andy cunningham

FAST AS HELL!!!!! I'd personally treat it as any other corner out there, slightly roll onto the gas before you get to the apex and maybe drive out slightly slower (possible negative camber, depending on the bends you have). Also, you wouldn't need to place so much weight over the front, so you could comfortably afford a higher riding position and better visibility. You could also try a different line to the corner to give you something different to compare with your previous attempts. Try going in wide and cutting across the corner, as if you were going for max drive out of the bend. See how it compares, whether it's better or not than your previos line, you'll know which way to go towards improvement. PS: I can't say I've really ridden many downhill corners, but the above is what I remember doing on the few I have ridden. Hope it helps.

For camera shots looking back at the rider from the cockpit, try purchasing the 2005 Isle of Man TT video from Duke Video. However, this is bolted to the bike, so leans with it. Watch some MotoGP footage, (Try www.MotoGP.com) there are numerous camera angles on there, off the back, offf the front, near the wheel, the rider's face, following bike, etc, but again, all lean with the bikes. As for following, non-leaning cameras like they were bolted to a car; apart from inventing some new fangled technology to make the camera stay upright or being trailed by a formula one car, nothing doing I'm afriad, not that I know of anyway!

Hmmm, I use tyre warmers and get 3 days out of Slicks. If I used super sticky road tyres, like the new Dunlop Qualifiers, I'd probably still get 3 days out of them, but might then be able to use them for a short while on the road bike. The difference in price is not that much, so I might as well go for the Slicks and have the best grip I can get. Just as a quick additional thought: Slicks can also perform better in the damp and cold than any super sticky road tyre. My Bridgestone guy recommends Slicks over Intermediates in the damp! Cut Slicks if conditions get worse, standing water = time to go to Full Wets. Last Sunday (26th March) was the first round of the British Superbike Championship. In the second race it was persisting it down with rain. The guy who won the race was the only one to be using full wets. (it was raning, but it wasn't absolutly soaking wet and there was no standing water), everyone else had gambled on intermediates, just in case it got slightly dryer. Gregorio Lavilla went out on Slicks! He came fourth I believe! Held his position through the whole race! It goes to show, super sticky tyres that run hot are better than not so sticky tyres that run cooler when on a cold track. Due to the water on the track being only a surface coating, the tyre profile will push any water aside, you don't really need any tread. So go for the stickyest tyre you have!

Holy Hell! I'd have thought they'd have run out of tread before thatmany days of use, let alone the whole heat cycle concept! Maybe it was your warmer climate, they never cooled down!

I like the comment about using your knees and teighs to lock into the tank when moving the body around. It made me realise that I was doing this just the other day. I tried using my knees to lock on when changing from one side to the next and it worked. It kept my hands loose on the bars (much the same as braking) and it also felt like it was ever-so-slightly helping to pull the bike over to the other side as well. Basically, it felt good and gave me more confidence. As itwas also a road bike standard seat I was on, it was quite slippery once unloaded, so I onlyhad to apply minimal pressure to the balls of my feet and then simply slide over to the side. On my race bike, I tend to go up and over letting my teigh grip the tank. One other thing I noticed was tht I have started keeping my outside knee locked into the tank until I'm at 40 degrees of lean, then letting it hang out. This really helps with keeping steady on the bike whilst braking and tipping in. your lower back does take a pounding, but it's well worth it. More time in the gym for me! For all of you practicing on paddock stands, beware, they can still topple over! lol

Good point. If you come from the brakes sraight to a fair bit of power on a very tight line and alot of lean angle it could lead to pushing the front. What I meant by once on the gas the front can't wash, is where you have started getting the bike more upright, even if only slightly and then give it the gas, as the front wheel is often only taking say 20% of the bike load. When you are turning tight, you need both tyres on the floor, push one sideways and the rear will follow. Same as a front wheel drive car when the wheels slip, the rear follows.

Just a quick one with reagrd to the perception of steering a bike. There are three things here refered to in thi thread as steering: 1) Steering with the rear 2) Counter Steering 3) Sliding/Spinning Up Spinning the rear wheel or sliding the front can be used as steering if your good enough. No denial! Counter steering is the only other way of doing it without sliding a tyre! Steering with the rear seems to me a bit more of a vauge description of something else. Once the bike is leant over I feel there is no longer any steering involved until you need to make correction or exit the corner. The bike is leant over and on a set radius. The wheels are pointing where the bike is going and nothing has to be done. The bike would go round in circles until it ran out of fuel. No steering. It's riding a straight line but with a side-swipe of gravity thrown in for good measure. Once you are on the gas (straight after initial turning in) the rear of the tyre should have somewhere around 60% of the tyre grip. After all, that's why it's a larger tyre! More weight is on the back wheel. If you open the throttle and get the front off the floor, then 98% of the weight is on the rear wheel with 2% being supported by win blast, maybe. The rear isn't steering, it is simply following it's pre-selected path. It is on the side wall and is affectively going in a straight line. The curvature of the tyre and gravity keeps the bike going round in circles! No steering here. Once your on the gas, you can slide or countersteer out of the corner. Therefore, with regard to front wash-out, I can only for see it happening when you are decelerating at any point of the track, or when you are cornering with the 60/40% weight bias to the rear wheel and you hit a reduced traction surface, say oil. (or rain if your pushing hard) If it is mid corner, it can be 50/50 as to whether the front or rear lets go, depending on what you are doing with the controls. I don't think you can really have a front wash-out once on the gas or when settled into the corner without the aid of oil, but the rear would let go as well! (Having more weight on it!) Just my two cents worth!

Just a quick addition for you guys, which proves that you really do not have to clamp onto the bars even the slightest bit to ride a bike on track at speed. Not sure if many of you have seen this pictures before, but basically, due to a nasty accident, this chap lost the use of his left arm completely. Therfore it is tucked inside his leathers. As you can see, he's clamping on and doing quite well:

I have noticed there are alot of different thought pattern going on in this thread and many different area's of riding style and C of G being investigated. There are amny arguments about high and low body positions giving more or less lean angle, but try hanging off one side of the bike in all the varying positions when it's upright and going straight, you'll soon notice the bike is leaning the other way. Proof enough for me! the more you get off the side, the less lean angle you eat into. As for sitting high or low when hanging off, I believe it only affects vision and helps control your fear of being too close to the ground, hence pushing your SR's back yet further. Some folks say sitting higher when hanging off and therefore raising the CofG helps turn the bike quicker and gives you less lean andgle, but if this is true, it has to be such a small amount of change it would hardly be worth investigating or practicing! The picture above are interesting too. Again, hard to see motion in a picture, or whether the rider is racing, practicing or just having a laugh, but there are some key points to note: The guys riding crossed up have the butt checks so far off the seat, if they had their body parallel to the bike, they'd slip off. As mentioned by Cobie above, they'd end up clamping onto the bars, not good. There is only so far you can get off the side of a bike before you have to compromise your position. Each rider has their own style. There is a link to a picture of Rossi further up the thread. His body position is what I believe to be spot on. He isn't crossed up at all. He's hanging off just the right amount, not too little, not too much, he has a good lock on the bike. His upper body is parallel to the bike, not twisted at all, but he is sitting tall, possibly making his position appear crossed up. Rossi's position would be the most favourable for several reasons. Better visibility over a larger area. More confidence due to his head being further away from the ground. greater wind loading on his chest, possibly holding him up alittle, as if he were clamping onto the wind for stability. This is a shot of me racing a honda CB500. As can be seen here, I am hanging roughly parallel to the bike, but with my upper body high. this is partly because the track temperature was 1 degree C and I was nervous about binning it (wasn't my bike) and also because I was still getting used to the bike. but visibility was never a problem, neither was ground clearance, as can be seen by the rear brake lever, in stock position. Another quicky: As can be seen here, I'm riding a Suzuki TL1000R on a track day and scrubbing the tyres in. The body is parallel with the bike and ever-so-slightly lowered. If I were racing, I would no doubt lower the upper body a slight amount and get lower as I got on the gas. but fundamentally it's all there! Something to note with Rossi's position, is when he gets on the gas hard and leaves a corner, his upper body gets very low. He stays parallel with the bike but gets down, therefore pushing the bike slightly more upright and obtaining more tyre grip. he then starts to bring his head in, behind the screen as the bike is nearly vertical again but leaves his butt hanging in the wind until the cornering is over and he's on the straight, where any sudden moves would not compromise on grip. Last point from me today: The shots of riders above with their chest accross the bike. I believe there is actually a gap between their chest and the bike and that if anything, they are holding onto the outside of the tank with the inside of their elbow. Having my chest on the bike during cornering makes me feel that I have no room for adjustment. An elbow can really assist with clamping on. however, this does not nesesarily mean you putting lots of weight on the front wheel. With your chest, you would be. An elbow become preferential again, due to lack of weight implications. If anything, you are helping to pull the bike over and hold it down! I wonder what questions this reply will through up? lol

My first observation here: Different bikes require different riding styles and my second: Different riders prefer ever varying riding styles. Superdave88: Superbikes have more or less regular seat and bar heights, as they have to be homologations of the road bikes they are based on. that said, GP bikes are very much the same heights, therefore proving the manufacturers have it right for supersports bikes. Footpegs are raised from standard road position for track racing on all but the strictest one make racing series. This is to increase available ground clearance when leaning the bike over on the track. Regular supersports road machines are built slightly lower for comfort on long runs and for Joe Public. If you have ever sat on a real race bike or a road bike modified as such, you'll get leg ache after an hour. Footpegs do assist in using the whole body as a steering lever, but I think that's too technical for this question and a bit off subject. The idea of a lower centre of gravity providing quicker turning is true, you can't beat it. It is a basic lever effect. (Lesson in physics there!) If you are really on the pace on a track day and the bike is being riding to within a millimeter of loosing traction completely, then you need as low a centre of gravity in corners as possible, to reduce stresses on your tyres. Hanging from the inside of the bike helps to get you body weight lower and (more importantly) closer to the centre of radius of the turn. This really does help, trust me! For example, go to an Ice Rink somewhere and watch some pro Speed Skaters. Watch their body stance in the corners. They lean so far over that they drag their inside hand on the ice. (to gauge their lean angle, much the same as sticking your kneeout on the track) In comparrison to bikes, they could try leaning the blades but no leaning with their bodies. I can assure you they would have to go alot slower to stay upright. They lean their bodies right over to get a lower centre of gravity and to get the majority of their weight closer to the inside of the turn, to allow gravity to slightly assist in getting them round the corner quicker. The same rules apply for bikes. Why do you think a MotoGP star has never tried sitting up more or using upright bars during a race in modern history? Having higher bars and staying more upright (keeping a higher centre of gravity) in the corners will give you much more confidence in the twisties, I won't deny that. I used to ride a Honda Hornet CB600 and it was very reasuring. I found it to be the same on a Yamaha FZ600 Fazer. This is because you have a wider bar to lever the front wheel with, giving you easier control over steering. The high position keeps you further from the floor, assisting with nerves and the natural desire to stay alive. Waynedunham: I believe, from what you have said below, that you were slightly un-nerving your instructor with your hanging off style, possibly not something you do naturally on the street? Basically, by telling you to stay more upright and focus on the corners and set up (in slow out fast), you lost several seconds per lap. You learnt something very important there - Keep it simple! By cutting out all the effort and work of hanging off and trying to sort everything else out as you approach a corner, you were able to focus all your thoughts and feelings on the deceleration, down shifting and cornering itself, therefore becoming much more relaxed on the bike. This helped you get round quicker. Now, enter Mr Valentino Rossi on your bike at the CSS. He hangs off on every corner. Assuming he has set a few control laps at speed, you tell him to stop hanging off and keep himself mostly centred around the seat and try to keep his lap times the same. Imagine what would happen. He would probably be seen braking very harsh into corners, back wheel sliding and bobbing off the floor every where. He would be seen carrying huge amounts of lean angle into and through corners and getting so hard on the gas that the bike would be spinning up everywhere. His lap times would also be slower, "for sure"! Racing has proven that lower, shorter bars provide better front end loading, better aerodynamics and better riding position. (for racing at least). The relatively high seats (in comparrision to the bars) assist in getting weight over the front and allow the rider better feel for what the rear tyre is doing. The high footpegs are for ground clearance more than anything. Racers hang off for a lower centre of gravity. Proven fact I'm afriad! Just as a quick sum up: Everyone rides differently. High bars and higher centre of gravity makes cornering better and quicker for some (less to think about) but not for others. I personally get a feeling of running wide and imminent death if I don't hang off my bikes. Racing has proved that when really pushing a bike and tyres to the limits, hanging off and lowering the centre of gravity, as well as low bars and high footpegs is definitely the way to go for faster lap times. One last fly to throw into the ointment - Supermoto bikes! I recently watched them compete on the track against Aprilia RSV1000's, CBR600RR's and a ZX10R Kawasaki. The Supermoto's were right at the front and came first and third. The riders of the supermotos stayed upright in the seat and leant off the wrong way whilst the supersports riders hung off. Does this mean they have it right or does it mean they have different machines which require different riding styles? You see, this is an endless debate if you are not considering different styles of bikes. Not neccessarily saying anyone in here was, I just decided to go for it on this one and write down all my feelings, with some of the more complex Physics left out. lol Hope I didn't bore any of you too much?!

I see where you are going, but your not quite there. Basically, holding the throttle constant during a turn will leave the contact patch at around 40/60%. If you were coasting through the turn, you would have closer to 50/50%, as the deceleration without brakes would be compensated by the suspension. When accelerating, the more you open the throttle the more the bias of weight to the rear tyre and opposite way around on the brakes, but holding constant throttle should not be seen as the mid-way point of the equation. The very middle point (50/50%) would be where the throttle is at zero but engine braking isn't involved (as this could be seen as negative throttle). Basically, somewhere between throttle off and coasting. Image coasting without friction of wind slowing you down! that's 50/50%! With the throttle holding constant speed, I believe you are at no less than 45/55%, as the motor is always pushing you forward, hence the motive power is always at the rear wheel. Again, suspension comes into play, but I wouldn't worry about being at 50/50% on constant throttle positioning. Hope that helped?

Cheers! Yeah, the fast guys at the front all run on super sticky slicks of varying compounds. Dunlops seem to be the favourite, but I prefer the Bridgestones with a higher profile, to help the bike flick a lot quicker. Most of them get through a set or two per day and at two day rounds that gets expensive! I'll be sticking to two heat cycles and then one practice session on them, possibly with some cuts in to generate extra heat, but that's it, no more fun on those. Basically, my bike really takes it out on tyres, eats them for breakfast before I even wake up! I would love to run super-sticky race compound treaded tyres that last longer, but I simply can't afford the loss of traction that would occur, especially when braking hard up the inside of a ducati on a mission! Iam lucky in that I managed to haggle with the main tyre dealer in the paddock who deals with Bridgestone direct and I got an absolut cracker of a deal. As long as I put Bridgestone stickeres around the bike in prominant places and wear my Bridgestone baseball cap for any photos or at podium time, then they'll provide me with any compound slick tyres, fitted to the bike and hand cut for the track/conditions, all for 2/3rds of the price! Bonus! and that it still ?210GBP. ($375USD) This includes full wets as well, but they'll only really last two races, irrelevant of heat cycles or wear, they just seem to stop working?! No intermediates for me, just hand cut slicks for damp or cold conditions! Still, I have plenty of spare wheels for last minute change of mind!

I found this quite funny with regard to this article. I appreciate motion doesn't get captured by cameras and also under stand that some riders grip with their thighs rather than the knee, but I also wondered how they grip like this and still stay on the bike! Then I noticed this picture of me at Snetterton in the UK on my Suzuki TL1000R Race Bike: It appears that sometimes I hang off, gripping with my Thigh and not my knee. Maybe I was moving still, but who knows. Ok, so I've not got alot of lean on the go in this shot, I think it was taken whilst I was scrubbing in some new slicks, but it made me laugh!

When you say 'Full Race' Compund, I take it you mean still road legal, with tread? With my Slick tyres, I've been told by Bridgestone that I can get away with three, possibly four heat cycles, but then I should throw them away. They turn very hard and offer not alot of grip after three cycles.

Bloody Hell! Major Head Job! Do I now have to take a scientific calculator out with me on the track, bolted to the handle bars and work out all of the above? You guys have been thinking about this just a little too much. There is theory and there is explaination, then there is the N'th degree, a Masters Degree no less! I'm not really sure why the maths of it all has ended up in here? I know it doesn't assist my riding in any way knowing that m*g*x=Big Balls of Steel! I'll just get out there using the techniques Keith has provided in his books and figure out my style of racing. (Plus get on some of the courses! ) I wonder if you lot are spending too much time on line and not enough time in the garage maintaining and looking after your bikes? 'm not having a dig at anyone, I just thought this was massively over the top for riding advice. Too heavy for me, that's for sure!

I never considered throttle before releasing breaks before. but isn't that a burn-out! I'l have a play with that when I get chance!

I think he meant decreases?! Basically, add ever so slightly more throttle than you need until you are upright, as the bike will be effectively loosing RPM from tyre radius getting larger at the same time you are trying to build RPM with the throttle. On the track, you shouldn't really be thinking about this, just give the bike enough gas to almost break the rear tyre grip, or actually break it if that's the way you steer a bike. On the street, just keep it smooth and build the power gradually.

This is absolutly true, you can feel it as your cornering, but it leaves me with a conundrum: This principle works great on the road, you can decelerate up to the corner, tip in and get back on the gas fine, but it's racing that drives me at the moment. When approaching a corner from a straight, I'd be braking and downshifting, then easing off the brakes as I lean it in (still braking hard) and getting on the gas just before my max. lean angle for that particular corner. But adding braking forces and cornering forces to the suspension during the initial turning/steering movement and then trying to get the suspension back inside it's most compliant area is the challenge. I feel that it takes a while to do, too long, as the bike starts to feel loose/ragged and wobbles around. A very unsettling feeling. If only it didn't do that! I keep thinking that I must be doing something wrong, but then I see the Pro's at the same corner and they also get a noticable wobble as they get on the gas. Is it normal to do this or is there a smoother way, without sacrificing on speed/time through a turn? Andy C

It makes sense to me. We roll on the throttle to maintain speed and to conter the effects of decreasing tyre radius as we lean it in, so as to not lose more speed than we intended to. A quick sum-up: As you lean the bike over, it rides nearer to the tyre wall, where the radius of the tyre is smaller, therefore the wheel has to turn faster for the given speed, hence the rev's will go up, but due to us holidng a steady throttle, this allows the revs to drop back to where they were before the corner. This allows the bike to slow down even though we have the same throttle and same RPM. The wheel is tuning as fast as before, but on a smaller radius, hence the wheel covers less distance per revolution. Thus why we initially increase the throttle as we tip in. Now imagine an endless corner, say a road island: If we drop into this island in second gear and keep increasing the throttle the whole time, we'd reach top power in the gear being used and have to change up, this will happen again and again until you are at top rev's in sixth. Now, do you think you would be travelling at the same speed you entered or a dam site quicker at top revs in sixth? I believe the idea of constantly rolling the throttle on in a corner is ideal, to keep most of the weight transfered to the rear of the bike and to increase ground clearance and especially to get a good, stong, smooth drive out of a corner. But for long bends, once the roll on has commenced and we are at the desired speed and lean angle for that corner, the throttle must be maintained at the same RPM until you are at the point where you can build speed without compromising your line.

Brakes to appex and gas afterwards? Great in the perfect 90 degree corner after a long straight and before a short one, but otherwise not true. This doesn't reflect setting an arc before getting on the gas. If a corner was over 400m long, then you would brake before the corner to get the speed nearly there, brake for 200m into the corner then 200m out again? What about an early apex to get better drive out of a corner? What about a chicane where you are braking all the way through the first corner or possibly accellerating all the way through the second? I understand what you were saying in terms of keeping it very simple, someone once told me this and I spent a year getting corners wrong. I build on this as the keystone for all cornering, but it is quite simply wrong! Sorry! Each and every corner is different and required different reactions. As mentioned above, brake where you need to but try to be on the gas once you have your cornering arc set, unless there is another sharper corner coming immediatly. Even on the road this is a bit dodgy, as you will want to have most of your braking out of the way before you finish tipping in, otherwise that road kill you hit will definatly drop you and the bike!

This is a shot of me on a CBR600RR at my first ever track day: As you can see, in this case it is because I was a Novice. Body position is high and apex is not in the frame! This position is ok, if you don't really want to go too fast, but when I now get my bike completely on song round fast corners, I have to have my upper body parallel with the bike. Anywhere else and I feel I should back off a little! I shall always endeavor to keep my body low from now on, this upright style I reserve for when I'm getting all screwed up on track!

This subject got my attention alot yesterday, so I went home and studied the 2003 season of MotoGP to see what was going on. I saw an awesome shot of Troy Basliss on the Ducati, doing this very position, however, he was about to go from hard right to hard left through some esses and upon going left had the standard (non-twisted) body position! I can only assume that the various riders at top level adopt this strange twisting position when special cercumstances call for it. For example, about to swap directions and need some weight transfere from one side to the next, or to see over a crest, or possibly they feel the tyres washing out and are trying to adjust their position to maintain better grip? Who knows, at the end of the day, everyone is different. Look at Yukio Kagayama next time you watch WSB or even Makoto Tamada in MotoGP, they both lean their upper bodies far further towards the inside than any other riders seem to do. should we re-start the debate on this one too? I believe certain body positions offer certina advantages in differing situations and these top-level racers have discovered the optimum position for each and every turn in the ongoing hunt for greater traction and drivability!

Indeed, many of the things I have been told about this bike I have proved to be inaccurate!

The main difference here seems to be a combination of the fact he is hanging off alot more than most folks, almost his whole ass is off the seat (not sure how good his grip is on the bike like this) and also he doesn't appear to be dropping the elbow. My conclusions: His ass is off the seat more to compensate for his upper body being higher. His centre of gravity/mass on the bike is similar to other riders. This position arguably gives him greater visibility round this bend and possibly in his mind, more aerodynamics, which hardly matters when cornering near max lean, as the power of the bike and the max. corner speed posible at that angle dictate that any savings in aerodynamics are pritty pointless at this stage. I haven't seen any other pictures of bayliss at work. Is this always his position? Is he actually getting ready for the drive out of this corner? Maybe this corner has a crest he is trying to get a sight line over? This style could be for many reasons. I would suggest that the traditional style of not twisting be used mostly, unless there is something you need to adapt your riding position for, ie, seeing over a crest!

Wow! I never tried that one out. I thought that would be certain death! I shall endevour to do this every time. Here in the UK, it is very rare to be able to practice this art. You can't do it on track days, they don't like it very much. When it comes to race day, they'll only let you practice at the start of the race itself! As for the road, aherm, sorry officer! The first time I tried a full race start was during my first ever race. Once we were focused on the starting lights I began revving the bike, a little bit at a time with the rev's gradually building. I had seen this so many tims on DVD's of British and World Superbikes. When the lights went out I started feeding the clutch out and giving it more gas. The start went ok, now one came past. Ok, I didn't overtake either, but I was supprised. I though I'd be going backwards through the pack! I guess I never really thought about holding the gas wide open and using clutch only. Mostly for fear or letting too much clutch out (Ouch!) or killing the engine by bouncing a valve. I guess too much power is better than not enough! Still, only one way to discover if it works for me! I'll let you know how I get on!