# Hello All....

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Guys--we are posting at the same time, that keeps it interesting. A reminder that this is a friendly discussion, let's keep it polite.

Regarding being off the throttle, at turn in: doesn't the bike turn better when off throttle? Front compressed, steeper steering angle, more weight on the front, it turns better than with no weight on it, no?

CF

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Guys--we are posting at the same time, that keeps it interesting. A reminder that this is a friendly discussion, let's keep it polite.

Regarding being off the throttle, at turn in: doesn't the bike turn better when off throttle? Front compressed, steeper steering angle, more weight on the front, it turns better than with no weight on it, no?

CF

Yes, but the maximum traction available for cornering forces is reduced, no?

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OK, back to one of the points on having the throttle on when entering a turn, and my question: will the bike hold the line, or run a wider at turn entry? It runs wide doesn't it? The more throttle, the wider it would run. That running wide at turn entry, won't it have to be "paid for" later in the turn with more lean angle added?

Anyone want to bite on that?

C

If the throttle is off at any point while the bike is moving forward, it will decelerate. PERIOD. With throttle, the rider can maintain a pre-determined entry speed with view of turn-in point and apex. Lean angle is then easy to determine. With the weight distributed f/r, the rider can be more aggressive (I would think) with the steering input for the given available traction. I think the lean angle cost is the result of the forward inertia of the bike, not as much a factor of the gyro forces trying to keep the machine upright (flame suit on).

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http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=540

12. Coordinating the exact roll on to stabilize the bike at the brake off/quick flick point. When you drop a bike into a turn quickly there is an optimum opening of the throttle, which maintains good stability through that transition. The focus on this is to see if you can grab the right amount of throttle right away to get that instant stability.

-Keith Code

I see what you mean. That is a potentially confusing statement and probably could have been written better.

I would say that the "transition" Keith is speaking of is from 'off' throttle to 'on' throttle.

Not from straight line to leaned over.

But, I will let Keith speak for himself.

#4 is the statement you're looking for "4. Reducing the lag between off brakes and on gas. The moment you release the brake there will be a lag as you orient yourself to the speed you have. Focusing on that lag can shorten it."

I made a little ditty for myself. Here's the expanded version: Off gas, Brake and shift, Look, Gas, Steer, Roll out. IMHO the gap Keith refers to is in my "look".

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#4 is the statement you're looking for "4. Reducing the lag between off brakes and on gas. The moment you release the brake there will be a lag as you orient yourself to the speed you have. Focusing on that lag can shorten it."

I made a little ditty for myself. Here's the expanded version: Off gas, Brake and shift, Look, Gas, Steer, Roll out. IMHO the gap Keith refers to is in my "look".

JB,

Doing the gas before the steering--this can cause problems, and we work on fixing them at the school all the time. There is a too early on the throttle mate.

C

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#4 is the statement you're looking for "4. Reducing the lag between off brakes and on gas. The moment you release the brake there will be a lag as you orient yourself to the speed you have. Focusing on that lag can shorten it."

I made a little ditty for myself. Here's the expanded version: Off gas, Brake and shift, Look, Gas, Steer, Roll out. IMHO the gap Keith refers to is in my "look".

JB,

Doing the gas before the steering--this can cause problems, and we work on fixing them at the school all the time. There is a too early on the throttle mate.

C

Okay, how about....change "gas" to "maintain entry speed with a leeetle gas". (LOL)

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#4 is the statement you're looking for "4. Reducing the lag between off brakes and on gas. The moment you release the brake there will be a lag as you orient yourself to the speed you have. Focusing on that lag can shorten it."

I made a little ditty for myself. Here's the expanded version: Off gas, Brake and shift, Look, Gas, Steer, Roll out. IMHO the gap Keith refers to is in my "look".

JB,

Doing the gas before the steering--this can cause problems, and we work on fixing them at the school all the time. There is a too early on the throttle mate.

C

Okay, how about....change "gas" to "maintain entry speed with a leeetle gas". (LOL)

Except for the turns that one enters with the gas already on (like a faster turn following a slower one), it's the standard action to be off it all the way. A major skill is how quickly the bike can be turned, and that gets comprimised with not enough weight on the front.

C

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http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=540

12. Coordinating the exact roll on to stabilize the bike at the brake off/quick flick point. When you drop a bike into a turn quickly there is an optimum opening of the throttle, which maintains good stability through that transition. The focus on this is to see if you can grab the right amount of throttle right away to get that instant stability.

-Keith Code

I see what you mean. That is a potentially confusing statement and probably could have been written better.

I would say that the "transition" Keith is speaking of is from 'off' throttle to 'on' throttle.

Not from straight line to leaned over.

But, I will let Keith speak for himself.

#4 is the statement you're looking for "4. Reducing the lag between off brakes and on gas. The moment you release the brake there will be a lag as you orient yourself to the speed you have. Focusing on that lag can shorten it."

I made a little ditty for myself. Here's the expanded version: Off gas, Brake and shift, Look, Gas, Steer, Roll out. IMHO the gap Keith refers to is in my "look".

Try this ditty: Off gas, Brake and shift, Look, Steer, Roll on.

The gap is between Steer and Roll on.

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Except for the turns that one enters with the gas already on (like a faster turn following a slower one), it's the standard action to be off it all the way. A major skill is how quickly the bike can be turned, and that gets comprimised with not enough weight on the front.

C

I'm glad you said that. It is one idea, and is the way I had been riding since I can remember. I hadn't decided to try something new UNTIL.....getting on this forum.

My experience with turning while on the gas has been encouraging. My cornerspeed has improved, my ability to predict and hold line has improved, my desire to trail brake is diminishing, I am not afraid to roll the throttle midcorner. My mind is free of distractions like drive train lash and throttle abruptness. I've had positive results. However...

I am open and willing to better ideas. It is however, important for me to conceptualize what to do before attempting to apply it, which is why I enjoy this forum.

I've pointed out references to support my idea, both from an article written by Keith Code. Can you please point out to me either:

1- The flaw in Keith's writing

2- A competing idea

3- Something that sheds light on what you say that clarifies the misunderstanding that I may have about this

Thanks.

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Cobie, Racer,

Def. get what you are sayin and agree. That is what I do, just was kinda thinkin about it in a different way I guess. When I read "off gas, brake downshitft, look, turn, roll on" it came to me and I realized I was kinda thinkin that but that wasn't really what I said in my earlier post. For some reason I had this idea you were saying that you were off the throttle to the apex. But that wouldn't quite be a quick flick. Maybe Jaybird is thinkin the same way I was.

Derek

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Cobie, Racer,

Def. get what you are sayin and agree. That is what I do, just was kinda thinkin about it in a different way I guess. When I read "off gas, brake downshitft, look, turn, roll on" it came to me and I realized I was kinda thinkin that but that wasn't really what I said in my earlier post. For some reason I had this idea you were saying that you were off the throttle to the apex. But that wouldn't quite be a quick flick. Maybe Jaybird is thinkin the same way I was.

Derek

Hi Derek,

"Quick flick" refers to the steering action alone. It means using really positive effort at the handlebars to countersteer the bike and lean it over quickly rather than being lazy about it and just sort of leaning into the turn.

Ideally, I am back on the gas well before the apex of a turn.

racer

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Try this ditty: Off gas, Brake and shift, Look, Steer, Roll on.

The gap is between Steer and Roll on.

In hindsight, I should have added "Off Brakes" between "Look" and "Steer".

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JB,

OK, a short quote from Twist 2, page 25:

"There are some additional guidelines. Normally riders don't get back onto the throttle until after the steering is completed. This makes sense. During the steering process, it is very difficult to work back into the throttle smoothly enough to keep from jerking the bike and upsetting it. To meet the throttle standard, steering is completed before you start to get it back on."

The chapter is on throttle control, chapter 5. Best to take a look at the whole thing, get all the other data he has there, in sequence.

There is the additional point of the line it takes, discussed a bit more earlier. If you get a chance to do some riding in the next few days, see if you can try it both ways (throttle on, or rolling on while you turn) and then letting the bike finish the turning, then begin the roll on. Hey, is it still decent riding weather where you are?

Let us know if you get a chance to try it out.

C

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JB,

OK, a short quote from Twist 2, page 25:

"There are some additional guidelines. Normally riders don't get back onto the throttle until after the steering is completed. This makes sense. During the steering process, it is very difficult to work back into the throttle smoothly enough to keep from jerking the bike and upsetting it. To meet the throttle standard, steering is completed before you start to get it back on."

The chapter is on throttle control, chapter 5. Best to take a look at the whole thing, get all the other data he has there, in sequence.

There is the additional point of the line it takes, discussed a bit more earlier. If you get a chance to do some riding in the next few days, see if you can try it both ways (throttle on, or rolling on while you turn) and then letting the bike finish the turning, then begin the roll on. Hey, is it still decent riding weather where you are?

Let us know if you get a chance to try it out.

C

Thanks for that, I'll go look that up in a few.

We have some indian summer days here and there. There's one coming up; perhaps I'll slap the bike back together to catch one this weekend (winter project).

The disconnect comes in play by the way I explained it (I suppose). It's very difficult to roll-on and increase lean angle simultaneously, though theoretically possible (change in rear tire circumference thingy). That's not what I meant. The way I was describing is effectively the same thing that racers want to accomplish when they run their idle speed at 3-4k. Same concept.

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Cobie, Racer,

Def. get what you are sayin and agree. That is what I do, just was kinda thinkin about it in a different way I guess. When I read "off gas, brake downshitft, look, turn, roll on" it came to me and I realized I was kinda thinkin that but that wasn't really what I said in my earlier post. For some reason I had this idea you were saying that you were off the throttle to the apex. But that wouldn't quite be a quick flick. Maybe Jaybird is thinkin the same way I was.

Derek

Hi Derek,

"Quick flick" refers to the steering action alone. It means using really positive effort at the handlebars to countersteer the bike and lean it over quickly rather than being lazy about it and just sort of leaning into the turn.

Ideally, I am back on the gas well before the apex of a turn.

racer

How do you deal with drivetrain lash? One of my instructors (another class) said that all bikes have it. On my bike, I've made all kinds of adjustments to reduce it but never to my satisfaction. Some fuel injection systems are also smoother than mine (maybe I should look into that dyno tune). Nevertheless, that lack of smoothness IS THE BIKE. How can I better deal with it? It's an obstacle to my getting on the gas, IMMEDIATELY after turn-in and I wait until I'm nearly at the apex to crack the throttle, loosing the drive that I could have had between turn point and apex.

Educate me.

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The way I was describing is effectively the same thing that racers want to accomplish when they run their idle speed at 3-4k. Same concept.

I don't know any racers who do that.

I recall someone who said that Keith talked about setting the idle up as a "trick" or technique or something, but, the thing is, when I am riding on the track, my RPM's never fall below about 8000-9000 RPM. So... why bother?

I suppose that if a rider/racer missed a shift or made some other mistake that put them in a situation where their RPM's fell that low (ie. below the torque band) which might cause the sort of poor carburetion/injection characteristic you speak of, I suppose it might be helpful to have the idle set up so the motor didn't fall below a speed where it makes usable power. I just don't know anyone who does it.

As far as the typical on/off the gas lash transition you mention, there are many things that can cause sloppiness in the drive train and a delay between forward lash and back lash making it difficult to handle; but, doing things like keeping your chain/sprockets fresh and adjusted properly; and your cush drive fresh; and your throttle cable adjusted; and your rear shock linkage, shock mounts and swingarm bushings well lubed and tight; and your carb/injection map optimized, etc, etc should eliminate the bulk of that delay and sloppiness in the drive train and smooth out the transition between lash modes. However, there is always going to be a degree of lash transition and learning the throttle control to handle that is part of the skill set.

r

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However, there is always going to be a degree of lash transition and learning the throttle control to handle that is part of the skill set.

Was hoping you wouldn't say that. But it is reassuring having that part settled and just accepting it. But I tell ya, no matter how I sneak on the gas it's not as consistent and predicatable as I'd like. Could be a characteristic of the bike.

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Cobie, Racer, Hubbard, Slowass, et al-

I am willing to go on a limb if you guys are willing to stick this out with me. Here goes:

I don’t get you guys holding to the idea of initiating steering off-throttle and here’s why:

Off throttle is relative. The engine is always spinning. If the clutch is transferring power to the rear tire, why should the rider accept whatever he is given as an idle speed when he has the ability to control what he has available? On the street this is acceptable. I cannot foresee Ben Spies doing this when he’s got Mladin breathing down his neck. Whomever is in the gas first and hardest wins, and so that is the perspective from which I’m approaching this subject; WWSD (What Would Spies Do)?

On page 20 of T2 (Ch 4) Mr. Code says, “Under what conditions will your bike hold a constant line through a turn? Off-the-gas transfers weight forward, tending to make the bike stand up and run wide. On-the-gas TOO MUCH does much the same thing, widens the line.” (Caps mine for emphasis)

On Pg 24 (Ch 5) he list 6 negative results from being off-the-gas and then says, “WHEN you get to the throttle determines WHERE the bike is actually working.” (Emphasis his) Then, on the next page, “When? AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. You get on the gas at the earliest possible moment in a corner. This does not mean at the apex, right before the apex or right after the apex or at any particular part of the turn, it means AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.” (Emphasis his again) I ask this question, is the turn only the 3 points where we have markers? Is the Turn-Point part of the turn? Does the turn start where you turn your head to put your eyes on the apex/exit? Does the turn start at the off-braking marker?

Donny Greene’s comment on page 27 says, “I try to get the throttle on just before max lean angle for the turn. This how you get the bike to settle into the turn comfortable.”

And lastly, Page 29 (Ch 6) outlines the steps that I spoke of earlier in the section on Discharging. Step #2 says, “As you turn in, roll-on the gas to get to 40/60 weight transfer. Remember this is at a non-threatening speed so rolling on should not produce any panic whatsoever or do anything except make the bike stable.”

It is true that Spies is comfortable at speeds that I am not yet comfortable, which gives him the advantage of the higher panic threshold, but is his goal to get 40/60 when Mladin’s intake is screaming in his ear?

I had a conversation earlier today about truth being able to withstand scrutiny. Darkness is only the absence of light. I am begging: someone please shine the light on this.

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Racer,

Yes I know what a quick flick is. And im not arguing or whatever else. I know sometimes its hard to tell the tone of voice one wants a reader to read his post in. haha. I am also back on the gas before the apex. Well sometimes i just play around w/ different things. Really helps ya learn when you can safely do that. Understand the how and why or certain things.

Back more on the topic. Almost all fast riders are ones who are able to complete the turn the quickest. Thats what allows them to get back to the throttle. As I see it, the turning of the bike is completed well before the apex. Atleast it should be. Whatever the lean angle is, get to that lean angle as quick as possible. Your turn is complete and get back to the gas. Any corrections(more lean angle, on/off the throttle) means you missed something. Turn in point, speed, lean angle, or possibly all three. Corrections?

And yes, Spies is comfortable at a much faster pace!

Correct me if i am wrong, but the turn starts when you begin to lean the bike. If you start to lean the back at you entry point, and continue to increase lean agle all the way to the apex, then that is your turn. That would be a long turn, keeping you from getting back to the throttle. Right? Throttle rule, don't be on the gas while increasing lean agle. So say that you travled 30 feet from the time you started to lean, to the point of max lean. 30 feet where you were not on the gas. Now, imagine being able to turn the bike in 10 feet. You would be on the gas 20 feet before the person who was using 30 feet to turn. Which one would get you to the exit faster?

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JB,

Most of the references you list with Keith, he refers to the bike already being in the turn, and coming back onto the throttle as soon as possible, after the steering is completed. The last one, page 29, he is talking specifically about high speed turn entries, and lists the turns he's takling about, like the kink at Road America for example. On page 30, " In many cases the rider finds he never had to roll off completely ".

Very specific turns/situations, and how to handle them.

There is nothing wrong with bringing the idle up to 3 or 4k, it will have an effect (even at higher RPMs). This is covered in Soft Science.

Answer a few questions for me: will the bike turn better with weight on the nose, off throttle, front end compressed a little, steeper steering angle?

Is it pretty busy to try and come into the gas and throttle at the same time, and make that smooth?

Will the bike run wider than it would, if some throttle is on at turn entry, than if the throttle is off?

We are heading to some schools in Vegas, very limited Forum time from now until Tuesday, try and get back as soon as I can.

Best,

CF

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Answer a few questions for me: will the bike turn better with weight on the nose, off throttle, front end compressed a little, steeper steering angle?

Is it pretty busy to try and come into the gas and throttle at the same time, and make that smooth?

Will the bike run wider than it would, if some throttle is on at turn entry, than if the throttle is off?

There is a point of diminishing returns with weight on the front. It's one of the reasons n00bs aren't taught to trail-brake into corners; it's too difficult to balance pressure on the front with the cornering forces without overwhelming the available front tire traction.

Busy, no. Try this: Successively go into a chosen turn, hold a steady rpm while monitoring your rpm as you enter. Increase rpm a few hundred each time through.

I'm sorry to say, but it seems that you are convincing me in the merits of my point, and that disturbs me.

I didn't have the idea of going into the turn on the gas until I started to read/study the CSS methods more carefully. And the more I read it and your responses the more I think you're over-simplifying.

On a practical note, I know for sure off-gas works. I've ridden that way for years. But intellectually, the merits of on-gas seems preferred, nevermind the difficult of skill mastery. Isn't that what we're here for?

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There is nothing wrong with bringing the idle up to 3 or 4k, it will have an effect (even at higher RPMs). This is covered in Soft Science.

Right. The same effect as not having the throttle closed all the way because, well... it isn't.

It will reduce engine braking and some of the "lash" effect that Jay spoke of and can help to smooth out the transition getting back on the throttle mid-turn I suppose. That said, although it may help to overcome a poorly carburetted or inferior injection system, wouldn't it have the potential to become a crutch and/or possibly prevent a student from developing more finely tuned throttle control skills?

Where is the idle set on CSS school bikes?

PS - I don't have a copy of Soft Science. :shamed:

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There is nothing wrong with bringing the idle up to 3 or 4k, it will have an effect (even at higher RPMs). This is covered in Soft Science.

Right. The same effect as not having the throttle closed all the way because, well... it isn't.

It will reduce engine braking and some of the "lash" effect that Jay spoke of and can help to smooth out the transition getting back on the throttle mid-turn I suppose. That said, although it may help to overcome a poorly carburetted or inferior injection system, wouldn't it have the potential to become a crutch and/or possibly prevent a student from developing more finely tuned throttle control skills?

Where is the idle set on CSS school bikes?

PS - I don't have a copy of Soft Science. :shamed:

We keep the student bikes normally set. Some of the coaches ride with their bikes set with a higher idle. We have also used/recommended it at times for students.

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Answer a few questions for me: will the bike turn better with weight on the nose, off throttle, front end compressed a little, steeper steering angle?

Is it pretty busy to try and come into the gas and throttle at the same time, and make that smooth?

Will the bike run wider than it would, if some throttle is on at turn entry, than if the throttle is off?

There is a point of diminishing returns with weight on the front. It's one of the reasons n00bs aren't taught to trail-brake into corners; it's too difficult to balance pressure on the front with the cornering forces without overwhelming the available front tire traction.

Busy, no. Try this: Successively go into a chosen turn, hold a steady rpm while monitoring your rpm as you enter. Increase rpm a few hundred each time through.

I'm sorry to say, but it seems that you are convincing me in the merits of my point, and that disturbs me.

I didn't have the idea of going into the turn on the gas until I started to read/study the CSS methods more carefully. And the more I read it and your responses the more I think you're over-simplifying.

On a practical note, I know for sure off-gas works. I've ridden that way for years. But intellectually, the merits of on-gas seems preferred, nevermind the difficult of skill mastery. Isn't that what we're here for?

Not sure what is being over simplified.

The front lifts when throttle is rolled on, and lightened. Is this as a good a turning option as with a little weight on it, from off gas, or very slight braking?

C

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Perhaps I will wait until after Lvl 1/ 2 to continue this discussion. I will give deference to the fact that you have Mr. Code at your ready access and have the ability to ask him things like, "What did you mean when you wrote ...?" or "Now that you think about it, is there more that could have or should have been said here or there?"

I reason that the distillation of all this is that there are some corners where you can take on the gas (ie, sweepers, carousels, esses) and some you can't (slow, 1st, 2nd gear 90 degree turns from straighaway, chicanes).

Something that I thought was settled in my mind as an alternative way of cornering now isn't. Perhaps I ought to quit riding until then??? I like experimenting, but the stakes are too high, and a confused mind can't make a decision.

What is taught in the no brakes drill?

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