Inside Pressure

[Jaybird180]

I took advantage of an Indian Summer day (low 70’s) on Friday after a long (4mo3dy) hiatus. I had been making some changes to the bike and getting some maintenance items done. I had my shock sent out for service and also had my forks serviced. I also installed some aftermarket rearsets.

 

I noticed when turning at slow speeds it feels as if the handlebar wants to continue to turn inwards. At higher speeds I also notice that I need to keep some pressure on the inside bar while at lean. I can easily widen my line with throttle, which I enjoy.

 

What changes do I need to make to correct this, or is this normal behavior? I was told that this is a factor of the profile of my Michelin Pilot Pro tires (32f/36r). When I got the suspension about a 1-1/2yr ago, it was also at that time that I put on the Michelins, so I don’t have a baseline of known change and effect. Previously I was on stock suspension and Dunlop tires. Can someone provide guidance as to whether this is a geometry or tire issue?

[racer]

Hi Jay,

 

I've never personally experienced this. I have been told by others that tire profile (new or worn) can cause this sort of thing. However, I had a "conversation" (traded posts) with Keith this past Spring/Summer and he said that, at least when talking about new tires, it's BS.

 

So, I believe I can say that, Keith would say, you are probably putting some pressure on the outside handlebar without realizing it.

 

One thing, you said you can "widen your line with the throttle". Is this related to the rest of the post, or merely an off-hand remark that has nothing to do with what you are experiencing? Because, the thing is, if your handlebar wants to turn inward and you are needing to put pressure on it, then you areworking against the bike trying to run wide already as it is trying to counter-steer itself up, eh? So, the remark seemed to beg some clarification.

 

Anyway, I'd like to ask whether this is happening in both left and right turns. And do you have any reference for how far over you are leaned on the profile of the tire? Like how far over the tire is worn and what the shape of the profile is there? If the profile seems consistent at the wear line, or you are riding out to the edge of the tire, I'd say pay attention to what you are doing at the handlebars, ie. perhaps holding yourself up on that outside bar.

 

A last thought, rearsetting the footpegs can create a tendency to put more weight on the bars. If you tend to be sitting on the seat, are you locking on in corners? If not, where are you holding on? Where are you holding yourself up?

 

r

[Jaybird180]

Hi Jay,

 

I've never personally experienced this. I have been told by others that tire profile (new or worn) can cause this sort of thing. However, I had a "conversation" (traded posts) with Keith this past Spring/Summer and he said that, at least when talking about new tires, it's BS.

 

So, I believe I can say that, Keith would say, you are probably putting some pressure on the outside handlebar without realizing it.

 

One thing, you said you can "widen your line with the throttle". Is this related to the rest of the post, or merely an off-hand remark that has nothing to do with what you are experiencing? Because, the thing is, if your handlebar wants to turn inward and you are needing to put pressure on it, then you areworking against the bike trying to run wide already as it is trying to counter-steer itself up, eh? So, the remark seemed to beg some clarification.

 

Anyway, I'd like to ask whether this is happening in both left and right turns. And do you have any reference for how far over you are leaned on the profile of the tire? Like how far over the tire is worn and what the shape of the profile is there? If the profile seems consistent at the wear line, or you are riding out to the edge of the tire, I'd say pay attention to what you are doing at the handlebars, ie. perhaps holding yourself up on that outside bar.

 

A last thought, rearsetting the footpegs can create a tendency to put more weight on the bars. If you tend to be sitting on the seat, are you locking on in corners? If not, where are you holding on? Where are you holding yourself up?

 

r

 

I had this same phenomenon when the tires were new. I didn't notice this prior to the new tires/suspension combo.

 

Tire wear is even across the surface of the tire. The Michelin profile is different (front particularly) than a Dunlop or Pirelli, they are considered neutral steering tires opposed to Michelin or Bridgestone (not sure about the new ones), at least this was the consensus from other internet forums.

 

I considered that I was putting pressure elsewhere. Except, that my body position is such that I can remove my hands from the bar and support my weight by my lower body while turning. I tried to take my hands off the bars altogether but the bike stood up (duh, no gas stupid). If I go into a right turn and remove my left hand, I still need a little pressure on the right bar.

 

 

Regarding the wideneing line: If I don't stay in the gas the bike will want to tighten her line while leaned over and so I usually keep rolling to maintain arc.

[racer]

Interesting.

[acebobby]

I took advantage of an Indian Summer day (low 70?s) on Friday after a long (4mo3dy) hiatus. I had been making some changes to the bike and getting some maintenance items done. I had my shock sent out for service and also had my forks serviced. I also installed some aftermarket rearsets.

 

I noticed when turning at slow speeds it feels as if the handlebar wants to continue to turn inwards. At higher speeds I also notice that I need to keep some pressure on the inside bar while at lean. I can easily widen my line with throttle, which I enjoy.

 

What changes do I need to make to correct this, or is this normal behavior? I was told that this is a factor of the profile of my Michelin Pilot Pro tires (32f/36r). When I got the suspension about a 1-1/2yr ago, it was also at that time that I put on the Michelins, so I don?t have a baseline of known change and effect. Previously I was on stock suspension and Dunlop tires. Can someone provide guidance as to whether this is a geometry or tire issue?

 

 

Has this been a problem for 1-1/2 years since changing the suspension and tyres, or since recently when you got the suspension serviced and fitted the rearsets? maybe the rearsets are causing you to put more weight over the front of the bike than you previously did! Also is your suspension set for your weight, since getting it serviced are you using the same springs, fork oil, etc?

[Jaybird180]

Has this been a problem for 1-1/2 years since changing the suspension and tyres, or since recently when you got the suspension serviced and fitted the rearsets? maybe the rearsets are causing you to put more weight over the front of the bike than you previously did! Also is your suspension set for your weight, since getting it serviced are you using the same springs, fork oil, etc?

Not sure it's a "problem". But yes, it's been this way all along, I'd just forgotten since I hadn't ridden in awhile and I had to re-acclimatize to the bike and I was paying more attention to the feedback. All it does is costs me a very little effort on the inside bar. I'm sure it's not good for my tire wear. It also forces me to be mindful of my throttle input. It's very slight.

 

The springs are allegedly "correct" for my weight. I wouldn't ride on stock suspension after riding on this, that's for sure.

 

The only recent change is the rearsets. I don't know what oil was used when the forks were built originally. The builder is no longer in the biz and the new shop owner isn't answering calls/ emails, etc. So I had the local Racetech guy do the work while I watched and asked questions.

[acebobby]

Ok so what happens if you dont keep pressure on the inside bar?

You also say that your line will tighten up if you dont stay in the gas, but this cant happen, the bike will run wide if you close the trottle!

[racer]

I tried to take my hands off the bars altogether but the bike stood up (duh, no gas stupid).

 

If I don't stay in the gas the bike will want to tighten her line while leaned over and so I usually keep rolling to maintain arc.

 

Hey Jay,

 

These two statements would seem to contradict each other.

 

racer

[Jaybird180]

I tried to take my hands off the bars altogether but the bike stood up (duh, no gas stupid).

 

If I don't stay in the gas the bike will want to tighten her line while leaned over and so I usually keep rolling to maintain arc.

 

Hey Jay,

 

These two statements would seem to contradict each other.

 

racer

LOL- I can see how you'd say that. Weirdest thing.

 

I had considered that it was rider inconsistency. But it can happen at full lean. Perhaps because of the inside bar pressure, if I DONT roll or stay constant it will tighten the line.

 

Any bike, if your at lean and turning if you take your hands off and go off throttle will stand up.

 

Make sense now?

[Jaybird180]

Ok so what happens if you dont keep pressure on the inside bar?

You also say that your line will tighten up if you dont stay in the gas, but this cant happen, the bike will run wide if you close the trottle!

See my reply to racer...may just be a mental thing because I'm conscious of the inside pressure and I'm compensating if I don't roll the gas.

[acebobby]

I suggest that you stop applying pressure to the inside bar as you are not allowing the tyre to track the road, all your suspension upgrades are worthless if you dont let them do their job! I would practice getting it right even if you have to slow down and grip the tank with both knees at first, the idea is to minimise rider input,

If your bike is in tip top condition i.e steering head bearing and all bearings ok, swing arm pivot ok, able to steer lock to lock without cables fouling, all just general maintenance really then I think the problem is psychological. Different tyre manufacturer's have slightly different profiles but they dont cause problems, the problems are caused by the riders confidence in the tyres, I have ran michelin pilot power 2CTs for 12000 miles (more than one set) on my bike and they gave me mega confidence, I found my steering to be predictable and accurate! I have recently changed to Dunlop qualifiers through the recommendations on this forum and the fact they are much cheaper, out on a ride there is a noticeable difference in the bikes handling, unfortunately winter has arrived here in Scotland so I have been unable to push very hard to really test them out!

[Jaybird180]

I suggest that you stop applying pressure to the inside bar as you are not allowing the tyre to track the road, all your suspension upgrades are worthless if you dont let them do their job! I would practice getting it right even if you have to slow down and grip the tank with both knees at first, the idea is to minimise rider input,

If your bike is in tip top condition i.e steering head bearing and all bearings ok, swing arm pivot ok, able to steer lock to lock without cables fouling, all just general maintenance really then I think the problem is psychological. Different tyre manufacturer's have slightly different profiles but they dont cause problems, the problems are caused by the riders confidence in the tyres, I have ran michelin pilot power 2CTs for 12000 miles (more than one set) on my bike and they gave me mega confidence, I found my steering to be predictable and accurate! I have recently changed to Dunlop qualifiers through the recommendations on this forum and the fact they are much cheaper, out on a ride there is a noticeable difference in the bikes handling, unfortunately winter has arrived here in Scotland so I have been unable to push very hard to really test them out!

I think I have too much weight on the front. Throttle seems to relieve it. Thanks for the suggestions.

[Cobie Fair]

I think I have too much weight on the front. Throttle seems to relieve it. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Are the tire profiles different than what you had before?

[Jaybird180]

I think I have too much weight on the front. Throttle seems to relieve it. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Are the tire profiles different than what you had before?

I went from Dunlop D208 (I think) to Michelin Pilot Power

[Cobie Fair]

I think I have too much weight on the front. Throttle seems to relieve it. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Are the tire profiles different than what you had before?

I went from Dunlop D208 (I think) to Michelin Pilot Power

 

Did you have the same problem with the dunlops? That tire is pretty tire is fairly triangular.

 

CF

[Jaybird180]

I think I have too much weight on the front. Throttle seems to relieve it. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Are the tire profiles different than what you had before?

I went from Dunlop D208 (I think) to Michelin Pilot Power

 

Did you have the same problem with the dunlops? That tire is pretty tire is fairly triangular.

 

CF

No such "problem" when I had the Dunlops.

[Cobie Fair]

No such "problem" when I had the Dunlops.

 

Wonder if it's just that (tire profile) JB.

 

CF

[racer]

I've heard that a more triangular tire profile can produce a "non-neutral" steering condition.

 

Also, a coach at the TeamPromotion school told me that all tires create this effect to some degree. But, more so for trangular profiles, and that hanging off just the right amount can cancel it out. In other words, if the handlebar is trying to turn in and cause the bike to stand up, hanging off in the proper CSS style will help keep the bike neutral. He said he can feel the groove when he gets his head down to just the right point.

[Hotfoot]

I think I have too much weight on the front. Throttle seems to relieve it. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Is it possible that the front suspension is packing, driving the nose down and giving you the effect of a hook turn? Maybe you could try stiffening the front compression and/or setting a quicker rebound in front to see it that helps.