be right as well. Prolly should include some adductor muscle exercise in my regimen :-| Thanks! Peter

I am a noob and still learning proper body position - have dragged my footpeg but not the knee. Lock my outside leg to the tank feels right, but my legs get tired real quick. I have been a gym rat for many years and have strong quad muscles, yet it still happens. Whats funny is that leg muscles more on the inside seem to get tired and quads get little workout. I believe I am doing something wrong - any advice what could it be? Peter

I did my first (dry) trackday about a month ago. My body position sucks - I dont hang off far enough and stay too high (http://www.gron4.net/2013/060913/nov/kawblu/) . Anyway I felt confident in corners, didnt slide out and was gunning it more and more towards the end. Until I scraped my peg hard in the very last lap. I ground off about 5mm off the curb feeler (yes, I know I should have taken them off). This resulted in some weight being transferred from the rear, and I lost traction. Somehow I managed to save it, but of course lost my line and went off the track, and down in the grass runoff - scratched fairings and that was it. Please dont try to scrape your footpegs. If your feet are in right position you'll hit toe sliders first (I know I did), and that should be your early warning. Getting hard parts down is just outright dangerous, especially on street.

I'm looking for leather boots that I can take to track, but also ride on street. Looking for decent protection, to be used in warmer weather (like >55F/15C), and, most importantly, these have to be wide. I tried rented race leather boots and had to go 2 sizes up - obviously not good for riding! Are there any riding boots available in wide? Thanks! Peter

Agreed, no rear brake on track. Period. I am not sure it was front wheel lockup... did not feel like heart pounding experience at all Still wondering what it was. This was my own Kawasaki Ninja 650r, not S1000. Peter

I was chatting with Will recently and he mentioned something that you might want to check on - he said that sometimes a rider's glove can be a bit too loose in the palm, making it hard to fully release the throttle while braking. Apparently it can feel to the rider as though he has released the throttle but the material in the palm of the glove (which is usually a high-grip material) keeps the throttle from going closed. I'm not sure if the happens because it creates a fold in the leather or just because it is loose, but when I read your post I thought it might be worth mentioning, something to watch for. I have had it happen to me and I didn't know why; after talking to Will I think a too-big glove was the actual cause. That sounds likely. I have small hands, long fingers and most gloves are too lose in palm area for me. Thanks for the tip!

I learned my lesson the first year after I started riding: slammed front brake at ~2mph and put the bike down. Luckily just some scratches on fairing and bent brake lever Never again. Coach told me locked up front feels wobbly and unstable, but it wasnt like that at all - the bike felt like still going straight, but lost the feel for road... like smoothly sliding forward on ice. Not sure how to better describe it... I was going into multiple little slides around corners as well, and it felt like front was giving out. Instead it must have been rear slipping a tiny bit and that reflected on the front... so I'm not sure anymore which wheel is losing traction

Peter, I'm not sure you have a braking problem (you did very well to catch the locked up tyre before crashing), but let me turn your questions around: What If the bike was in perfect balance - how would the bike reacting to a locked up the front tyre? Could you think of application of the front brake, that would lead to sub-optimal traction? What makes you think that you are not releasing the throttle completely while braking/downshifting, and what effect would it have on the bike? Cheers, Kai Hi Kai, Let me see.... If bike is in super-perfect balance and going perfectly straight I imagine it would keep going straight - highly unlikely in real life. Any steering input would upset the balance, and you have no steering to speak of with locked up front... This is what makes me think I did not actually lock up the front, it must have been something else. Squeezing front brake too fast, before weight is transferred forward, would result in early loss of traction. I probably did squeeze a bit too fast, but it was not abrupt. I have caught myself not releasing throttle fully when braking on street - this results in (and I notice it by) reduced front brake performance, longer stopping distance. I believe it could lead to front locking up early. Peter

I recently took my very first trackday/clinic - woohoo! Super stoked about it, especially considering it was raining cats & dogs all day, yet I was riding faster & more confident than ever before! Now, towards end of the day I realized I have a problem with braking. Sometimes I would approach the turn entry point a fast enough to require some hard braking, and once I managed to lock it up. It felt like bike was sliding, but was not unstable - ie it kept going forward with no noticeable wobble. I released front brake pressure a bit and it stabilized itself (obviously I was not using rear brake at all). Coach was riding behind me, and didnt notice anything wrong, and wasnt able to offer any explanations. I think my problem is not fully releasing the throttle while braking & downshifting. This sometimes happens to me whenever I start to push the envelope a bit - not exactly fear but just insufficient attention towards full throttle rolloff. Obviously I need to work on my brake/down technique. I am trying to understand what happened... could it be that my front tire was not locked, but rear was spinning & loose due to the throttle not being completely off? I was in 3rd gear for pretty much all turns, Kawi Ninja 650 (all stock). Thanks! Peter

I did some more reading on the subject. Being a geek I am this is becoming quite interesting - I have been riding bicycles for 30 years, and never gave any thought to steering, just did it. The best explanation I have found so far is that at higher speeds gyroscopic forces are just way to strong for you to muscle the bike into a lean and steer at the same time. Countersteering provides forceful input that makes the bike lean, and then you complete the turn using 'normal' steering. This is why I thought I can get away with muscling the bike into a lean - that may work at slower speeds but will not do when you go faster. This also explains why it would be easier to flip the bike with lighter wheels - gyro forces are considerably less then. OK, time for some practice runs now! Peter

OK, it getting clearer now! Thanks! One thing I still do not fully understand is what provides the actual cornering force? Is it the lean, or position of the front wheel? If its the lean, why cant just we forcefully flip the bike into a lean - it seems like countersteering just provides the forces for initial lean???

OK, I guess I have a LOT to learn. Quite a humbling experience I confess I still do not fully understand the counter-steering theory, and I dont how bike actually does it when I lean it into a corner. I just know it does!

Watched TOTW2 yesterday, couldnt help it but try the quick flick today on local hairpins. What I did was try to quickly lean the bike using knee pressure on the tank - does that sound right? Lean was totally effortless, it went down like a dream and I found that I just HAVE to apply the throttle in order to make it through the turn - again, I wonder if I was late with throttle? or was I doing it wrong? In a nutshell, is QT something like: 1. Lean the bike over fast without your weight on the handlebars 2. Provide steering input at the same time (honestly, I dont how I steer. I just know I lean over and bike does it. I never conciously apply steering input to the handlebars) 3. Give it throttle 4. Take and exit the corner while steadily rolling on the throttle (this actually provided me some major scare/adrenaline rush for me in 180 degree turn) On a plus side I made it though the hairpins faster than ever before, and got a major rush of adrenaline out of few consecutive quick flicks Also I figured its about time I get tank grips. Thanks for any advice! Peter