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Maximum Braking Effect


Jaybird180

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wow. that thread brings back some memories. has it really been 3-4 years already...

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Hubbard: i'm just catching up on this thread, but the clutch shouldn't come out slowly. A correct simultanenous brake and downshift is both smooth and easy on the engine and the entire drive line. A incorrect one is hard on the components: clutch, engine, etc. In fact, it is the one sure way that an engine can be over-revved>

 

The engine is not designed as a brake. Rolling off the throttle to slow down is one thing: stomping down the gear box and letting the clutch out to slow the bike down (not using the brakes), is another.

 

This is one of the more difficult things we have to train: it's the single most complicated action of motorcycle riding--correctly braking and downshifting.

 

Just to mix it up here a little: if the timing is correct, the braking and downshifting can even be done without the clutch--WITH NO ILL EFFECTS ON THE MOTORCYCLE.

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Just to mix it up here a little: if the timing is correct, the braking and downshifting can even be done without the clutch--WITH NO ILL EFFECTS ON THE MOTORCYCLE.

 

 

I got told from an ex racer that a good time to do that would be when you come to the end of a straight, just when you close the throttle and apply the brake you should do a clutchless down shift! Is this correct?

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Just to mix it up here a little: if the timing is correct, the braking and downshifting can even be done without the clutch--WITH NO ILL EFFECTS ON THE MOTORCYCLE.

 

 

I got told from an ex racer that a good time to do that would be when you come to the end of a straight, just when you close the throttle and apply the brake you should do a clutchless down shift! Is this correct?

 

It can be done at any time. I don't use the clutch, up or down, haven't for a few years, neither do a number of my other coaches. There are only a few "don'ts" on the clutchless downshifts: don't hold constant pressure against the shift lever, and don't stomp it in gear if you get a false neutral.

 

I don't use it on my street riding either. I think it is good to know how to use the clutch, in case you do need it.

 

CF

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Hi Hub,

 

OK...

 

You said you are having some difficulty with the throttle blipping. I don't know if you mean specifically blipping the throttle at the same time you are using the brake or just the basic skill of blipping while downshifting in the first place. But, I can offer some helpful hints that I hope will be, well, helpful.

 

If your difficulty stems from the act of trying to brake and blip at the same time, maintaining even brake pressure while blipping, the basic trick is to use only two fingers on the brake lever and to let them slide back and forth over the lever as you blip the throttle with your last two fingers and thumb on the throttle. This definitely takes some practice, so, don't give up. And wearing gloves definitely helps.

 

If you are having difficulty with blipping to match revs in the first place, then I suggest practicing downshifts without the brake to really get the hang of it first, before learning to add the brake later. Once you understand the how and why of the process, knowing when and how much to blip requires a certain degree of "touch" or "feel". Practice makes perfect. Don't give up. IMO, this is the most important foundational skill for a rider to master.

 

So, using the long straightaway as an example, the best or proper procedure to follow when decelerating in preparation for the corner is to roll off the throttle and apply the brake, leaving the bike in gear and the clutch 'engaged'. Toward the end of your braking is the time to execute any downshifts that may be required. For a number of reasons, you do not want to downshift early to use the engine as a brake. Selecting the proper gear for your road speed is the last thing you want to do before turning in and accelerating again.

 

If you have any questions, please ask. I'm glad to clarify anything I've said or try to help with anything I haven't covered.

 

racer

 

I try to avoid rear braking like the plague! The rear brake should have a sign on it or contained in glass with a hammer "For Emergency Use Only!" My foot on the rear brake has been a reaction to a situation which I do not like and regulating the amount of pressure to prevent rear in slide is not something that I have concentrated on. So for me, using the rear brake is problematic. I use a Brembo master cylinder and 320mm galfer rotors on the front. I have the bike geared for the tracks I ride and thanks to some help from Cobie, I have become proficient at blipping the throttle. It makes all the diffrerence in the world.

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Alright, I've read the sticky from Keith as well as the other posts, and guess I just don't get it. I'm trying to see how my method is incorrect, and I'm NOT trying to be argumentative, but in truth I accelerate in my car with my right foot, and brake with my left (in an automatic car) without any problems, when I have been told that I was going to end up having an accident.

I've been dying to go to the superbike school, and know that this is one of the bigger reasons I need to attend. Lost Lost Lost.

I'm not going to even try working on it this weekend during a trackday, but am not riding the track the week after that, and am heading toward the parking lot to work on blipping.

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Perhaps the concept escapes you (you're not the only one, you're just brave enough to admit it).

 

Blipping has but ONE PURPOSE and one alone: to match engine revs to rotational speed of the rear tire once the gear change has been executed.

 

That means, that when you change gears, up or down, you somehow have to get the engine rpm in a "range" where it will not break traction.

 

In most cases, blipping will only need to be done while downshifting prior to turn in; can't think of a reason to do it on an upshift as there's little to no risk of breaking traction with slower turning rpm.

 

With that said, the only reason to downshift is to allow the rider to DRIVE through the turn, increasing gas immediately after turn in and direction change.

 

The concept can often get lost due to it's association with the obsolete term engine braking. The rider, desirous of slowing to set corner entry speed rolls off the gas. The engine is attempting to reduce rpm in spite of getting back-torque from the drive train. The rider then applies front brake to reduce speed. In a non-racing situation he can turn-in and suffer with low-rpm for the drive out, which is okay. But for the "trackday racer" he wants to maintain momentum and the rush of the drive.

 

Knowing that his rpm will be too low for an effective drive through the turn and at exit, he executes a gear change to put the engine rpm back into it's sweet spot. If he doesn't match rpm, the rear tire will hop, and so for the split second that the clutch is pulled, he raises engine rpm (blips), releases the clutch and the rpm/wheelspeed relationship is maintained.

 

Hope this helps. You could learn this on your own, or you can use CSSs Control Trainer. I don't recommend parking lot practice. It would be best if you could see someone do it, then mimic.

 

Honestly, I do it (blip) and it only costs a few pennies, but I don't think I could if I were standing still and focusing on it.

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Jaybird--nice response, clearly written.

 

Hubbard: it can take a bit to get used to this, and get good at it, but when you do, it will not take up a lot of attention (as Jaybird mentions).

 

The easiest way to begin this is don't even worry about braking, just get used to the blipping part. Try that as the first step, and if you ahve a good sized parking lot, should be OK.

 

Let us know how that goes.

 

Best,

Cobie

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I get it now....he's free wheeling!!!

That's where the disconnect is. He free wheels while braking, then changes gears and eases out the clutch.

 

Actually in his mind, (and in practice) blipping isn't required as the clutch plates pay for the difference in speed with premature wear.

 

It's a choice that's he's free to make. I think I read in that article that EBoz also uses the clutch slip technique. I just had rather not think about the clutch modulation required to use this technique nor the loud clunks of my tranny changing gear....then there's the cool factor of blipping revs going by spectators on the brakes just before turn-in.

 

This sport is so cool. More than one way to remove the dermis from a feline. :-)

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I get it now....he's free wheeling!!!

 

This sport is so cool. More than one way to remove the dermis from a feline. :-)

 

By "freewheeling" you mean holding the clutch in?

 

CF

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I get it now....he's free wheeling!!!

 

This sport is so cool. More than one way to remove the dermis from a feline. :-)

 

By "freewheeling" you mean holding the clutch in?

 

CF

Sounds like that to me.

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I get it now....he's free wheeling!!!

 

This sport is so cool. More than one way to remove the dermis from a feline. :-)

 

By "freewheeling" you mean holding the clutch in?

 

CF

Sounds like that to me.

 

Hey Hubbard--are you just holding the clutch in while you downshift?

 

CF

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I get it now....he's free wheeling!!!

 

This sport is so cool. More than one way to remove the dermis from a feline. :-)

 

By "freewheeling" you mean holding the clutch in?

 

CF

Sounds like that to me.

 

Hey Hubbard--are you just holding the clutch in while you downshift?

 

CF

I have plenty of room right by my house to work on this. I will let you guys know how it goes. I'll put in steps, if I can, how I get into a corner on East, which is 4th to 2nd gear.

 

On the straight I pop into 4th for maybe couple seconds, get a good twist, and get ready to downshift.

I clamp onto the tank, pull in the clutch and start on the brake at about the same time. I do this between the 3 and 4 cone.

I downshift from 4th to 2nd while I'm squeezing the brakes.

As I brake, I let the clutch out slowly using the engine to help me decelerate, having it completely out by the 2 cone.

I'm back on the throttle before the clutch is all the way out to maintain speed and turn about 5 feet past the 1 cone.

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I have plenty of room right by my house to work on this. I will let you guys know how it goes. I'll put in steps, if I can, how I get into a corner on East, which is 4th to 2nd gear.

 

On the straight I pop into 4th for maybe couple seconds, get a good twist, and get ready to downshift.

I clamp onto the tank, pull in the clutch and start on the brake at about the same time. I do this between the 3 and 4 cone.

I downshift from 4th to 2nd while I'm squeezing the brakes.

As I brake, I let the clutch out slowly using the engine to help me decelerate, having it completely out by the 2 cone.

I'm back on the throttle before the clutch is all the way out to maintain speed and turn about 5 feet past the 1 cone.

 

OK--so, one reason that the clutch should come out between each shift is one is not sure, 100% sure, that the bike went down 1 gear, and 1 gear only. The standard is to let the clutch out between each shift. Sometimes it won't go down, and it has happened where it's gone down more than 1 gear.

 

The blip (quick on/off of the throttle), matches the speed of the engine to the speed of the rear wheel, so the rear tire doesn't lock up, or the clutch being let out very slowly (which is distracting).

 

How about just practicing the blip, and don't even worry about the braking at first. Get a piece of road, accelerate up to 4th, then just pull in the clutch and blip the throttle--don't even worry about downshifting to start, just get the blip done.

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Related to this, I was experimenting with clutchless downshifting. I pretty much do clutchless upshifting all the time, except sometimes from 1st to 2nd. But for downshifting I was having more difficulty. It seems, at least on my bike ('02 CBR600F4i), that I need to give a little bit of throttle to get positive power flow through the transmission before it will downshift. Has anyone else experienced this? (I think this had something to do with how I inadvertently hit the kill switch causing my crash last track day.) The problem is this ends up taking more time and coordination than just normal clutch shifting. I worry about downshifting too much and causing wheel lock up though so I don't do it and then come out of corners in too high of a gear and thus don't get a good drive.

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Clutchless downshifting works well, and can be done completely smoothley. You for sure do have to give it a little blip, that unweights the transmission for a moment, and you can make the downshift.

 

With rare excpetion, I have been doing this for years, and so have other coaches at the school. It not only (I think) is easier on the rider, it is no harm to the bike (with the 2 provisios stated before--don't preload the shift lever, don't stomp it into gear if one gets a false neurtral). It can take a little practice to get the timing right, so there is not surging, but learnable for sure.

 

CF

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Clutchless downshifting works well, and can be done completely smoothley. You for sure do have to give it a little blip, that unweights the transmission for a moment, and you can make the downshift.

 

With rare excpetion, I have been doing this for years, and so have other coaches at the school. It not only (I think) is easier on the rider, it is no harm to the bike (with the 2 provisios stated before--don't preload the shift lever, don't stomp it into gear if one gets a false neurtral). It can take a little practice to get the timing right, so there is not surging, but learnable for sure.

 

CF

 

Good info. I will work on learning this- something I can work on outside of the track!

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Cobie,

What do you mean by easier on the rider? Can you explain the benefits in learning this?

 

The short version is: the control actions are the same--excpet there is one less to do! Simultaneous braking and downshifting is the single most complicated action in riding a motorcycle. It can come at a very busy time for a rider, while entering a turn, has to set his speed, location, deal with traffic, hit his turn in point, get ready to look into the turn--this gets busy. So, eliminating a whole action, simpler for the rider, don't you think?

 

Best,

CF

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Cobie,

What do you mean by easier on the rider? Can you explain the benefits in learning this?

 

The short version is: the control actions are the same--excpet there is one less to do! Simultaneous braking and downshifting is the single most complicated action in riding a motorcycle. It can come at a very busy time for a rider, while entering a turn, has to set his speed, location, deal with traffic, hit his turn in point, get ready to look into the turn--this gets busy. So, eliminating a whole action, simpler for the rider, don't you think?

 

Best,

CF

The theory sounds good. The idea of not having to use the clutch to downshift...I suppose it could be a timesaver. Since you've been doing it, does it free up some of your mental money? Clutchless upshifting has worked well for me with my GP shift configuration. I seem to only be able to clutchless down while coming to a full stop at a light, low rpm. And then it doesn't seem right for my F4i's tranny .

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I was working on it on the way back from the bike shop. I didn't remember to do it on the way there. It was pretty smooth. I worked up to 6th gear, started downshifting until I was in 3rd at about 80 mph's. It was alright, but I have a couple questions.

1. If I'm going down one gear, do I brake, blip, and then enter the corner?

2. Are you kidding me that I need to learn to do it in a double downshift entry?!

 

I spoke with the mechanic while I was at the shop, and he said it messes up the transmission after a while. He said blip while downshifting. Sound about right? It's what I did on the way home, and seemed to be alright.

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Hey Hub,

 

Like Cobie and I said, learn to blip first. Then you can learn how to add the braking later.

 

Blipping is all about downshifting smoothly.

 

And, yes, Cobie is right... once you get the hang of matching rev's (blipping) with the clutch, you can learn to do it without the clutch, but, that's a more advanced skill. Best not to worry about that now.

 

Please read the previous posts and Keith's lessons again carefully. All the info is in there. I posted the exact order:

 

Clutch in. Blip. Shift. Clutch out. Execute quickly in one smooth motion.

 

(Try preloading the shifter very lightly to get a feel for the timing)

 

And DON'T try learning to do it at 80 mph in 3rd gear, for God's sake!!!

 

It is MUCH easier to learn below the power band where the rev difference between gears is smaller.

 

Blipping is all about smooth downshifting. The point is to match the engine rev's to the next/new gear. Like Cobie and I said, you can learn to add the brake later. Focus on learning to downshift smoothly for now. It's a primary foundational skill that is critical for everything else that follows. Once you get good at it, then you can worry about what comes next.

 

r

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Hmmmm....this concept of downshifting w/o braking sounds fishy to me, at least for the street rider. Unless you suggesting that he ride somewhere that would allow the time for the off-throttle action to slow the bike enough so that when the downshift is executed it doesn't bump the rev limiter (or worse).

 

Hubbard- Yes, always as a rule, execute one full downshift (including releasing the clutch) per downshift. Once you learn it well, you can brake and bang 3 successive downshifts and then turn-in. It's so sweet that it'll give you [iNSERT OWN IDEAS HERE].

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Lots of good stuff up here, tiny re-cap of a few things:

 

1. Timed correctly, it will not mess up your transmission. Every bike Will and I own has been ridden this way for years, no problems (and many other bikes and riders too).

2. Start at an easy speed, no need to go fast. The up and the downshifting can be done at any RPM virtually. I'm often in 4, 5th at 3k riding around town, not using the clutch at all.

3. Can pre-load the shift lever a little, but don't do it for a long time.

4. Leaning to do it with the clutch might be best in the long run. Like Racer pointed out, start with the blipping. I have had 2 students that struggled a little doing it with the clutch, did it w/out and thought it easier.

 

Let us know what happens.

 

CF

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Hmmmm....this concept of downshifting w/o braking sounds fishy to me, at least for the street rider. Unless you suggesting that he ride somewhere that would allow the time for the off-throttle action to slow the bike enough so that when the downshift is executed it doesn't bump the rev limiter (or worse).

 

There's nothing fishy about it, Jay. Cobie and I aren't talking about racing. First, we're talking about learning how to downshift properly. And, there are plenty of instances during normal street riding when downshifting doesn't include hard braking or riding in the powerband. I don't follow what you mean about bouncing off the rev limiter. MOST normal street riding doesn't happen near redline at all. And the proper blip/downshift happens when you need to raise the revs back up into a usable rev range. The properly executed blip only goes far enough to engage the next gear. Why would it ever hit the rev limiter? Regardless, for this instance, learning to blip/downshift, the bike is already slowed before practicing the blip/shift.

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