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racer

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Posts posted by racer

  1. I'm Going Racing

    in School Questions/General Discussion

    Posted

    Thanks for your help guys.

     

    This is where I come, I am #19

     

    Practice 18th from 25 riders

     

    Qualifying 18th from 27 riders

     

    Race 1. I come 16th from 26 riders

     

    Race 2. I come 14th from 20 riders

     

    Race 3. I come 12th from 21 riders ( I started this race from the back of the grid after someone stopped in front of me on the start line )

     

     

     

    Good job!

     

    Nice photos!

     

    Where is this racetrack?

     

    The camera angle reminds me of Sears Point.

  2. Steer In Opposite Direction Prior To Turn?

    in Cornering and Techniques

    Posted

    Hi harnois,

     

    I approach most turns at full throttle.

     

    I think that when the center of gravity moves left on a machine in motion that the axis of momentum will diverge from the direction of travel and countersteer the bike without needing to push the handlebar.

     

    I don't think the bike leans to the right first.

     

    I prefer not to leave anything to anyone else.

     

    I find riding my motorcycle reminds me of flying my plane. Yaw, pitch and roll. But any object in motion in a 3D inertial frame of reference will exhibit those three basic degrees of freedom.

     

     

    racer

  3. I'm Going Racing

    in School Questions/General Discussion

    Posted

    ...we don't have to do a thing to the bike,(how good is that)

     

    Cheers

     

     

     

    Although your question sounds rhetorical, in my opinion, how good an idea not doing a thing to the bike is is very debatable.

     

     

    I would need to know more about the circumstances. For instance, road course/road race/street race in the style of "buckets" racing in New Zealand is ususally not a balls out event. I don't know of anything organized or sanctioned that is comparable in the states. Where are you racing?

     

    In any case, I would urge you to think about what sort of stuff you would not want to fall off...oil plug, oil lines, coolant lines, brake calipers, axles and muffler and at least consider doing a light safety wire and clips. Make certain your tires and brake pads are at least fresh.

     

    I don't mean to put you off your game here, but, speaking for myself, I would not get on course with bikes that had not been properly prepped including non-slip coolant and professionally safety/race inspected.

     

    Even with the best of intentions, s**t happens. People forget to tighten a bolt to full torque and something falls off on the riding line or they fall on the riding line...you get the idea.

     

    If I were in your shoes, this being your first "race", keep your eyes peeled and stay relaxed, calm, in control of yourself and ride your own pace and plan. Do not get caught up trying to outride another guy. Or trying to "win".

     

    I would not push 100% in an event with other "street" bikes that had not been well-prepped and inspected by a certified race inspector. Hopefully, this is a sanctioned event and someone with proper experience will at least being looking over your equipment.

     

    Good luck.

  4. Steer In Opposite Direction Prior To Turn?

    in Cornering and Techniques

    Posted

    harnois,

     

     

    All due respect, I don't characterize the discussion as an argument. And I'm not actually trying to win anything.

     

    My only thought is to the benefit of those who read this website in the hopes of learning something to help them ride with more control and confidence.

     

    After twenty years benefiting from the wisdom and support of my sponsors, mentors, friends and competitors in the sport, many of whom are no longer with us while I have managed to survive, my only purpose is to help others by passing on what I have learned and sharing my experience in the hope that they stay with us a while longer.

     

    To that end, trying different things, thinking it through and sharing the insights of others is, in my opinion, the point of this forum and the best way to sort things out.

     

    So, at the risk of repeating myself, I do not dispute that it is possible to force a bike to change direction by shifting one's body. However, after further thought, I no longer think it is due to orthogonal torque at the front axle causing a precessional effect, but, rather, it is still counter-steering as the essential effect is re-directing momentum off-axis from the direction of travel.

     

    At the end of the day, I think a picture speaks a thousand words and the No BS video pretty much speaks for itself. I think anyone can clearly see what is happening. And what isn't.

     

    I hope everyone will continue to think about it and experiment. The more we learn the more there is to learn I always say.

     

     

    Have you tried hanging off with full throttle at 40, 70...or 140 mph, yet?

     

    (I use my thumb and forefinger on the throttle in lieu of a throttle lock to minimize any handlebar input.)

     

    Let us know what happens.

     

     

    For the record, if one wishes to build consensus, they will find a way.

     

    I urge everyone to actually click the link in the preceeding post and read Keith's entire conversation in context.

     

     

    Cheers,

    racer

     

     

    PS I've always thought of my motorcycle as magical!

  6. I'm Going Racing

    in School Questions/General Discussion

    Posted

    My strategy is:

     

    don't crash.

     

     

    ;-)

     

     

    Seriously,...

     

    Be prepared. Have everything you can think of ready and prepped ahead of time. I assume you have a license and have completed a school and mock race to be able to compete? And your bike is drilled and wired to tech spec's? Race rubber mounted?

     

    Anything that needs to be done, have it done before you go, so that all you need to do is take the bike out and ride, and put it away when you are done so you can focus on riding.

     

    Get lots of sleep and arrive early.

     

     

    For the record, I have never managed to do any of these things and always suffered for it. The guys who can simplify and stay ahead of the curve throughout the weekend will have less tendency to fall behind when some little thing crops up like nobody told them they couldn't race with a helmet more than two years old. Or that WERA requires about fifty times as much wire as AMA, or....you'll see.

     

    No matter how prepped you think you are, chances are, something will not go according to plan and minmiizing these distractions is the number one thing in my book.

     

    Good luck

     

    Shiny side up!

     

    Bring us a good story and...no crashing.

     

    racer

  9. Steer In Opposite Direction Prior To Turn?

    in Cornering and Techniques

    Posted

    QUOTE(harnois @ Jun 5 2007, 04:18 PM)

    I just rode my bike to work this morning, so I did the test again and again and again and the result is always the same. I can remove my hands from the handlebars and still adjust the direction of the bike by leaning back and forth. Leaning off the bike in and of itself causes the bike to lean in that direction and turn in that direction.

     

     

     

     

    Exactly.

     

    LEANING back and forth.

     

    That is motion and momentum.

     

    Not purely position.

     

    To isolate the handlebar pressure required to maintain a straight line while hung off, try your original test at 40 mph.

     

    Establish a proper position, let go of the bars, and then observe the result.

     

    If you let go of the bars first, the challenge is to see if you can hang off without turning.

     

    Smoooooth. ;-)

  13. Steer In Opposite Direction Prior To Turn?

    in Cornering and Techniques

    Posted

    Hi harnois,

     

    I don't dispute that it is possible to "*throw* a bike off-balance" as Will said, or get a bike to "veer off by *shifting* body mass" as Keith said. The key, if one reads carefully, is the "movement", the "shifting", the "throwing", the "jerking" which amplifies the orthogonal force applied at the axle. Like you noted, due to his mostly vertical position, the rider in the video only sees an effect when the inertia of his body movement is transformed or transfered to the vertical component. The action is, like you said, the equivalent of hanging a heavy weight far off the side of the bike. In any case, I would suggest everyone read the entire linked quotes carefully and consider them within their intended context. Especially noting Keith's qualifications of low speed and being off the gas with more weight on the front wheel, etc. In any case, harnois, you yourself stated that the faster the bike is moving, the less effect "body steering" will have.

     

    So, I really don't see any arguments there.

     

    In my experience at racetrack speeds (on the racetrack), a smooth and controlled body motion to establish a parallel body position *not* far off the side of the bike (as Keith teaches and the champions do) will not upset the balance (or the suspension). I cannot speak for your experience.

     

    As for the only point I see in contention...it was apparently a disconnect in communication and/or perception.

     

    Based on our mutual observations of *movement* having an amplification effect on position via inertia, and our mutual conclusion that the quality/quantity of said motion (in addition to position) being critical, my point is/was that if we wish to completely isolate the body *movement* wrt *throwing* a bike off balance to make it change direction, then, by definition, it is necessary to remove one's hands from the handlebars before you *move* the body.

     

    However, to test pure *static* body position and pressure on the outside handlebar as an effect on keeping the bike straight, establishing the body position first and making certain that the bike is vertical and running straight before "letting go" of the bars would be appropriate to eliminate the factor of lateral *movement* or momentum.

     

    I would suggest that performing that test at spirited riding speeds is necessary to make a final determination relevant to real riding conditons (unlike the pits, parking lot or the no BS video).

     

     

    racer

  14. Steer In Opposite Direction Prior To Turn?

    in Cornering and Techniques

    Posted

    Just go out and ride your own bike. Get into the hang-off position and then let go of the handlebars.

     

     

    Why not let go of the handlebars first...... then get into the hang off position?

     

    I don't see that it really make much difference. But the suggestion I made was a test to isolate a specific cuase for a specific effect.

     

    Actually it makes a big difference as it more completely isolates the effect of hanging off. Frequently riders use the handlebars for leverage or to support their body weight when moving around on the bike and inadvertently create steering inputs

     

    The test that I suggested exactly as I suggested it demonstrates that being in the hang off position with the bike close to upright will cause the bike to lean gradually in that direction. If you let go of the handlebars first, then move into the hang off position, it introduces the possibility of a different cause to the effect - that possibly the motion of you moving from one position to another is the cause of the lean. I wanted to demonstrate that being in a steady hang off position with no presure on the handlebars will cause the bike to lean gradually in that direction.

     

    I agree that it is important to be smooth when moving around on the machine so as not to upset the suspension or introduce any "body steering".

     

    As you agree that input to the handlebars is at least an order of magnitude more effective than "body steering" in creating steering changes, I would assume that, logically, you would also then agree that isolating the handlebars is an order of magnitude more important than isolating the risk of "body steering" by a mass "jerk" (technical physics term...no really!) to unbalance the gyroscopic forces stabilizing the bike.

     

     

    I just watched the video on this site where no B.S. bike is ridden along the track and the rider moves around on the bike to show how little affect it has when the hands are not on the handlebars that are attached to the forks.

     

    http://superbikeschool.com/multi-media/machinery-videos.php (Click on the NO B.S. video)

     

    The bike clearly moves back and forth across the track somewhat even when his hands are on the upper handlebars. It's subtle, but it's definitely there. I'm not saying the effect is useful, actually I think it's more of a nuisance, but it is there, and it has to be counteracted when approaching a turn in a hung off position if you want to maintain a straight line.

     

    But it takes so little presure on the bar to counteract it and most riders will do it naturally anyway, so I think it is not worth getting too wrapped up in.

     

     

    In other words, one must throw one's body weight back and forth to create a slight unbalancing of the gyroscopic stabilization effect at even the slowest speeds.

     

    Being that it takes a full body throw to create even the tiniest effect at even the lowest gyroscopic stablization speeds, one can see that in the normal course of riding and hanging off (one can clearly see from the video), that normal body motion has effectively zero effect on steering and that the perception of needing to apply pressure to the outside handlebar might be due to a rider unconsciously applying pressure to the inside handlebar.

     

    Being that this is ultimately a matter of life and death .... and I take life and death very seriously .... I think it is well worth "getting wrapped up in". As wrapped up as it takes to sort out the truth of the matter. After all, at the end of the day, it might be your life that rides on knowing.

     

     

    Cheers,

    racer

  15. Blip On Downshift

    in Cornering and Techniques

    Posted

    i dont know if it is a retarder, but my zx6 needs a little clutch at moderate speeds when shifting. At "fun" speeds it shifts seemlessly with a minor blip, but at low speeds no blip is necessary unless im going into first.

     

     

    Hey Michael,

     

    I'm not familiar with late-model ZX6 tech spec's, but, "moderate road speeds" around town will generally find one in the "torque band", the lower half of the rpm range above "low end" but below the mid-range flat spot at the torque/bhp cross-over point (check out a graph of torque/bhp vs rpm from a dyno run) where the ratio of torque/rpm is greater, hence, it can be more dificult to access the "sweet spot" between positive and negative torque on the drivetrain to make your shift. In that 'torque band' a small on/off movement of the throttle makes a fast/big torque effect compared to a relatively low torque event for an on/off movement at high or very low rpm.

     

    The point is that it is not an insurmountable goal with practice.

     

    That said, like harnois' bogus retarded Suzuki, there may be some detail of your ZX6 that I am not aware of (and would never think of!) that might make it more difficult.

     

     

    racer

     

     

    PS: It's really helpful to separate road speed, engine speed and throttle position when thinking about "this stuff".

  16. Blip On Downshift

    in Cornering and Techniques

    Posted

    Thanks for that, harnois.

     

    I haven't worked within the industry for awhile, so there are many things I am not "up to date" on.

     

    The last thing that pissed me off was the Hayabusa bhp limiter and HRC wide-squish/unlead RS heads. (Gives you an idea how long I've been away...lol.)

     

    Anyway, a friend of mine owns a local Suzuki dealership and operates a national discount mail order OEM/aftermarket parts business as well. He probably knows about the TRE stuff already, but, I'll bet he'll be glad to find out if he doesn't!

     

    Cheers,

    racer

  17. Blip On Downshift

    in Cornering and Techniques

    Posted

    Also...

     

    Low rpm blip/shift technique requires more blip due to less crank momentum prior to acceleration.

     

    The same is true in the lower gear sets due to the greater difference in rpm between each gear as opposed to the closer ratios of the upper gear sets.

     

    Low rpm blip/shifts in low gears is a slightly slower overall affair that can feel somewhat like "waiting" (especially with a slow, high mass stock crankshaft/flywheel) and may take a bit more practice to master the slower "feel" or timing of than high rpm blip/shifts in high gear.

     

     

    Cheers,

     

    racer

  18. Blip On Downshift

    in Cornering and Techniques

    Posted

    Hey harnois,

     

    Can you post a link to that info you found about a "timing retarder" for the first half of the throttle in the first four gears?

     

    It sounds *very* counter-intuitive and is exactly opposite to the way I (and everyone I know) program ignition timing maps for a performance machine.

     

    In any case, that's BOGUS, dude! The first thing I would do is get rid of it!

     

    (The retarder thing, not the bike...lol.)

     

     

    Thanks,

    racer

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