How Does Anybody Manage To Hang Off?

[pbrown]

Not sure you can help without actually seeing this but here goes.

 

I have been riding bikes for years on the road & have bought the books & used some of the tips but I have never bothered hanging off the bike. I have now started to do trackdays & have noticed that I am virtually running off the edge of the tyre without going particularly quickly so it's about time I started to adjust my riding style & hang off the bike & get it more upright thru' the corners. This would probably be a really good idea as I am not exactly a light weight at 6' 2" 240lbs so my bulk should make a big difference in the right place.

 

The problem comes when I try to apply this, at the trackday I had my chest at the side of the tank with my head approx. where my mirror would be & my butt halfway off the seat but my inside knee was up against the tank rather than stuck out & it seemed to have a lot of weight on it.

 

I have since set the bike up on a paddock stand so I can practice this off the track but still don't seem to get it right. If I have 1/2 my butt on the seat when hanging off I seem to be able to have my knee out but most of my weight is still on the inside foot. If I move my body further off the seat & only have my thigh on the seat with outside knee against tank my whole body seems to swivel forward & my inside knee comes round.

 

I have allotted time / money to do level 1&2 early next year (once your schedule is out) but reading the web site this seems to be something you look at in level 3. Would I benefit from using stompgrip or is this something much more fundamental than that?

[2bigalow]

Check this post out. I think it will answer your question.

 

Riding on the edge of the tire is not necessarily an indicator of needing to hang off. Good throttle application and other skills can affect that too. Level 1 and 2 will address that.

[pbrown]

Check this post out. I think it will answer your question.

 

Riding on the edge of the tire is not necessarily an indicator of needing to hang off. Good throttle application and other skills can affect that too. Level 1 and 2 will address that.

 

What post?

 

You are probably right about the need for other skills, the track seems to be showing up some serious errors in my riding which is the reason for going on the L1 & 2 courses next year.

[Cobie Fair]

I have allotted time / money to do level 1&2 early next year (once your schedule is out) but reading the web site this seems to be something you look at in level 3. Would I benefit from using stompgrip or is this something much more fundamental than that?

 

OK, you are going to get a lot of help on this subject at both level 1 and 2. The thing is, there are several substantial pieces to this, its not one quick, simple answer (how to be stable on the bike, and deliver what the bike needs). I'm not going to just be flip and give you a quick answer, as it wouldn't be correct, or complete.

 

If you could even get to level 1 this year, it would help a lot.

 

Stomp grip for sure does help, allows one to hold on to the bike with the legs.

 

There are a few reasons that a lot of lean angle and tire can be used (body position is only 1, and often not the most critical) it is really a major source of the training, sorting this issue out. The chapters on steering in Twist 2 will give you some insight to this, that would be something you could do right away. Do you have Twist 2?

 

Best,

Cobie

[pbrown]

I have allotted time / money to do level 1&2 early next year (once your schedule is out) but reading the web site this seems to be something you look at in level 3. Would I benefit from using stompgrip or is this something much more fundamental than that?

 

OK, you are going to get a lot of help on this subject at both level 1 and 2. The thing is, there are several substantial pieces to this, its not one quick, simple answer (how to be stable on the bike, and deliver what the bike needs). I'm not going to just be flip and give you a quick answer, as it wouldn't be correct, or complete.

 

If you could even get to level 1 this year, it would help a lot.

 

Stomp grip for sure does help, allows one to hold on to the bike with the legs.

 

There are a few reasons that a lot of lean angle and tire can be used (body position is only 1, and often not the most critical) it is really a major source of the training, sorting this issue out. The chapters on steering in Twist 2 will give you some insight to this, that would be something you could do right away. Do you have Twist 2?

 

Best,

Cobie

 

Hi Cobie,

 

The only level 1 I could get to this year would be in October & then my bike would be put away for winter which is why I was going for early next year so I could practice straignt after the course without forgetting.

 

OK I have twist 2 so I will re read the chapters on steering & practice that, so is it worth forgetting about the hanging off for now & just go with the steering in twist 2?

 

Cheers

Paul

[2bigalow]

woops forgot to paste the link.

 

Here it is. http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=1003

[squirrels]

For what it's worth, you can't practice "hanging off" from a standstill. The G-forces on the bike in motion are different. Because the bike is leaned over, gravity is not "straight down", and the centrifugal force of cornering also factors in.

 

In other words, you'll never feel comfortable hanging off a stationary bike. I've practiced "hanging off" on bikes in dealerships, but only while putting a hand out to brace myself against the bike next to me. BTW...it freaks them out when you do that.

 

Don't think of it as "hanging off". Work up to it...start by just leaning a shoulder off the side of the bike. Then let your butt slide some, and get off it a little more aech time out until you're comfortable.

 

But everyone else is correct. As long as you're not sitting "up on top" the bike, there are other things that can be causing you to use a lot of lean angle. Where and how you turn in makes the biggest difference. Not gonna go into too much more detail, but Keith's books and CSS Lvl1 cover it.

[pbrown]

woops forgot to paste the link.

 

Here it is. http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=1003

 

Thanks, reading it now & it has some interesting points.

 

But everyone else is correct. As long as you're not sitting "up on top" the bike, there are other things that can be causing you to use a lot of lean angle. Where and how you turn in makes the biggest difference. Not gonna go into too much more detail, but Keith's books and CSS Lvl1 cover it.

So basically don't get fixated on hanging off but get the other bits right first - I will try this at the next trackday.

[hubbard_28]

I go in with the goal of keeping the bike up to maximize my speed, and work on my body position to help maintain proper weight and compression on the bike. I'm slowly reading Twist 2, but my job requires lots of continuous learning, so I'm sure I'll be able to refine my positioning and even attitude the further I get through the book.

[nzbiker]

I go in with the goal of keeping the bike up to maximize my speed, and work on my body position to help maintain proper weight and compression on the bike. I'm slowly reading Twist 2, but my job requires lots of continuous learning, so I'm sure I'll be able to refine my positioning and even attitude the further I get through the book.

 

In the mean time try this:

 

1. move back in the seat first before moving to the hang off position-this will prevent the upper body twist and also gives better weight distribution for braking.

2. Have 1 knee in contact with the tank at all times eg if you are hanging off to the left and want to move to the right move yre left knee to the tank first then move your body weight, no weight on arms (its all about how you use the lower body with no induced steering input the handle bars)

3. inside turning elbow positioned below handle bar, no weight on arms

4. inside foot tucked in on ball of foot, outside foot weighting peg on arch of foot

5. Get in hang off position before turn and turn fast as you can for the speed and traction(you'll have to be the judge of this)

6. Get on Power ASAP into turn.

7. Get on to the mid third section of the tire to drive out

 

and if the suspension is sprung properly you should not have any clearance problems and be able to judge lean angle by scrapin yre knee

[Cobie Fair]

I go in with the goal of keeping the bike up to maximize my speed, and work on my body position to help

4. inside foot tucked in on ball of foot, outside foot weighting peg on arch of foot

 

One comment on this item, #4: I can't do it this way, my legs are too short. I've got to put the ball of my foot on the peg, and actually flex it upwards. Maybe with really tall rearsets it could work, but not on a stock bike.

 

Any others on tihs?

 

C

[hubbard_28]

1. move back in the seat first before moving to the hang off position-this will prevent the upper body twist and also gives better weight distribution for braking.

2. Have 1 knee in contact with the tank at all times eg if you are hanging off to the left and want to move to the right move yre left knee to the tank first then move your body weight, no weight on arms (its all about how you use the lower body with no induced steering input the handle bars)

3. inside turning elbow positioned below handle bar, no weight on arms

4. inside foot tucked in on ball of foot, outside foot weighting peg on arch of foot

5. Get in hang off position before turn and turn fast as you can for the speed and traction(you'll have to be the judge of this)

6. Get on Power ASAP into turn.

7. Get on to the mid third section of the tire to drive out

 

and if the suspension is sprung properly you should not have any clearance problems and be able to judge lean angle by scrapin yre knee

 

1. I've just figured this out. Most of what I've read as far as where to have my butt includes putting lots of weight on the front tire, so I was always up front. On my twice a day corner (sweeping corner that allows me to work on body position once on the way to work, and once coming back) I tried moving my butt back and was too comfortable to go back to my old form, so I'm refining it to fit me better.

2. I know I'm probably doing something wrong, but while I do keep my outside knee on the tank, I'm bent so far off the bike, my inside heel is touching my butt. It's comfortable and effective, so I'm not worried about it.

3. Something I definitely need to work on. I keep forgetting about it.

 

5. I've read that it is a big difference in how fast an amateur vs. pro can get that bike over. My one strong point is hard braking, and I can pop into position really fast.

6. I have a lot of responsibility right now, and although I do get on it, don't want to do anything too risky. The top riders at Firebird East are doing 0:57 to 1:01, and I will be perfectly happy doing 1:05 consistently once I get there (1:10's now). That's one area I work on, but am not too keen on a free flight.

 

I have some friends going to help me with suspension at the next trackday, and although I have the front feeling fine, and going to adjust it some, and have done nothing on the front.

Thanks for the pointers.

[nzbiker]

I go in with the goal of keeping the bike up to maximize my speed, and work on my body position to help

4. inside foot tucked in on ball of foot, outside foot weighting peg on arch of foot

 

One comment on this item, #4: I can't do it this way, my legs are too short. I've got to put the ball of my foot on the peg, and actually flex it upwards. Maybe with really tall rearsets it could work, but not on a stock bike.

 

Any others on tihs?

 

C

 

Thats how I used to do it too, have found using the arch on yre outside foot on the peg with the heel turning inward sets a better anchor between the peg and tank.

Yeah im not that tall either and was using the upmost position on adjustable rearset.

[pbrown]

I go in with the goal of keeping the bike up to maximize my speed, and work on my body position to help

4. inside foot tucked in on ball of foot, outside foot weighting peg on arch of foot

 

One comment on this item, #4: I can't do it this way, my legs are too short. I've got to put the ball of my foot on the peg, and actually flex it upwards. Maybe with really tall rearsets it could work, but not on a stock bike.

 

Any others on tihs?

 

C

 

Thats how I used to do it too, have found using the arch on yre outside foot on the peg with the heel turning inward sets a better anchor between the peg and tank.

Yeah im not that tall either and was using the upmost position on adjustable rearset.

 

The more I have checked the leaning off it seems that I am not managing to lock my knee in effectively which is making my upper body unstable & start swinging which is the reason I keep bringing my inner knee into the tank to try to gain more grip / control.

 

So how fast do you quick turn & do you need your knee as a gauge before you do quick turning? Am I right in thinking that the fast turning has to coincide with later corner entry or can that be countered by less lean?

[Cobie Fair]

 

Thats how I used to do it too, have found using the arch on yre outside foot on the peg with the heel turning inward sets a better anchor between the peg and tank.

Yeah im not that tall either and was using the upmost position on adjustable rearset.

 

The more I have checked the leaning off it seems that I am not managing to lock my knee in effectively which is making my upper body unstable & start swinging which is the reason I keep bringing my inner knee into the tank to try to gain more grip / control.

 

So how fast do you quick turn & do you need your knee as a gauge before you do quick turning? Am I right in thinking that the fast turning has to coincide with later corner entry or can that be countered by less lean?

 

Quick turning can be done at any time, no hanging off needed. If you quick turn, can you have a later corner entry? Is that a plus? Will you lean it less if you quick turn? (the complete answers are in Twist 2, but maybe you've already seen that?).

 

Cobie

[pbrown]

Quick turning can be done at any time, no hanging off needed. If you quick turn, can you have a later corner entry? Is that a plus? Will you lean it less if you quick turn? (the complete answers are in Twist 2, but maybe you've already seen that?).

 

Cobie

Later corner entry - only time it's a plus is if I am too early into the corner & I guess the limit to this will be either SR driven or getting it correct for my drive thru' the turn.

OK so by quick turning I will get less lean so can be safer or go faster still & more likely to get on throttle earlier. So I need to practice quick turning, is it possible for me to turn too quickly or is that unlikely because of SR's? I guess I need some reasonably open corners for this just in case. I guess I could be doing a lot of mid corner steering changes before I get this one cracked.

[Cobie Fair]

Later corner entry - only time it's a plus is if I am too early into the corner & I guess the limit to this will be either SR driven or getting it correct for my drive thru' the turn.

OK so by quick turning I will get less lean so can be safer or go faster still & more likely to get on throttle earlier. So I need to practice quick turning, is it possible for me to turn too quickly or is that unlikely because of SR's? I guess I need some reasonably open corners for this just in case. I guess I could be doing a lot of mid corner steering changes before I get this one cracked.

 

This technique can be done anywhere, it's nice to practice on a track, as one can really set a line that will allow no mid-turn corrections (not always possible on a street ride).

 

Your question on can you turn it too quickly--were you referring to the SR's that generates or loosing traction, or something else? I just went and thumbed through T-2. There are some nice comments on this subject (I'm assuming you have Twist 2) by Doug Chandler in the margins on pages 70-75, might want to just check those out.

 

Please clarify the part of your question for me (on turning too quickly) we can get that answered.

 

Best,

Cobie

[Cobie Fair]

Forum experts: OK, how come sometimes when I quote/reply to someone it puts their quote in a box, and sometimes not?

 

Best,

C

[pbrown]

Your question on can you turn it too quickly--were you referring to the SR's that generates or loosing traction, or something else? I just went and thumbed through T-2. There are some nice comments on this subject (I'm assuming you have Twist 2) by Doug Chandler in the margins on pages 70-75, might want to just check those out.

 

Please clarify the part of your question for me (on turning too quickly) we can get that answered.

 

Best,

Cobie

It was the thought of turning too quick & loosing traction. I see on page 75 Doug C says ,he thinks you could never turn too quick to loose the front etc.' but is that based on his ability & GP bike setup or Mr. Average's ability & setup. The question about the SR's was whether you have to battle your quick turn SR's so much that you would never turn so quickly as to loose the front.

Am I best to practice quick turns on 1 particular corner until I get it speeded up or all corners & is it best to keep the same entry speed & keep reducing the lean as the steering gets quicker?

Regards

Paul

[racer]

Forum experts: OK, how come sometimes when I quote/reply to someone it puts their quote in a box, and sometimes not?

 

Best,

C

 

Hi Cobie,

 

The basic BB Code form for quoting is:

to open and [/quote ] to close. The difference between the open and close is the forward slash preceding the word "quote" in the closing. The slash denotes closing in whatever form you are using, ie. italics, boldface, etc. In my example above, I left an extra space after the word "quote" so it wouldn't activate the feature and you could see the difference. When using the code you will need to eliminate that extra space to make it work. Each quote must be opened and closed individually. In your above post (#17 in the thread), your opening quote had a slash, so it didn't work.

 

If you click on the "BB Code Help" button at the lower right of the posting/editing field, you will find some other frequently used BB Code forms. You can also click on the "Reply button to see the codes used by other posters spelled out as it were. For instance, you can see how to add names, post number and date/time stamps to the opening quote code that the software adds automatically. I've been meaning to drop you a note to point it out to you. Sorry I didn't get to it sooner.

 

Regards,

Bill

[Cobie Fair]

It was the thought of turning too quick & loosing traction. I see on page 75 Doug C says ,he thinks you could never turn too quick to loose the front etc.' but is that based on his ability & GP bike setup or Mr. Average's ability & setup. The question about the SR's was whether you have to battle your quick turn SR's so much that you would never turn so quickly as to loose the front.

Am I best to practice quick turns on 1 particular corner until I get it speeded up or all corners & is it best to keep the same entry speed & keep reducing the lean as the steering gets quicker?

Regards

Paul

 

Paul--as the starting point, it's good to know, can the bike be turned too quickly, from the viewpoint of a top rider? Any skill level below that won't isn't going to do more would they? Can a person have a problem with their survival reactions by turning it too quick?you bet (we work on this quite a bit at the school). Could Mr. Average turn the bike too quickly?--one could punch the bars, and that would upset the bike, but typically when riders turn it quicker they often turn it too much, not the same thing. We work on this a lot too.

 

There are a few things to consider when practicing turning it quickly: warm the tires up! That is done by working them in the turns, gradually increasing the speed. Have good tires! Smoking discount for students if you didn't already know that (shameless plug here). Braking and turning quickly at the same, that can ask too much from the tires.

 

Let me know if this answered your questions or not.

 

Best,

Cobie

[Cobie Fair]

Hi Cobie,

 

If you click on the "BB Code Help" button at the lower right of the posting/editing field, you will find some other frequently used BB Code forms. You can also click on the "Reply button to see the codes used by other posters spelled out as it were. For instance, you can see how to add names, post numbers and date/time stamps to the opening quote code that the software adds automatically. I've been meaning to drop you a note to point it out to you. Sorry I didn't get to it sooner.

 

Regards,

Bill

 

Thanks Bill, that helps!

 

C

[acebobby]

Could Mr. Average turn the bike too quickly?--one could punch the bars, and that would upset the bike, but typically when riders turn it quicker they often turn it too much, not the same thing. We work on this a lot too.

 

 

Best,

Cobie

 

By punching the bars do you mean this literally? like removing your hand from the bar then hitting it with the palm of your hand unsettling the bike.

The way I practice quick turns is to approach the turn point then firmly push the inside bar and relax immediately, I find that doing the 2 step drill stops me from turning too much, though I still feel that I should be steering even quicker! Im always practicing!

[Cobie Fair]

Could Mr. Average turn the bike too quickly?--one could punch the bars, and that would upset the bike, but

 

By punching the bars do you mean this literally? like removing your hand from the bar then hitting it with the palm of your hand unsettling the bike.

The way I practice quick turns is to approach the turn point then firmly push the inside bar and relax immediately, I find that doing the 2 step drill stops me from turning too much, though I still feel that I should be steering even quicker! Im always practicing!

 

Some guys really do hit the bar too hard, that of course would be a mistake. And, your use of the 2-step == excellent!

 

Steering it quicker is a big skill, one of the top ones I think. I worked on it as my prime area for improvement for a long time (and certianly still pay attention to it like any skill).

 

C

[acebobby]

Some guys really do hit the bar too hard, that of course would be a mistake. And, your use of the 2-step == excellent!

 

Steering it quicker is a big skill, one of the top ones I think. I worked on it as my prime area for improvement for a long time (and certianly still pay attention to it like any skill).

 

C

 

Thanks Cobie, it is good to know that what I am practicing is correct, I do spend alot of attention on this at the moment trying to gradually turn faster all the time!

 

atb

Bobby