Hotfoot

Hey, this picture looks much better, hear head, neck and shoulders look more turned into the (imaginary) corner and more relaxed, your knee is more open to the right so your elbow looks less crowded, and the angle of your wrist looks more comfortable as well. Does it feel better? "Rotating around the tank" (not a desirable situation) is when you are sitting TOO close to the gas tank, so that when you try to shift your hips to the side to hang off, your upper thigh bumps into the tank and tends to force your hips to turn the WRONG way, so that instead of opening your hips into the corner, you end up twisting them away from the direction of the turn, which tends to pull your outside knee away from tank and mess up your lock-on. When you see riders with their butt hanging WAY off but their upper body crossed back over the tank and their head ending up in the middle or even the wrong side (and/or holding themselves up with a stiff inside arm) that is often the cause. The easiest way to understand it is to try it - scoot ALL the way forward so you are up against the tank. Then try scooting your hips to the side and see how the tank restricts your movement or forces you to twist the wrong way. Then try moving back a bit in the seat (typically about a fist size space between tank and crotch is a good starting point, might need to go back more if your legs are long) and try it again and see how much easier it is to move your hips over, and to rotate your hips the INTO the turn instead of the opposite. Let me know if that makes sense.

The additional photos do help. To me, your right shoulder looks like it is pushed farther forward on the rights than your left shoulder on the left turns, which goes back to possibly having your butt over too far on the rights, and not being able to rotate your body (shoulders and hips) towards the turn. The hips want to counter rotate, loosens the grip of the outside knee, creates a feeling like you are falling off to the inside, pushes the right shoulder forward and creates tension and an awkward position on the right side. Are you clear about what I mean when I say "rotate your hips/shoulders into the turn"? If not, let me know and I have some better ways to explain that. Another thing I see is that your wrist looks a little awkward on your throttle hand. For some, changing hand position on the throttle to more of a "screwdriver" grip can make it easier to turn the throttle in right hand turns. Instead of having your wrist straight and having to make a motion where you move your hand up and down at the wrist, you can hold the throttle more like you'd hold a screwdriver, allowing you to rotate at the wrist instead of flexing it, does that make sense? It changes the angle of your forearm and can give you more freedom of movement and allow you to drop your elbow more easily. Something worth trying, to see if it helps.

It's a little hard to tell just seeing it from the back side so take this with a grain of salt, but it looks to me like you are hanging your butt/hips off just a little bit too far on the right versus the left. On the left side you look comfortable and secure, and you are rotating your hips a bit to the left (into the turn) which sets you up nicely to get your upper body and head low and off to the left. Comparatively, on the right side, it looks to me like you scoot your butt over farther, and can't rotate your hips as much into the corner, which seems to compromise the lock in of your outside knee and make it more awkward to get your upper body down and to the right. Some things to check: 1) Are you too close to the tank to be able to rotate your hips towards the inside of the corner? Try scooting back just a little and see if it makes it easier. 2) Can you lock in your outside (left) knee as solidly on right turns as you can your outside (right) knee of left hand turns? If not, try not moving your hips quite so far to the rights on your right turns, rotate your hips a little more to the inside (right hip more toward the rear of the bike), and see if that pushes your left knee more solidly into a lock position on the tank. 3) Have you attended a school and done the "hip flick" exercise from Level 3? Making a smooth, consistent movement of the hips without bouncing on the pegs or adding any bar input is a benefit of that drill. I know you said you are not holding onto the bars... but that would be one of the most common reasons for the bike feeling like it "wants to abruptly tip over", either during the transition or once hanging off - a really small amount of input can make a really big difference. One obvious thing that is different on rights versus lefts is that you have the throttle control in your right hand. Any chance that when you roll on the throttle you are putting some forward (steering) pressure on that right bar, causing the bike to lean over more (or faster) than you expect?

What's the best modification or accessory you have done or added to your bike to make it more comfortable for you to ride, or put you in better control? For me, adding Stompgrip on the tank made a huge difference (on every bike I've had) on being stable on the bike, and adjusting the clutch and brake lever and the shift lever have made me more accurate with the controls. What have you done to your bike that has made it more comfortable, easier to ride, or put you more in control?

Congrats on your great wins and results, sounds like a lot of fun. Were you at VIR this week?

The school will have pretty much everything you need available - sunscreen, earplugs, water, snacks, etc. However, at Barber some things you could end up wanting to have: a folding chair, for break times - there is seating in the classroom, but you might want to have a chair you can put somewhere in the shade for times between class and riding. A comfortable, cool layer to wear under your leathers, either an undersuit made for the purpose or something like UnderArmour pants and shirt. An underlayer makes it a LOT easier to get in and out of leathers, plus being cooler and more comfortable underneath. A regular cotton tshirt can get bunched up or wet under leathers and won't keep you as cool as UnderArmour or an undersuit. The school does have undersuits for sale, in limited size/quantity, you may want to call ahead to see if they can reserve one for you in your size and find out the price. Drinks of your own if you have a preference - keeping hydrated is important, it can get hot at Barber. The school will have water and Skratch (an electrolyte drink) available. If you want to run a Go Pro, mention it as you register in the morning to find out if it will be allowed and to leave time to arrange for mounting the camera. As far as money goes - there are plenty of things to buy, T shirts, caps, track decals, not to mention bike parts and Stomp grip, so how much to bring is up to you. Credit card is fine for purchases and you will need a credit card for your equipment deposit anyway, so you may just want to bring that instead of a bunch of cash. Also Barber museum is nearby, and a giant Bass Pro shop, so there are lots of places you can spend money if you're so inclined. Consider making time the day before or after your school to visit the Barber Museum, it is AMAZING.

I've only seen the Woodcraft ones in use, they seemed to work well for the purpose, and they were fairly thick. I haven't tried them myself but the person that was using them got them because he didn't like the sound or sensation of scraping standard pucks. I presume they wouldn't last as long as standard pucks if you dragged them a lot, but his were holding up fine. I have seen a few creative ideas - one person took a couple of stiff plastic zip ties and fed them through the Velcro under the knee puck so they stuck out like curb feelers, to try to touch those down. Not sure if he actually took that out on track or whether it worked, but I did think it was creative. :)

That helps a lot, yes.

Nice post, Lnewqban. Jaybird, what is it that you are trying to fix or figure out? We know from riding our no BS bike at the school that you can get a bike to drift to one side by hanging weight off to one side - as Lnewqban addresses quite well above. But we also know that it is slow and imprecise, and anyone who has ridden the no BS bike recognizes immediately that they are not in control of the motorcycle when their hands are on the fixed bars. Given a slow enough speed and enough time and space to accomplish it, you can get the bike to turn, but it is hardly effective enough to get one around a racetrack or avoid an obstacle. You can see a clear demonstration of this in the Twist II DVD, you can see the effects of weight shift, how the the bike reacts and how the bars react. I'm not quite clear whether you are trying to address hanging weight off to the inside, or talking about weighting one peg without moving the Center of Mass, the effects are different. More importantly, what challenge are you facing in your riding that has you asking about this? (Or is it all just an academic dicussion ? )

Some other tricks... rain sliders are thicker and touch down sooner, and there are also leather sliders that make a less startling noise when they scrape.

Huh? Did I say something about a communication lag...?

Just so we are clear, I'm talking about higher rpm while already leaned over, which is not the same thing as having some throttle on while steering the bike. The bike feels more stable in the turn at higher rpm because the lean angle is set and it doesn't want to change because of the increased gyroscopic effect. For me on the S1000rr it can feel more stable at a higher rpm (lower gear) in a slow tight turn like the last few turns at Streets of Willow or Turn 9 at ACS, less reactive to rider movement or rough throttle inputs because the lean angle doesn't change as easily, and the more immediate throttle response when picking up the gas helps me to get better throttle control. Feeling a desire or need to have some throttle on when ENTERING a turn tells you something about your entry speed, do you remember what?

I don't agree that stability is our enemy. Yes the added stability would make the bike harder to steer initially, but a CRF110 is never going to be difficult to get to turn. However, more stability leaned over could make that particular bike easier to manage in a very tight turn, less twitchy and not as reactive to the rider moving around or oversteering, etc., which seems to me to be a bigger consideration on a little dirt bike than getting it to turn in the first place.

So was the rear wheel spinning up more?

What do you mean by "hold more throttle under control"?

Higher RPM in a corner does make a difference in motorcycle handling. Take a look at this article: https://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2182 There is also the effect of greater engine braking approaching the turn, which may have allowed you to shorten your braking distance, or use less brake and get a more accurate entry speed.

This particular item, in my opinion, is a great example of something that is not a matter of who is right and wrong as much as what works for one rider versus another, depending on that riders bike and their physical build and flexibility. Different bikes have different rider handlebar heights and distance from the seat, different shaped tanks, different rearset heights and configurations, etc. and that all impacts how the rider can hang on, and hang off. Even if you just narrow it down to sportbikes, you can look at a Ducati gas tank versus a Yamaha gas tank and see that rider lock on will not be the same from one to the other. And of course, a 6'3" 180 lb rider would fit on a bike differently than a 5'1" 180 lb rider. You can go to any track day and see LOTS of riders hanging their butt WAYY off the seat, even riders who are riding at a slow pace in the beginner group. Very often you will ALSO see those riders propping themselves up with their inside arm, and/or crossing their head and upper body BACK over the tank to the other side, so they really aren't shifting any weight to the inside after all. (OK, gallery, what is wrong with propping yourself up with the inside arm?). Some riders are strong enough and flexible enough (and tall enough!) to find a position where they hang off more than half their butt, without causing any unwanted bar input, unstable lower body lock, or excess fatigue - but for MOST riders, half a butt cheek is a much better starting point to create a stable, functional and effective body position. At the school we have a great off track exercise where we put a rider on a bike and work with them one-on-one to find a body position that works for them, along with educating them along the way about what is important about body position - what is the point of hanging off, how to do it (if desired), and how to get a good, comfortable, solid position that works, and then practice it. Just like you say above - knowing not only what to do, but also understanding why.

The bowl is FUUUUNNNN, seems like the best place to get more speed, at least compared to the others you mentioned. It is scary as hell trying to go faster where you crest that hill, where it is blind and off- camber! Which direction were you riding the track, CCW?

The data loggers are absolutely incredible in what they do, and small and easy to mount. If you really are interested in one, contact the school office at 800-530-3350. Slicks are really expensive and tires are one of the biggest expenses involved in track riding. If the data logger helps you find the problem with your tire wear (or gives you the info you need to take to your suspension guy or tire guy), it will pay for itself very quickly. The additional riding info that you get that will improve your laptimes will just be a bonus! Edit - BTW if you have a friend that has one, too, you can download your data and compare, creating a "virtual race" type thing where you can overlay your laps and see the differences - where you or your friend is getting on the gas earlier, carrying more speed, braking later, etc., and you can use your combined positive points to improve each other's laptimes. Or just bench race. Anyway it is really great and I highly recommend it!

Since the conditions were a bit wet, and tires were cold, it could be that the bike DID highside but just not as violently as in the video. I'm thinking that if the tire slid out to the rear, but then regained traction (perhaps over an oily patch on the pavement), it could flip it back over to the right but without that violent upward launch, because neither front nor rear tire would have as much grip as what we see in the video on dry pavement. However, I think the scenario John describes above sounds very plausible - even if the wheel just was lifted up a bit by the spring as you went over it, that could take away the resistance on the bars and your countersteering pressure (to lift the bike up out of its lean) would suddenly be too much and cause to the bars to turn too much to the left, so that as the tire lands back on the pavement it would countersteer you into the ground on the right, as John says above. I have had a similar experience on a dirt bike, hitting a round rock mostly hidden under some loose sand - I was leaned a bit to the left and coming up out of a turn, the front wheel was lifted up by the rock and when it came down it slammed me over on the right side. Did you have any sensation of the rear wheel slipping, sliding out, or coming around on you, or any recollection of the bars twisting, or of losing "feel" from the front tire?

The bikes are already in service, the first school was in February. I don't think there was a need to reach out on the forum for volunteers this year.

Yeah, and where is my flying car? I'm sure we were supposed to have those by now.

Yes it sounds like there may be some misunderstanding of the purpose and application of the pick up drill, and some pieces that are missing. I'll PM you and we will get it sorted out.:)

What is your understanding of HOW to do the pickup? How it is different from simply countersteering out of a turn?

Exactly. So does Schuberth, and I think AGV too.