53Driver

Dang! I've heard of that happening, but have never seen it! Your buddy was in the real catch-22. Not knowing what that clown was thinking, what to do? Swerve outside? Swerve inside? Slow/stop? All while using "wide vision" and NOT fixate on this threat. Good on him. I'm glad it all worked out. Did the guy keep going or did y'all stop for a 'chat'? If so, did he say what he was fixated upon?

The Paddock area at Barber, right behind the pits/racing control and the Start Finish line is open for RVs during the CSS class! No water or sewer, but electrical is available. I'll be in the RV for the week!

Wes, ...roger. Copy all. I lost your OP meaning while reading the thread. "...everyone finds themselves with a car suddenly crossing the center line at us or some stuff in the road that runs you wide toward the ditch. In that case we can get target fixated and don't use the margin and maneuverability we have available to avoid the "target." "1. instantly recognize/acknowledge in that moment that what's happening isn't what I expected; and 2) have a response that has been practiced enough to be in my...brain." "...a way to train out that target fixation instinctual reaction.... I have to believe that target fixation puts a very large number of motorcyclists in the hurt locker. " I agree with all of your points. This jives well with what I read in either TOTW2 or the SSofR where Keith wrote (paraphrased) that it's tough to eliminate the 6000+ year old instinct to keep eyes on what is threatening you. In my other hobbies, martial arts & shooting, we must watch our opponent. My personal emergency procedure - which I do NOT teach students - is "Sh*t/SWERVE." As soon as my brain registers "oh golly gee, this is not going per my expectations" i.e. "Sh*t!", my trained reaction is "Swerve." I'm hoping in the instant of need, thinking Swerve will eliminate eyes fixating and hopefully have them looking to escape paths. So to the audience, anyone else have a technique? Cheers, Steve

JayBird - Looking at your interests - motorcycling, aviation, Taekwondo - I would venture to say your path to self-improvement did not start 'yesterday.' All those activities are about continuous improvement. And at least 2 out of 3 will get you killed if you think you know it all. The OODA loop - Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. This milspec strategy for operational units during military campaigns I don't think translates well into what you have described above as you and the other rider doing a thorough debrief, a la aviation flight. A no holds barred, honest, but not damning (aye Cobie!) debrief is the first step to a reality. And? It's the first step to the MSF coaching mantra I'd like you to think about instead of OODA. Please think OACR - Observe, Analyze, Coach, Reinforce. In your debrief with your fellow rider, your honest Observations and Analyzations were most probably there and then hopefully you got into some self-Coaching (pick ONE thing to try differently next time) and then hopefully after the next run, some Reinforcement of new behaviors. However, as Cobie rightly alludes to, what often happens with riders, especially when with other riders, is we go from Observe & Analyze to emote about what happened and beat ourselves to a pulp - and that's the end of it until some whiskey induced reflections might lead to a self-coaching moment hours or days later. As experienced riders, we KNOW when we done messed something up. And we can probably analyze it to a pretty good degree of accuracy. But getting good coaching and then reinforcement (yay or nay) with follow-on coaching is why we pay Cobie et al the big bucks. Cheers!

Wes, Steve here - I noticed that no MSF (non-CSS) coaches answered up here. You wrote also that this might be a topic for MSF so I'm going to offer my $0.02 I realize I'm resurrecting a thread, and I'm admittedly new to the sportbike game, 2 months and 2500 miles on a K1200S. What got me there is that I'm signed up for CSS in May so I have been reading these forums in earnest. However, I have been an MSF coach for over 13 years with over half a million miles on several bikes. Whenever I am approaching a new corner, at speed or otherwise, I still tell myself "Slow, Look, Press, Roll." The newer conceptual verbiage is "Search, Setup, Smooth." At speed I tend to think it faster then our students on the range do. Or at least I'm hoping I do. One thing I ensure to tell the students is something you've all heard before, and I'm pretty sure I read it in this thread and that is "look where you want the bike to go." Okay, we all got that, but the timing is the important part. So what I tell the students is to "look where you want to go, and THEN make the bike go there." I find that the natural delay between the look and the steering input (at the novice level) sets them up for success down the road. The caveat here is that "the bike does NOT necessarily go where you look." It doesn't have to. Look ahead before arriving at your turn point. Once the rider is mentally assured about actually getting to the turn point, then he is to look to the apex, pause to arrive at the TP and begin the steering input. But the key (as HotFoot mentioned) is looking to the apex sooner to alleviate the speed sensation, and using 'wide-angle' viewing to monitor the turn point arrival then perform steering. Get the nose pointed in the correct direction and finish the smooth roll on. I hope this helps. Cheers! Edit: I am also a pilot, USMC helos for 21 years. I concur with your analogies to "Emergency Procedures", muscle memory, and effective SR avoidance through practice and simulation.

Following this thread - looking for answers as well. From 2 perspectives: First, not necessarily from a 'racing' perspective, but in general, what can be done to assist all the northern riders who haven't ridden in 3-6 months, who then change the oil in their bikes in February and then trailer them to Daytona in March and get on them for the first time with 30,000 of their closest friends? Second: when I coached in Philly, as soon as the weather broke, I would ride to the MSF range and work on my short game and riding demos, not expecting anything epic, knowing it was going to be a "work in progress." 4 sessions & about 8 riding hours later, I was ready to coach again. However, this racing thing is new to me, but since I'm probably not going to get to the track that often, regardless of weather, there is still going to be rust that needs busting in between track days. Cheers, Steve

That made my morning! Because I've read some your posts in other threads - I am doubting the "old & slow" stuff however...

Thank you! I've put over 2500 miles on her in 2 months. What a joy!

Thank you, sir! (I think - lol) The bottom line was that there seemed to be no disadvantage to weighting the outside peg and there was some math to imply that from a physics perspective, it does add stability. Cheers, Steve

I love it when topics get resurrected, and especially when I have just discovered the technique, literally yesterday...it forces me to relate my newfound exuberance not only to the "what" but also the "why." I am not a proud author and I am seriously interested in all responders. Why? Because if what I know to be true as outlined below proves false - I need to know ASAP. First, kudos to the CSS Coaches who asked the poignant question and provided the illustrative example: i.e. Cobie's 'stirring the pot' getting the topic back on track, "Does it matter which peg is weighted?" and then HotFoot's barbell example. Nice tag team. The OP's question was "Why weight the outside peg vice the inside?" and then we got into locking the body, Newton's Laws and "vector mathematics." We do "things" on the bike - perform techniques - to aid our riding. So I reckon the better question might be what are the advantages to weighting the outside peg over the inside peg? 1. Many of you have written it helps you 'lock-on' to the bike with less fatigue than other techniques. 2. Others have written that it helps focus major muscle groups in the steering process - as per TOTW2, Keith mentions it is like 'power steering' yielding less fatigue. Also Keith tells us in TOTW2 that "pushing under the bike" is not a good technique for asphalt based motorcycles. 3. Others have advocated that it only serves to 'pickup the bike' upon the exit. 4. My experience from a one-day experimentation over 5 hours and 300 miles is that in the great "ballroom dance" that is elegance & finesse motorcycle riding, I am in a much better position to lead the bike around the dance floor when my "touch points" on my girl are correct AND effective. Those are 3 GREAT reasons (4 if you count mine) to weight the outside peg! Are there ANY disadvantages? I haven't read about one or personally found one yet. The comment about riders who are "inseam challenged" and lift their foot off the outside peg yet still win races doesn't mean this is a bad or overrated technique at all - just that it doesn't have to be used to win races. Of course, being the dedicated riders we are, always wanting to learn more about riding, the why is always what matters - because that is how we remember to do things. It's great to discuss the Center of Mass (CM) and Center of Gravity (CG), but what seems to be missing from most of the posters' train of thought is the "moment of torque" surrounding the application point relative to the CM on the bike - hence HotFoot's outstandingly simple barbell example. What is at play here is the delta between gravity operating on the Center of Mass, and the torque - or 'moment arm' - acting on the bike around the bike's CM due to pressure applied anywhere other than the CM. To calculate this moment arm, or torque, I present the formula t=rFsin(α) where r is the radius distance from the CM, F is the actual Force and α is the angle of r. So, if Keith weighs 180 pounds (full gear & the math is easier), and he is applying only 2/3 of his weight - I think I'm being conservative here - to the outside peg in a 45 degree angle turn, and the peg is 10" from bike centerline, that gives us t=10*120*.707 = 848.5 in-lbs (70 ft-lbs) of torque on that motorcycle frame. With 250cc bikes going around 350-400lbs wet, that torque is almost 20% of the weight (remember most of the rider doesn't count because he's causing the moment.) That is not insignificant. There's definitely SOMETHING happening there. When a rider is "hanging off" - are they actually hanging their weight? If so, on what part of the bike? One poster wrote that the pros shift their weight 20 times in a turn - while 'hanging off.' That's a lot of shifting. In TOTW2, Keith was using the outside peg as his "pivot point" - where his weight was focused. I'll bet money he was 'hanging off' as well, but keeping his weight pushed to his outside foot - no small physical task. And that he was on a 250cc bike tells me there wasn't a lot of relative bike mass for him to overcome - yes there were centripetal and centrifugal forces from the wheels, but when he applied his weight to the outside peg, it definitely mattered to the bike. The other significant point made in TOTW2 is that when pressing on that outside (or inside peg) the bike "feels" your body mass MUCH nearer its own CM and that makes the bike happy and stable, regardless of the angle. Adventure guys and Trials guys stand on their pegs - why? It lowers the perceived CM for the bike and is more stable. When we 'flick' our bikes over, we WANT instant instability, followed by complete stability while in the turn...make one good steering input, hold it there with your "criss-cross-torso-pressure-system," and you get to enjoy the turn. So, in summary... Yes the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, and it actually makes mathematical sense, so yes, Coach Cobie, it DOES matter. Thanks for reading. I'm looking forward to May at Baker Motorsports. Cheers, Steve

I was going to bring my toy hauler and "camp" but the nearest site is 45 minutes away - not what I need when I need to be at the track by 0630.....

Who all is going and where are you staying? I know I'm heading there, Red_Baron is going to be there, as well as El Colibri. Let us know!

Looks like we're all going to be at Barber! I tried signing up for the 2 Day, but someone took the last slot....lol. So I am doing a Single and then the Half Camp, trying to get at least Level 1 & 2 completed. Really looking forward to this!!!

Good day all. Steve Kelly here. 57 years young, looking forward to another 20+ years on two wheels. Been an MSF Rider Coach for over 10 years coaching the BRC, BRC2, & ARC. Retired USMC Helicopter pilot and sound engineer for local & regional bands. Been riding cruisers ('73 Ironhead Sporty, '95 FLSTN, '98 Valk) and baggers ('81 GL1100 Standard, 2014 GL1800BD - F6B) for 20+ years, got 126,000 miles on my 2014 F6B. I have lots of fun the Georgia/Tennessee/North Carolina back roads! Being retired doesn't suck.... Never owned a sportbike, but I always wanted to learn. Coaching the Advanced Rider Course on the F6B was leading to too many footpeg replacements - wrong tool for the job - and the '95 Harley was no better. As luck would have it, a 2008 BMW K1200S came my way on 30 Dec and after 2 months and 2500 miles on her, I decided that I needed to do more than just read TOTW2 and watch the video. So...I just signed up for the Barbers School in May - really looking forward to being on the other side of the coaching for a change. Looking forward to learning new stuff on these "go-faster" bikes. Something for cornering that is just a bit more than "Slow, Look, Press, Role".... Attached is a pic of "Lena" & I in Camden, Alabama Cheers, Steve