Quick Turns

[Jaybird180]

I remember when I was working on quick steering as the main focus (for sure still work on it). I got to steering OK, but the darn thing would bobble on me at the end of the steering action, and it took a little to sort that out.

And what did you find as a solution to your entry stability problem?

 

The specific thing I noticed was that the bike wiggled/bobbled, whatever you want to call it, right at the end of the steering action, right as I got closest to max lean. It was a little unnerving. I had to learn how to ease back up on the bars. This wasn't just a one-solution fix though, as part of the problem was due to body positioning on the bike, and I wasn't supporting myself correctly with my legs. What Keith developed on the Lean Bike fixed most of it, then easing up on the bars at the end of the steering action.

 

C

 

I think I can relate to that feeling, before I had read TOTW and joined this forum I used to counter steer but not relax when I got leaned over, I would hold some pressure on the inside bar, at the time I thought this was the correct method and would feel that front end wobble all the way through the turn, back then I never got on the gas till the apex either so everything was wrong! Now since learning to relax my grip the bike goes through the turn so much smoother and am able to corner a lot faster than before, the only reason I need my hands on the bars during cornering now is to roll on the throttle! I cant wait to get on the lean bike though!

I recall one of the suspension guys talking about the feeling of the bars 'rowing' through the corner. Is this what you're describing?

[Bones]

What is a quick unflick?

Why would a rider's ability to turn the bike quick enough limit or improve their feel for how much speed they could carry into a corner? What are the factors that determine how quickly you get the bike turned? There are several of them, let's see what kind of list we can make:

1. I'll start off...The limit of lean angle for the bike you are riding. That means where you will hit hard parts.

Your turns Keith

2. Corner Chamber (positive chamber / up hill - more, negative / down hill - less)

3. Bike Geometry (Steep steering angle / race bike - quicker, long steering angle / chopper - slower)

4 - Press on the inside handle bar harder to make the bike turn quicker.

5 - Suspension Pre-Load, which effects the bikes geoemtry. So if you adjust the pre-load (setting the static sag) it would also affect your turn rate.

[Cobie Fair]

I recall one of the suspension guys talking about the feeling of the bars 'rowing' through the corner. Is this what you're describing?

 

For me specifically it was just at the end of the turning action. For sure pressuere after that can create problems, but i was just referring to after turn in.

[jmccready]

I've spent the last couple of weeks getting familiar with this forum, and some of the terms being used are foreign to me. I don't expect to get the CSS training from this forum, although some insight to these terms wil be helpful to understanding what's being said.

 

1. What is the "two step" (not a country western dance move)

2. Will the quick flick be addressed in level 1 training

 

3. What IS addressed in the Level 1 training. Is it laid out somewhere in writing so I can see what the curriculum is

 

I'm going to Level 1 in about two weeks, and I'm hoping to have some idea of what to expect.

 

Any help ???

[Jaybird180]

I've spent the last couple of weeks getting familiar with this forum, and some of the terms being used are foreign to me. I don't expect to get the CSS training from this forum, although some insight to these terms wil be helpful to understanding what's being said.

 

1. What is the "two step" (not a country western dance move)

2. Will the quick flick be addressed in level 1 training

 

3. What IS addressed in the Level 1 training. Is it laid out somewhere in writing so I can see what the curriculum is

 

I'm going to Level 1 in about two weeks, and I'm hoping to have some idea of what to expect.

 

Any help ???

 

You will understand the Lingo from reading Twist 2 and (guess what?)...This forum. The 2-Step drill isn't covered until Level 2 training, but concept material is in the book.

[Kevin Kane]

AB;

Here's a simple response.

1. What is the "two step"

It is a drill developed to expand your vision skills used in cornering. It expands your ability to place yourself (and the bike) in time and in space.

2. Will the quick flick be addressed in level 1 training?

It is an upper level drill IIRC

3. What IS addressed in the Level 1 training? Is it laid out somewhere in writing so I can see what the curriculum is?

If you go to the the US School icon in the banner of the Forum you will find a contents section of the School's website to the left. Click on the Curriculum tab then on the Levels tab to get an overview..

The short answer is that Level I is focused upon stabilizing the bike. You need a "stable" platform to do almost anything so the program starts there. If you have read the Twist of the Wrist books you will come to understand that all of the Levels are explained in both books but the specific drills used in the School setting are geared to give you the best framework in the context of five classroom/track sessions...if that makes sense.

 

Kevin

[stuman]

Just FYI the "two step" is covered in level one as is the "quick turn".

[teg]

hello people

just a thought on quick turning based on my particular problem i had at an early school which we came back to later on - i had to learn to realise that just as important as the push on the inside bar to counter steer it in - was the release of the bar .

 

my initial problem was i was fighting myself - i was pushing on the inside bar but resisting after and not letting the bike turn , once this was all broken down to me improvements in quick turn were great .

 

i guess what i,m trying to say is that i thought i must keep needing to push the inside bar harder to turn quicker -- but this is only any good if you release after ... once i learnt to release after the push i needed less pressure .

 

i like to think i,ve nipped this in the bud but i still try and monitor myself , especially if its cold or wet when we naturally tend to tense up more anyway .

 

cheers

[Cobie Fair]

hello people

just a thought on quick turning based on my particular problem i had at an early school which we came back to later on - i had to learn to realise that just as important as the push on the inside bar to counter steer it in - was the release of the bar .

 

my initial problem was i was fighting myself - i was pushing on the inside bar but resisting after and not letting the bike turn , once this was all broken down to me improvements in quick turn were great .

 

i guess what i,m trying to say is that i thought i must keep needing to push the inside bar harder to turn quicker -- but this is only any good if you release after ... once i learnt to release after the push i needed less pressure .

 

i like to think i,ve nipped this in the bud but i still try and monitor myself , especially if its cold or wet when we naturally tend to tense up more anyway .

 

cheers

 

Hi Teg,

 

Good point, getting back loose on the bars after turn in. Sounds easy but...not always that easy to get oneself to do!

 

C

[Jaybird180]

I wonder...when a bike is QT'd and the front doesn't grip (for whatever reason), physics says that the bike should continue in the same direction, forward. If a traction loss occurrs during the countersteering input, the bike should remain vertical AND, I propose remain stable (?).

 

What do you guys/ gals think?

[Kevin Kane]

I wonder...when a bike is QT'd and the front doesn't grip (for whatever reason), physics says that the bike should continue in the same direction, forward. If a traction loss occurrs during the countersteering input, the bike should remain vertical AND, I propose remain stable (?).

 

What do you guys/ gals think?

Jaybird;

I don't think the circumstance you describe could last but for an instant in the real world. In theory if there was no friction between the tire and the surface of the track, there would be no stability offered by that friction so the bike would fall.

 

I had a similar kind of incident happen although I wasn't adding any bar inputs (turning) when it happened.

 

I was bedding in a new set of brake pads in the rain before the start of a track day. Riding in an isolated section of the paddock I was accelerating and braking with an increasing level of brake pressure on each successive pass just like the school uses the brake bike. At a certain point the braking action caused the front to hydroplane so completely that it literally washed the front and the bike dropped like a rock. Fortunately I had experienced the brake bike at a School and I released the lever and threw my leg out in time to catch the fall but only by the skin of my teeth.

 

So from my experience, I do not think it is possible to replicate the situation you describe and keep the bike upright for very long but...YRMV.

 

K

[Hotfoot]

I wonder...when a bike is QT'd and the front doesn't grip (for whatever reason), physics says that the bike should continue in the same direction, forward. If a traction loss occurrs during the countersteering input, the bike should remain vertical AND, I propose remain stable (?).

 

What do you guys/ gals think?

 

I agree with Kevin, this is too theoretical to have any practical significance. Because, after all there is STILL some friction between the tire and the ground. Maybe not enough to complete the desired quick turn, but still enough to make the bike lean, at which point gravity would take over and make you fall down. And momentum would take you forward or to the outside of the turn (depending on how much the bike turned before the front started to slide).

 

The only case I can think of where front wheel traction goes to zero is a wheelie - so, go try a quick turn in a wheelie, I bet you WOULD go straight and remain vertical!

[Jaybird180]

The only case I can think of where front wheel traction goes to zero is a wheelie - so, go try a quick turn in a wheelie, I bet you WOULD go straight and remain vertical!

 

 

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Good One!

 

The practicality is in convincing someone like me that it's all too difficult to crash by QT'ng and encouraging me to JUST DO IT!

[GregGorman]

The only case I can think of where front wheel traction goes to zero is a wheelie - so, go try a quick turn in a wheelie, I bet you WOULD go straight and remain vertical!

 

 

A quick turn in esses can sometimes lift the front. Say a left-right. Come out of the left hard on the gas and start your flick before you roll off the gas and viola - wheelie. Another situation is just banked esses where the left and right banking forms a crest in the road or track. If your flick is timed at the top of the crest you can get the front wheel off the ground. If you do this, just right, in the Corkscrew at Laguna, you can get both wheels off the ground.

 

The interesting thing to remember is the bike has the momentum of the steering input so it continues to lean while one or both wheels are in the air. If there's enough front brake drag, the front wheel slows down enough to slide when it lands but it quickly gets back up to speed and traction in that situation hasn't ever been a problem for me. Of course I'm not talking huge, stand up and wave at the crowd, wheelies either.

 

I think there's a picture in Twist I of King Kenny wheeling in the middle of the Corkscrew right on top of the left/right crest.

[GregGorman]

The practicality is in convincing someone like me that it's all too difficult to crash by QT'ng and encouraging me to JUST DO IT!

 

Eh, no convincing. The faster you want to go, the faster you'll turn the bike. That's just the physics of it. To really see quick turning from the pros, watch them in the esses. Especially watch national championships when the leaders are lapping the "slower" riders.

[Hotfoot]

The only case I can think of where front wheel traction goes to zero is a wheelie - so, go try a quick turn in a wheelie, I bet you WOULD go straight and remain vertical!

 

 

A quick turn in esses can sometimes lift the front. Say a left-right. Come out of the left hard on the gas and start your flick before you roll off the gas and viola - wheelie. Another situation is just banked esses where the left and right banking forms a crest in the road or track. If your flick is timed at the top of the crest you can get the front wheel off the ground. If you do this, just right, in the Corkscrew at Laguna, you can get both wheels off the ground.

 

The interesting thing to remember is the bike has the momentum of the steering input so it continues to lean while one or both wheels are in the air. If there's enough front brake drag, the front wheel slows down enough to slide when it lands but it quickly gets back up to speed and traction in that situation hasn't ever been a problem for me. Of course I'm not talking huge, stand up and wave at the crowd, wheelies either.

 

I think there's a picture in Twist I of King Kenny wheeling in the middle of the Corkscrew right on top of the left/right crest.

 

OMG thank you for posting this, you just cleared something up for me!!! I did EXACTLY what you just described at the Corkscrew last year - quick turned at the top of the crest and the front wheel came off the ground. For a year now I thought that I had caused that by pulling up a little on the bars when switching from one side of the bike to the other. But I don't actually REMEMBER doing that, which was bothersome. After reading your post, the whole thing makes way more sense to me.

 

So what actually causes that lift, the suspension rebound?

[GregGorman]

Off throttle, I don't know. It'd be real easy to say suspension rebound but I don't think it's that simple. What I feel tells me that the sheer momentum of the left/right quick turn combined with the rebound, combined with rider movement, combined with the force of the countersteer work to do this. In other words, a lot of angular velocities that I can't really think with.

 

And, for the front wheel to come up off throttle, except when cresting banking, I have to think it's technically a rider error - or rider fun. I mean it's possible to go from left to right real damn fast in a parking lot without the front coming up.

[Jaybird180]

The practicality is in convincing someone like me that it's all too difficult to crash by QT'ng and encouraging me to JUST DO IT!

 

Eh, no convincing. The faster you want to go, the faster you'll turn the bike. That's just the physics of it. To really see quick turning from the pros, watch them in the esses. Especially watch national championships when the leaders are lapping the "slower" riders.

 

Don't think I'll get the chance to see this up close anytime soon. At the school, Dylan showed us some video from a chase bike of him doing QT's. It was about 3/4s from vertical to knee! It was awesome. I remind myself of it now, by making a "dink" sound while riding. Sounds weird, but it's working enough to get me to remember to QT! And it took Dylan about the same time for me to make the sound for him to execute it!

[acebobby]

The practicality is in convincing someone like me that it's all too difficult to crash by QT'ng and encouraging me to JUST DO IT!

 

Eh, no convincing. The faster you want to go, the faster you'll turn the bike. That's just the physics of it. To really see quick turning from the pros, watch them in the esses. Especially watch national championships when the leaders are lapping the "slower" riders.

 

Don't think I'll get the chance to see this up close anytime soon. At the school, Dylan showed us some video from a chase bike of him doing QT's. It was about 3/4s from vertical to knee! It was awesome. I remind myself of it now, by making a "dink" sound while riding. Sounds weird, but it's working enough to get me to remember to QT! And it took Dylan about the same time for me to make the sound for him to execute it!

 

Hi Jay

Something worth thinking about when practicing your quick turn is the 2-step drill! As you know the procedure you will know that if you direct the bike precisely where you intend it to go then you have QT'd it perfectly for that situation, if you QT'd any faster you would run into the inside of the turn! So, in that situation there are 2 ways you can speed up your QT 1/ choose a later turn point and 2/ increase your entry speed, lets assume that you are happy with the turn point, then gradually increase your entry speed while 2-stepping the corner, by doing this you automatically have to turn faster to follow the same line through the turn! Working on it this way makes you increase your QT speed gradually and takes any fear of the front losing traction while QTing away!

 

Its not about convincing you how difficult it is to crash QTing but more like convincing you that your more likely to crash (run wide) by not doing it.

[kawdude636]

well said... This year when I get to practice qt's I'll be sure to measure my rate by my increase in entry speed and a later turn point! Good things to focus on I think in bringing up speed in the corner. I love esses and quick steering inputs, really gets the blood flowing!!!

[bellevuetlr]

ive only used quick steering on switchbacks and 2nd gear corners where i find them more effective.. the faster ones require smooth tip in. ive tried it on faster corners 3rd-5th gear corners as well but i just didnt feel planted. watch plus, you cant really trail brake when you do quick steering and thats the biggest thing for me. and i know this is one thing that Kieth Code doenst really teach? more of a Spencer thing. watch the top racers. as a matter of fact, watch motogp and watch the onboard video that shows rider inputs and what the bike is doing.

 

 

thats my 2 centavos.

[Jaybird180]

The dead has arisen

[acebobby]

ive only used quick steering on switchbacks and 2nd gear corners where i find them more effective.. the faster ones require smooth tip in. ive tried it on faster corners 3rd-5th gear corners as well but i just didnt feel planted. watch plus, you cant really trail brake when you do quick steering and thats the biggest thing for me. and i know this is one thing that Kieth Code doenst really teach? more of a Spencer thing. watch the top racers. as a matter of fact, watch motogp and watch the onboard video that shows rider inputs and what the bike is doing.

 

 

thats my 2 centavos.

 

 

definitely watch the moto gp guys and time them going from vertical to max lean and though they may seem so smooth that it does not appear that fast, when you time them you will realise that they turn mega fast, Nicky Hayden uses wider bars to help turn the bike fast!

[Jaybird180]

ive only used quick steering on switchbacks and 2nd gear corners where i find them more effective.. the faster ones require smooth tip in. ive tried it on faster corners 3rd-5th gear corners as well but i just didnt feel planted. watch plus, you cant really trail brake when you do quick steering and thats the biggest thing for me. and i know this is one thing that Kieth Code doenst really teach? more of a Spencer thing. watch the top racers. as a matter of fact, watch motogp and watch the onboard video that shows rider inputs and what the bike is doing.

 

 

thats my 2 centavos.

 

 

definitely watch the moto gp guys and time them going from vertical to max lean and though they may seem so smooth that it does not appear that fast, when you time them you will realise that they turn mega fast, Nicky Hayden uses wider bars to help turn the bike fast!

 

Perhaps (and this is just a suggestion) that it's a matter of style and type of bike ridden. SBK riders focus more on 'point and shoot' and GP is more focused on energy maintenance (cornerspeed).

 

Agree/disagree?

[Dissident]

Well, at high speed, by the fact that it takes so much more energy to turn the bike, it's not possible to "flick" it over as quick, and if you watch the motogp riders in fast corners, it can seem that they are turning slow, but if you put an average rider on a bike and told them to steer at that speed, you'd seem them do it muuuuch slower.

 

If you don't think they do it quickly, like Greg said, watch them in a chicane and see how fast they go from one side to the other. When I took STAR school with Jason Pridmore and rode on the bike for two laps, I was shocked how quick the chicane turn was. For me as a relatively new rider at the time, I felt like I barely had time to pick the bike up from the one side to the other in the chicane, and yet I was going way slower then him. When I rode on the back, I realized that even two up, he was picking the bike up, grabbing another gear in the middle, and then flicking it over to the other side in less time than it took me to do one part of it!