utahphunk
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Posts posted by utahphunk
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Hey, I noticed that Plexus (a great bike cleaner) has skyrocketed in price to something like $21 per can. Anybody know of a more reasonable alternative that works just as well, on paint, windshields and helmet shields?
I've switched to just water to clean my helmet shield and helmet. Water and a clean microfiber cloth or sunglasses/goggle bag. You just need to keep the microfiber moving once you're done, in order to keep spots from forming.
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I find the majority of this post completely counter-intuitive.
Without the feedback from the front under braking to judge available grip
What feedback are you getting from the front tire while trail-braking, specifically?
... one must leave a bit more margin for error riding slow in-fast out since the corner speed will be significantly higher.
Say you need your speed at the apex to be 40mph (just to pick a number.) If you're trail-braking, you tip into the corner at 60mph, and trail-brake down to 40mph. Your average pre-apex speed for that corner is higher than 40mph.
If you aren't trail-braking, you brake from 60mph down to 40mph before the corner, tip into the corner at 40mph, then set maintenance throttle to keep you right at 40mph (and to stabilize the suspension, etc, etc.) until you hit the apex. Your average pre-apex speed for that corner is 40mph.
So, slow-in fast-out (aka, no trail-braking) gives you a slower average corner speed than trail-braking, not faster. It sounds like you're not comparing apples to apples, i.e. hitting the apex at 40mph in both situations.
I cannot be sloppy the way I can when braking later.
By definition, trail-braking leaves less margin for error, not more. Where do you get this extra margin if you've put yourself in a situation where you need to balance the front tires turning and braking demands at the same time?
Going in slower also means less leeway for altering speed mid-corner as one is using the throttle instead of the brakes.
How so? The brakes can regressively slow the bike (trail-braking) and tighten the turn radius. Conversely, the throttle can speed/stand the bike up and widen the radius. In terms of margin for error - if you go in too fast, you're going to have an SR-ful mess on your hands. If you go in too slow, you can roll the throttle on sooner or more aggressively with zero drama.
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I'm going to address a bunch of things one by one, not to be combative, just because I'm procrastinating with my work.
utahphunk - I think you've misread my post or misunderstood what I'm trying to say...
Although we do both agree about not spending attention where it's not needed!
The point I was making is that you can save attention by spending it mostly on the one place that really matters - front tyre traction.
That last sentence is what I disagree with unless you mean "spend your 'braking' attention on the front tire traction instead of brake lever pressure and fork travel." If you actually mean that a rider should have a large percentage of their total attention on their front tire traction, then I completely disagree. Two of your paragraphs begin in a way that makes it seem like you think a rider should be using a lot of their total attention on front tire traction while braking:
By turning all your focus onto the front tyre,I think if you work on tuning into the front tyre and getting good at "listening" to it,Those also make it sound like you think there's a high probability of sliding the front tire while braking. That's why I said heavy braking will stoppie a bike, not lock up the front tire. In summary, if correctly executed heavy braking won't cause the front tire to lose traction, then I see no reason for all the "turning all our focus" and "tuning into it" and "listening to it."
I thought CSS did not teach trail braking? Or are you talking about another school? Come to think of it I can't recall any school/coaching that has claimed to teach trail braking...? But I would say it's one of those things that can't actually be "taught", there are just techniques and a method to follow - the rest depends upon the student and how well they can execute the technique,I don't know if the higher CSS levels or CODErace courses teach trail-braking, but I would be shocked if CODErace doesn't. I wasn't talking about any school in particular, but tons of high-performance riding schools teach trail-braking. I don't understand why you think trail-braking "can't be taught." It's a well understood technique that's well suited to all sportbikes. If trail-braking is "just techniques and a method to follow" then isn't that exactly what riding schools teach us? What do you think is special about trail-braking that makes it unteachable?
OK, back to work for me!
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You can get set up early for the corner and still brake hard (like, 150mph down to 50mph) by leveraging your foot against the outside peg, your knee against the tank (standard locked-on body position so far) and the middle of your adductor/quad leveraged into the corner of the tank on that side. By flexing your foot/leg into those three contact points during braking, most of the braking forces are transmitted through your lower body and into the bike, as opposed to your arms.
You only need 2 fingers to pull in the clutch lever enough to unload the transmission enough to drop gears while braking for a corner. This leaves your two outboard fingers on the bar for more control. (It even works if your two outboard fingers get pinched, which they probably will.)
You can steer with the throttle (instead of adding a 2nd steering input) to widen up your line after the apex.
MotoGP riders aren't human and they don't ride bikes made for humans. Don't worry about what they do, just enjoy the show.
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So please tell me, why do the times suffer so little? Or, put another way, why do they gain so little speed when everything is good vs. everything is off?
Because they're the best in the world at riding motorcycles as fast as possible.
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Respectfully, I think it's simpler than mugget describes and I think his suggestions spend attention (can we call these Code bucks?) where it's not warranted.
To brake hard with the bike upright, apply progressive pressure to the front brakes in order to progressively load the front tire. This makes the part of the tire touching the ground squish under the weight and spread out. This increases the size of its contact patch. The bigger the contact patch, the more friction/traction it can provide. This means it can be used to brake harder, but only after it's loaded.
"Grabbing" the brakes too quickly applies is simply asking too much of the tire for the small contact patch it has before it's loaded, so it slides.
Here's the main reason I disagree with mugget's suggestions: While the bike is upright, a proper progressive application of front brake (squeezing it rather than grabbing it) will stoppie the bike before it would lock up the front tire. (You can see this in action by watching high end racers braking hard - their rear tires are barely skipping across the surface of the track.)
Note that poor suspension setup can cause problems even when braking appropriately. The forks could bottom out, which eliminates your suspension's ability to keep your tire on the pavement, which could cause it to lock up even if you've followed the progressive pressure rule. Forks in poor condition could also cause the front end to dive under braking, which would certainly be a spooky feeling even if it did not cause a crash. How's your fork setup? Fork oil age? Fork sag?
If we're talking about braking into a corner while turning, aka "trail braking," then you really need to get yourself to a school to learn that effectively. BASE jumping and trail-braking are the two things that I always suggest people learn in person from a professional, rather than on an internet forum.
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What's the benefit of the "2 finger clutch method" ?? I totally get the Clutch vs Clutchless arguments (I'm on the clutchless side of that one FYI) and I understand 2 finger braking so you have two fingers and a thumb to modulate the throttle with, but why 2 finger clutching ??
2-finger clutching on downshifts was explained to me at a local instructional riding course like this: You only need 2 fingers to get the clutch lever in just enough to unload the transmission enough to safely and smoothly downshift. That leaves more fingers for holding on to the bars and less total movement from your hand to get down to the correct gear while you're approaching a corner. (This came up at the end of the day, so I haven't practiced it yet.) I suspect that by the time your lever is in close enough to pinch your other fingers, your transmission is unloaded enough to downshift so the pinching is not really a problem. That's just speculation, though.
Note that 2-finger clutching would probably not work for holding in the clutch at a red light and easing it out in 1st gear when that light turns green, but that's OK - that's not what it's for.
Overall, I fail to see how clutchless downshifting is really going to be worth it for most riders, especially those without a slipper clutch. If you get it wrong, it's hard on the transmission and upsets the bike as you're setting up for the corner. If you get it right, you've saved yourself the very minimal time and attention it takes to pull a lever in and let it out quickly. No real bang for the buck there, unless your bike's slipper and transmission really don't care either way. *shrug*
Plus, using a clutch to downshift gives you a little emergency buffer if you screw up the throttle blip. (And no, I'm not talking about intentionally and regularly hiding a lazy blip by letting the throttle back out slowly - that's just a crutch.)
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Just checking with the floor
How do we use our brake more efficiently in the corners?
Always notice in SBK or MotoGP, the bikes that enter into the corners, most of their front fork is almost top out. But when i try in on the track, as long as hard braking is involve, it always spook me due to the front end of the fork dipping to much.
Is there a drill to practice this?
Look forward for advice.
Cheers,
You're using the phrase "top out" which means "using zero percent of its travel" such as when the bike is not braking at all, or even just sitting there with no rider on it.
I'm guessing you really mean "their front fork is fully compressed" which means it's using almost all of its travel. That is what happens when a motorcycle is braking hard.
What is spooking you about the front end dipping so much under hard braking? If it's dipping violently, then it sounds like you are apply the front brake too quickly ("grabbing" the front brake instead of progressively squeeeezing it.)
What are you afraid of during hard braking like this?
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I have now ridden both the Z650 and the Ascot quite bit in cool conditions and roads have also often been dirty, yet I haven't experienced a single slide. So it seems pretty certain that I have inflicted my bikes with unwanted inputs, although I'm still not quite sure what. Tensing up seems the most plausible explanation.
Thanks to all who gave their inputs
That's great that you've seen some improvement. Congrats.
I'd also recommend a GoPro focused on your controls in the lower half of the frame and the road in the upper half of the frame. That would give you better data than "here is what I think I'm doing." It would let you compare what something feels like to what it looks like, as well as producing something you could post here for video feedback.
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Thanks to everyone for the discussion in this thread.
After thinking about everything more, I decided to focus on setting my corner speed a little earlier to avoid charging corners and putting myself into this position.
I also did more research and determined that my brake chatter problem was bad enough to address. So, I wet sanded the rotors and replaced the (very likely contaminated) brake pads and the chatter was gone.
So, less rushing while setting up for the corners and less wasted attention on brake chatter, and I rode much safer, looser and faster.
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How often would you say you trail brake into a corner? I didn't really understand trail braking until I just watched the TWOT2 again, it's so true that every time you watch it you learn something new or it clarifies something as well. I always thought trail braking was when you used the rear brake and slid the rear tire into the turn or is that just another form of trail braking? After watching the video I realized it's using the front brake and easing off into the turn once you have reached your turn entry speed.
I know trail braking when the track is wet is generally not ideal but I am sure with practice it could be done precision. Or would you avoid trail braking at all when the track is wet? If I am not mistaken in the video it says trail braking into the turn is the preferred method of braking.
On the track? Every corner that requires heavy braking (once my tires are up to temp.) In the canyons, pretty much only when I decide I've left braking too late and I need a little more time to set the corner speed I want. Or I'll do it intentionally just to practice the easing off. You don't want to release the front brakes abruptly and upset the suspension when you're fully leaned over, right?
Using the rear brake to "back it in" is what you're describing. It's a pretty advanced technique and it's tough on the rear tire. I also think it's starting to fall out of favor, but I could be wrong on that.
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Assuming you're correct in that you don't have any serious body positioning problems, then it sounds like the answer is, "Go faster."
For any given body position (be it good or bad), more speed = more lean angle.
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As I recall there is a VERY BIG difference between the "street" Power Pure and the track version sold by track vendors. The round profile is a more street oriented tire that is a lot less sticky on track. It's weird that they call both versions the PowerPure, quite confusing.
Yeah, they should at least call the track version of it the Power Purer or something to make things less confusing.
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We've had a few discussions here on the forum about what you do to physically prepare for a trackday or racing - what sort of exercises and fitness routine, and even what to eat that day - but what do you do AFTER a day of riding or racing?
Do you have a routine for the evening after a hard day of riding, or the next day? Do you eat or drink anything in particular (I suspect a cold beer might be a popular choice!
), or take any sort of recovery vitamins or electrolytes? Is there anything you do to prevent sore muscles?If it was a hot ride (Utah rider here), then I try to get fluids and electrolytes (Gatorade or a Nuun tablet) in me ASAP. Failing to be diligent about that leaves me feeling pretty wiped out for a while. Priority #2 is some stretching. If I rode so much that my legs/hips feel wobbly or shot, I'll make sure to get some good quality carbs (a nice beer counts as part of this, of course) and protein. I usually end up eating that way soon after any duration motorcycle ride anyways - I only carve canyons and I never stop for lunch, etc. while I'm out riding.
I'm in my mid-30s, so I need to stretch after a few hours of serious riding, otherwise I'll tighten up and have stiff muscles the next day.
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Sorry, pretty sure I must have confused them with the Pilot Power 2cts, since you said 2ct. Of course, the Power Pures are a 2-compund technology (2ct) tire too, but 2ct is not part of their "name". Honestly, Michelin's system for naming their tires is a tad confusing.....
Understandable. I did say I have a Pilot Power rear (which is actually called their "Pilot Power 2CT".) But still, even that model is just one step below the Power Pure.
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A Power Pure 2ct is a sport touring tire. If you are running the rear Power Pure to the edges with good body position, I would suggest that you may well be over-riding your front tire. You may even feel it more while at intermediate lean angles where you are still on the harder compound segment of the tire. Several guys I know who ran the 2cts gained a lot of confidence when they got rid of them and went to a more sport-oriented tire with single compound construction. Those were riders doing mid-intermediate group times, and getting their knees down (albeit not with very good body position as I recall).
I am not discounting the possibility of technique playing into this - I have personally experienced the front tire doing weird stuff when I was too stiff on the bars - but it really sounds like you might also be due for a tire upgrade.
Just my 2 cents - I am definitely not an expert!
The Michelin site shows the Power Pure as second in performance only to their Power One mostly-track tire. I'm not contesting anything else you're saying, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.
Thanks for all the replies everyone. Please keep them coming!
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The TOTW2 book talks about CSS students reporting spooky sliding behavior and a pace that were way below track records. Keith eventually discovered it was the cause of inconsistent throttle inputs (on-off-on again, etc). A tight grip on the bars (and all the tiny unintended steering inputs that brings with it) may have also been a factor, but I'm not sure about this second part.
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When you say "pushing", do you mean sliding? As in you felt like the front tire was losing grip (sliding) and causing you to run wide?
Yes, I do mean sliding (and I've edited my OP.) But I was already running wide when i think my front tire started sliding.
I started to run wide because my higher entry speed required more lean angle than I "believed" I could hold. Once I started running out of track width to get it turned, I had to tighten up my turn and increase lean angle before I ran off. It was that last lean angle increase where I thought I felt some sliding from the front tire. Specifically, it was much later than turn-in. (And I was still zero throttle and no brakes during these adventures.)
I think looking at chicken strips as a gauge of how much grip you have is a bad idea and will probably end in tears! In all my time riding/racing bikes, I have never worn a front tyre all the way to the edge. I just don't think the profile allows it.
I'm not caught up in the "chicken-strips = wimpy rider" game at all, I promise. I'm almost certain the profile of a performance front tire does allow it, but you certainly have more experience at speed than I do. If you've never worn a front tire edge-to-edge, have you ever pushed the front enough to make it slide?
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Full title: Am I Pushing My Front Power Pure On The Track If It's Not Word Edge-to-Edge?
I've taken the CSS level 1 course a few years ago, and I did my first regular track day 2 weeks ago. I had a few moments where I felt like I was in too fast and was pushing/sliding the front tire in a few corners as I ran way wide, off the brakes, but not yet into maintenance throttle. My front tire chicken strips were down to a consistent 1/3 of an inch at that point, just to give an idea of how much lean angle I was normally holding.
My bike is a 2004 CBR1000RR with a good, fresh suspension setup, with a Power Pure 2ct on the front and a Pilot Power on the rear (worn all the way to the edge.) Cold pressure was at a Michelin tire rep recommended 32 cold and the tires were warmed up when I had these moments. I don't have enough pace to get my knee down, but it's close (and I'm not crossed up trying to make that happen.) These were ideal conditions for maximum traction, meaning there was nothing about my tires, the bike or the track that would cause tires to slide.
My question is this: Is it even possible that I was actually pushing/sliding the front in those situations if my front tire wasn't even worn all the way to the edge? Is that even possible? Or was I actually just mis-interpreting some feedback from the bike? I'm not doing anything ill-timed or SR-based in the corner, other than "deciding" I'm in too fast and I need to run wide. I did not get a chance to have a more experienced rider follow me to tell me what they saw, and the track photographer didn't get any shots of me, either.
Thanks!
What Do You Wish You Had Known Sooner?
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
Never use Windex on helmet shields, ever. It makes the material brittle and hence, more likely to shatter. Helmet manufacturers will back this up, it's not just some urban myth.
(I used to do the same thing.)