Hotfoot

Wow, Kevin! I don't know what to say, other than I'm really glad you're OK, and thanks so much for posting this! Andy's right, it is an amazing feeling to know that this made such a difference for you. Do you suppose this is how the coaches feel, every day?

Hi Hotfoot, Wow! Your example of the blind curve and oncoming cage is the most extreme version of a biker's nightmare. Truth is, there could be zero reaction time in that case. That image sure caught my attention! While I was waiting for an objective definition of 70%, and apparently there isn't one, your description is clear and concise from two different viewpoints: 1) traction and 2) reaction time. In order to continue to ride a motorcycle at all, I'll need to interpret your guidelines a little loosely: "While in a curve, I should be able to make a big steering correction to the inside of the turn and/or come to a full stop within my sight/reaction distance for: "a) a highly visible, stationary hazard, such as a stopped vehicle, or a fallen tree, -AND- " a less visible road hazard such as a patch of dirt, sand, water, oil, or drywall screws." The beauty of what you suggest is that it by implication takes into account myriad variables including my physical and mental condition, bike's condition, road surface, weather, tires, etc. In addition, at my current skill level, it can be distilled into one easy to recall mantra, "70%=tires solidly planted and no hanging off!" Thanks to everyone who contributed to the illumination of this issue for me. Thanks, Hotfoot, for your elegant solution which especially resonates for me. Sincerely, Andy Andy, I'm really glad that was helpful for you, it's a nice feeling to make a suggestion, and then learn that it was useful, so thank you for letting me know! Sorry if my example was a bit extreme. The good news is that with good basics and enough confidence to react without panic, it's possible to make some really incredible avoidance moves when you need them; I've been amazed by what my bike can do, as long as I work with it and not against it. As long as I'm riding within my comfort zone, I can stay calm and react quickly and correctly. Your interpretation sounds very sensible for street riding, and per Cobie's question, I bring a similar idea to the track - my version would be something like this: 1) on a new track, I will ride at a speed that will allow me to stay well in control even if the turn does something different than I thought it was going to - like tightening up or going off-camber 2) I will approach other riders at a speed that will allow me to make a correction if someone makes an erratic move (especially if I am riding in the "intermediate group" ) 3) I will ride smoothly and correctly when my tires are cold, and at a pace where I can handle a small slide if it occurs 4) whenever I am practicing something or trying to figure something out, I will ride at a pace that is very comfortable for me, so I have some attention left over for learning, and can try new things without triggering SRs This is a fun discussion, I'm glad you got it started! Hotfoot

I think Hotfoot would make an outstanding coach! I know a mature guy from South Alabama that might be good at that. He said he feels very comfortable on Dunlop tires and green is his favorite color! Yahoo! Thank you Cobie, reading your post made me very happy, and thank you FossilFuel for your stellar recommendation! FossilFuel, I think you'd look great in green leathers. You should definitely do a tryout, you'd be terrific. Here's a quick update on the tires - as I mentioned I rode recently on the Power Ones, and my laptimes were about 7 sec off, EEK! I was concerned enough about this that I scheduled another track day and AND brought a mechanic friend with me to help sort out the bike setup issues. I put a new set of the older model Power Race tires on, the model I had been running before. Well, yesterday was the track day. In the first session on the Power Races, I easily turned a fast lap time, and by the end of second session had set a new personal best time on that track. I didn't end up changing one single thing on the bike, other than the tires, despite having set aside the WHOLE DAY to work on it. I was extremely relieved that the only problem was with the tires - apparently I thought there would be more to it than that. Just goes to show you how different tire models can feel. I had a REALLY fun day at the track yesterday, what a RELIEF to have all my confidence back. FossilFuel, I hope you feel the same way when you get your bike back and some familiar tires on it.

Hi Cobie, Yes, I realize everyone perceives risk differently, but what does Keith mean when he says "70%"? I mean, when I say it hurts, it's not the same as when my girlfriend says something hurts. At hospitals, they have a scale indicating from 1 to 10 how much pain one is feeling. Does somebody have the equivalent for traction thresholds, a topic which is critical to a motorcyclist's health and happiness? If not, shouldn't we clarify this a little more precisely? Andy 70%--w/out reviewing the exact text, doesn't this refer to the rider? If 100% is everything you have, then roughly a third off of that. How many can actually ride a bike to it's complete limit (correct limit too). Even at the GP level, no everyone can ride the same bike to it's limit. Look at Nicky and just about everyone else than Casey on that Duc. CF It seems to me that 70% is a somewhat artificial number used to help someone understand that you need to have something in reserve for emergencies when riding on the street. If that "70%" number doesn't have meaning to you, maybe it would be clearer to just go back to the basic idea behind it - could you stop or make a BIG steering correction, calmly, in an emergency, at the pace you are riding? If I was riding hard enough to make my tires squirm in a blind turn, I can assure you that I would not be prepared to make a big steering correction to avoid a car that suddenly appears on the wrong side of the road. Nor would I be comfortable taking those squirming tires over a patch of sand or gravel that I didn't see in the road. Maybe you could try using that as your gauge - do you have enough skills/traction/attention/etc left over to deal with a surprise road hazard?

Hey there, Yeah, ever since trying to Power Ones I have been asking around if others like them, and of course I keep hearing that 'racers love them'. So, either I'm too damn slow to appreciate them, or else they are king's new clothes. OK, I'll tell you again - I LOVED the Barber Code school. The track is gorgeous, beautiful scenery, trees and lakes, and rolling hills, and the track itself is terrific. It has a great flow, and elevation changes, and it's nice and wide, and I got a real kick out of driving up and over those blind hills. Wheeee! In addition to that, I got so much out of the coaching , I couldn't believe it - in every single session, I had something to work on, focused on it and saw immediate improvements, then moved on to something else; I always get that at CSS (it's what keeps me coming back!) but this time, each small change yielded such dramatic results that it was almost like being at the school for the very first time - I found whole new ways of looking at things. By the end of the second day I felt like I was flying around that track. I really, really had a blast.

SAY WHAT?!?!?!??? To the Original Poster: the sole purpose of downshifting is to put you into the powerband as you begin your drive OFF the corner. Nothing else. If you're thinking of using it to modulate your speed, it will hinder your times, smoothness and may also be a safety issue. . Learning point for me, I guess. When I'm going in to a corner, I'm coming off the brake and don't have any power going to the rear. Did I explain it wrong, or am I incorrect? I start giving power to the tire when I'm in the corner. I'm only concerned about what gear I'm in for the release, not my RPM's. I keep going back to our "maintenance throttle" discussion so many months ago when I read Freedys question. When riding only on the street I got into the habit of pulling in the clutch and holding it in while braking, and coasting into turns. After taking CSS and starting to ride on the track, I broke that habit and I never enter a corner with the clutch pulled in. For one thing, there is no engine braking, so you are "freewheeling" into the corner, which gives a lot less feedback and makes you feel like you are going in too fast. Another issue is that it's a lot harder to steer the bike quickly and accurately when you are holding in the clutch. Lastly, if you enter the corner with the clutch in, where do you let it out? While you are leaned over? It seems like it would be very easy to make an error and I wouldn't want to lock up my back tire in the midst of a turn. When I approach a corner now, I either downshift without using the clutch at all, or I use a VERY fast clutch action, and pull it in as little as possible to accomplish the downshift, but I am FOR SURE done with it before my turn point. If I hold the clutch too long, the RPMs drop a lot and I have to either blip it a lot (and I am terrible at it) or let it out REALLY slow to avoid locking up the rear tire. Generally I do have the throttle all the way off at turn point, because it is easier to turn the bike - the front is loaded, so I get a quicker turn in. You can still get the bike turned without shutting the throttle completely off, but I think the ideal is to be coming out of the brakes right as you turn in, and you wouldn't be on the throttle AND on the brakes at the same time. The bike CAN feel more stable if you use maintenance throttle - but you are slowing down turn-in, which may feel safer but can also make you run wide. One caveat here, I think some fast guys do use a slow controlled clutch release to get it sideways into a corner - but if that's the riding level you are talking about, I'll step out and you can direct the discussion to Stuman!

Since my favorite tire has recently been discontinued (see the other tire thread going on right now), I am considering buying a few sets of them now, while I can still get them, which begs the question - how long can I store them and how fresh do they need to be when I buy them? I know this has probably been discussed before, but I couldn't easily find the info, so here is the question again. I know how to look at the manufacture date, but how old is OK? A year? 6 months? And if I store the tires in a garage (which can get hot) how long before they start to go off? Can I store them another 6 months? I have gotten spoiled buying tires right at the track, where I know they have been recently manufactured and stored properly. Now I am going to have to find discontinued tires from suppliers that still have them - so I might be getting some stuff that's been sitting on a shelf for a long time. How old is too old?

Jaybird, if you want my Power Ones, come and get them, they're all yours. I rode on them at CA Speedway, Laguna Seca, and Streets, and found them to be NON confidence inspiring at all three tracks. On the bright side, they do have a lot of tread left in the center. I may go back to the much cheaper and very predictable Pilot Powers, which may have less grip but are a lot more fun to ride on, and are REALLY available to me at my home track, but most likely it will be Dunlops for me from now on. I'm really disappointed that Michelin made such a radical change.

FossilFuel!!! I am SO GLAD you posted this, I had trouble with these tires too. I was running Michelin PowerRace tires and loved them. They have been replaced with the Power Ones. So my tire vendor sold me those, said they would feel the same. I HATED them. I had head shake multiple places on the track (on AND off the gas!), which I have never experienced before, and repeatedly slipped both front and rear tires - even getting substantial slips on the rear tire on upshifts, with the bike completely upright. My confidence went WAY down, and after three sessions I went back and asked him to change the tires. He replaced them with the 'commercially available' version, which were a LOT better - they were less stiff, had a less radical profile, and warmed up quickly. So I started to ride better, and have a made a real effort to like these - but then I did a school day on Dunlops, had a blast - and when I got back on my own bike (also a ZX6R), the Power Ones felt awful in comparison. So, I'm done with them, they're going in the trash. My tire vendor said that since I wasn't using warmers and it was a cool day (60s) that I never warmed up the tires, and so they were stiff and slick. I noticed that the race version of the front tire was shorter in height than my Power Race tire, so my front end was lower and less stable. Then when I changed to the 'commercial' tire, it was HIGHER than my previous tire, had to change my setup again. So I don't know which of these issues you ran into, whether the tire was too stiff, too low-profile, didn't warm up, didn't give you enough feedback, or just plain didn't have enough grip, but I can tell you from direct experience that I can't ride for s__t on the Power Ones, I think it is totally possible that your crash was related to the change in tires, they do feel radically different to me. And I LOVED the Power Race and the Pilot Powers. So... which Dunlop were you using? I guess I'm changing brands! So sorry to hear about your crash, I hope you are OK. And that your bike is recoverable.

OK, I guess I should have known that. I'm going to have start watching more racing... I sometimes have trouble using reference points on the outside of the turn, it can make me late in looking for my exit point, and that definitely happens to me at Turn 9 if I look at the paint stripes, it's easy to end up looking at the exit lane instead of up the straight. Once I focused on looking up that straightaway, I was able to tighten up the turn a lot and had a much better drive. Totally agree that it takes nerve to keep the speed up through 8 - one thing that helped me was to really look at the track map, to get a better idea of the actual distance between turns 8 and 9, the straight between them was longer than I thought, and that info helped me be more confident in driving through 8.

Um, you don't look very ordinary in that PICTURE! No wonder you have trouble finding reference points, your eyes are only six inches above the track! I sure wish I could get down that low. I struggle with fidning reference points, too, for the same reasons you mentioned, and it seems like most track day organizations run sighting laps way too fast to be very useful. I haven't ridden Big Willow very much, but for me at Turn 9 the only thing I've been able to find is seams or skid marks, and those aren't great because there are a LOT of skid marks, and they change between track days. What I started doing in 9 is find my apex reference point first (there are some gouges in the track that work well and seem to be permanent), then just waiting, and staying pretty wide, until I could see the apex before considering a turn in, then looking for tire marks in that vicinity to pick a good turn point. Last time I went, there was a triangle of skid marks that was distinctive and easy to see from a distance. The key was to wait until I could see the apex, and after a few laps I had a pretty good picture of what the turn looked like from the general area of turn-in, and that gave me a chance to look for a good turn point reference. I think some people use an off-track reference point for 9, kinda like the water tower for Streets, but I don't know what they use, anyone here know?

Personally, I find that I can experiment with lean angle more easily if I hang off less, or not at all. That way I can keep about the same speed through the turn but have to lean over farther, AND I take away that combo of more lean angle plus hanging off, which pushes two of my "uh-oh" buttons at the same time, if you know what I mean. So essentially I can sit in a more secure position and lean more without having to go faster, so I tackle one thing at a time, then once I get more comfortable I can add the hanging-off part back in or add more speed. I also find that I can experiment more easily in long sweepers - more time to sense the lean angle, easier to get a smooth roll-on to stabilize the bike, more room, etc., versus trying to 'snap' the bike to a really sharp lean. And you aren't trying to do it at turn-in so you don't feel as much like you are going to tuck the front. Hope that helps...

I love my Starlane GPS timer but it is pricey. It stores a lot of tracks and you don't need a beacon. It's super accurate, can can work with a PC via bluetooth, but the PC software is not too impressive. It shows top speed, best lap (on the fly, and you can see it, and it flashes a light at you) and can do intermediates so you can segment the track into four sections.

I think this depends on how willing you are to push yourself in practice, and how seriously you take/set your goals. I can get faster with coaching and serious practicing, but if I'm not motivated I can also ride multiple track days without making any actual progress. Regarding racing - I just started with it, but I am finding that it can force me to take different lines, or change my technique to deal with a competitor, or push me into new situations (extreme braking or turning quickly to avoid another bike) that I wouldn't put myself in otherwise. And, of course, it gives me good incentive to actually TRY to go faster, and to see where others are faster than me. I learn a lot about my own limits or the limits of the bike, in a race. As someone once said to me "You do s__t in a race you would NEVER do in practice!" This helps my lap times because I realize I can push harder than I thought. But I know some people who ride so hard all the time that I'm not sure a race situation would make any difference for them; calm, goal-oriented practicing might be more productive.

Wow, really? I never would have thought of that. It definitely meets the requirements for small, quiet, portable and inexpensive. I guess I'll have to try it at home and see how high the effort level is - if it's pretty easy, that sounds like a great idea. Thanks! Hotfoot; I cornerworked at NJMP for the School yesterday and one of our CW's used a bicycle pump to adjust his tire pressure. Even though I offered him air from my small compressor, he was more comfortable with his pump. It worked...go figure... Kevin Thanks guys, you gave me a great solution, and probably saved me a lot of money and effort trying to get a tank or compressor installed. Terrific!

Well, the "cool" factor IS a little low, but it certainly makes for a practical solution and I think I'll go with it! I already gave up on being cool anyway. And yes, Jaybird, I've destroyed one of those foot pumps, too, so I learned that lesson firsthand, but thanks for the warning!

Wow, really? I never would have thought of that. It definitely meets the requirements for small, quiet, portable and inexpensive. I guess I'll have to try it at home and see how high the effort level is - if it's pretty easy, that sounds like a great idea. Thanks!

Hello track day addicts, I have a question. I am trying to get my trailer set up better for track days, and I want to have some sort of on-board air in case I need to adjust tire pressure. Currently we carry a 7 gal refillable air tank, but it's heavy and seems much larger than what we need. Any clever ideas out there for a better way to do this? Things that have occurred to me are: mount a small refillable air tank permanently somewhere on the trailer (how small can you get?), or get a small air compressor (but then I need power, don't always have it), or try to find some sort of disposable canisters (CO2? Nitrogen?). I'd love to hear any recommendations for anything that has worked well for you. I DO have a small compressor that runs off the cigarette lighter but it is SLOW and noisy and cheap, so we never actually use it, I want something better.

Having ridden the no BS bke more than once, I can attest that you cannot turn it. "They" (an instructor) told me that another instructor was able to make it turn gradually in a very wide open space but it was useless from a cornering a motorcycle perspective. There are no corners on any track that are that big where you could turn the No BS bike. OK, so just the one. I agree that there is no corner on a track that can be taken at speed. I was able to get my bike to competently corner at approx 15-20 mph around a "bend" I guess you could call it. I had my hands on the tank, close to the bars, and I assure you the bike was able to turn with leaning and peg pressure. I'll try it again later in the week if the parking lot is cleared, and give you my results. I have a camera that I'll mount, if I can get it to work. Just another variable to consider, it seems that it would be a LOT tougher to force the bike to lean with body weight at higher speeds. We know that the bike is designed such that when it is leaned over the front wheel will then turn into the lean (becuase of the trail) and balance it. It's possible to lean the bike at slow speeds by throwing your body weight over, but at high speeds I think you would have to use counter steering to force the lean.

I rode an old dual sport a little bit, had fun, then ran across a little Ninja 250, the only sport bike that seemed small enough for me. After a year or so of riding that occasionally, I watned to learn to ride better so I called up the Superbike School and asked if I would be able to handle the 636, since I knew I couldn't reach the ground even on my toes. Sure, they said, come on out! So I did, and I clearly remember being terrified of dropping the bike in the parking lot! Stu was my coach, he was very patient and I had a blast. Riding on the street lost all its appeal after trying out the track. It was so much more fun and so much safer! Now, OMG, I am a track addict and even starting to race. Thanks to all the CSS schools I've been to, the difference in my ability, my confidence, and my laptimes is staggering. I betcha no one that saw me at that first school would EVER have picked me out as someone who would take it this far, least of all me.

I had to read this like 200 times before I got it. This is confusing to me, probably because dropping weight doesn't REALLY change your horsepower (the engine makes what it makes), it just means that you can get more speed from the horsepower you have, because you are pushing less weight. Here's where I am getting stuck - in the equation above, HP = (force x velocity)/33000 (this is using ft/min not ft/sec). It looks like you are using weight as the "force" in that equation, which makes the math seem pretty simple - but I'm wondering if you can really do that, since we are talking about pushing a rolling bike instead of lifting a weight. For example, wouldn't the Force vary with speed, because of wind resistance? I'm not arguing the 7lb= 1 hp estimate, nor do I really want to start a physics discussion, but I'm just not convinced that doubling the speed would equate to cutting your weight advantage in half. I'm just not sure it would be directly proportional. I tried to find formulas for "horsepower gained by reducing weight", but had no luck, I just found rule of thumb estimates, which implies to me that the the calculation is either really complex or that hp and weight don't directly relate to each other. I did, however, see calculators that would give you your new top SPEED for a given horsepower if you reduce the weight, which made a LOT more sense to me. For fun, I ran the calculation for my bike, which was just repaired, taking the horsepower (measured on the dyno) from 93hp to 112hp. The math says I should get about 10mph additional top speed. I'll be taking it out Saturday and I have a GPS laptimer, which has my previous top speed stored. I'm going to measure the new top speed and see how close it is. So, for the sake of science and supporting the Forum, I'm planning to go out and ride the thing as fast as it will go. It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it...

Just so I understand, with the new sequence you are trying, are you pulling in the clutch before you brake and holding it in the whole time you are braking?

Ummm... forgive me, but I don't really watch racing - what did you actually see them doing, moving it back or not?

Not laughing at all, that sounds pretty uncomfortable! Something to think about - I occasionally get motion sickness on boats or in cars or buses, and there are two things that make it happen - diesel fumes, and staring at something that is not moving the same way I am. So if I try to read a book , or play cards, on a bus or in a boat I get nauseous. If I am also in a place where I get some diesel fumes it happens much quicker and it's much worse. Diesel fumes alone will make me nauseous and dizzy even without any motion. So I can see how the back of a truck taking up most of your field of vision AND poisoning you with fumes could make you feel lousy. I can't imagine that would EVER happen to you on the track, because what you SEE will relate properly to what you expect to see, and the fumes from race fuel from other bikes smell pretty damn good, actually, if you ask me! Definitely don't take any medicine. Please. It will impair your riding. I am confident you won't have any motion sickness problems. If you are new to track riding, you'll probably have some butterflies in your stomach - don't confuse that with motion sickness, I think EVERYBODY gets a little nerves the first few times out, it doesn't mean you are getting sick and it goes away once you get a few laps in. Um, since we are talking about illnesses here, did anyone warn you yet that track riding is extremely addicting? It has side effects like extreme expenditures, shortness of time, malaise at work, and can cause radical rearrangement of your priorities...

I guess I'm a bit late in giving my own 2 cts about Laguna Seca, but I had a terrific time too. Thank goodness I brought some warm clothes, and my old leathers are loose enough to wear with layers underneath! Terrific time at dinner, thanks SO MUCH for that, FossilFuel! It was a great way to kick things off, and it was great to meet you and your friends, and Domina. I've been neglectful of the forum... because I was busy preparing for an epic 8 hour endurance race on a rented NSR50. If you haven't ever raced one of those little buggers, you are missing out. It's about as fun as it gets, and certainly feels a lot less life-threatening than the big bikes. What a blast. We had no idea how competitive the race would be, we just did it for grins, but in spite of our inexperience and complete lack of practice, we finished with a pretty decent 8th place. My school at Laguna was good preparation, I was able to take some of the things I learned there and apply them in the race - better use of reference points is one example, that certainly helps enormously in a long race, it takes a lot less energy to get around the track when you know exactly where you want to go. I did this race last year, too, and one of the most satisfying things of all was to see some of the people that were faster than me last year - because THIS year, I was faster than them! Hallelujah! Thank you California Superbike School!