Backing It In...

[stuman]

Many racers do not blip when they down shift, they release the clutch slowly instead.

Erm... what? Are you talking about dirt bikes and supermoto perhaps?

 

The VAST majority of road racers blip. And ALL the riding/racing coaches at EVERY road racing school I have ever attended or worked for, including CSS, teach it as the proper standard technique. Very few road racers I know of are not able to master it or choose to not blip.

 

In any case, I see what you mean now about pulling in the clutch and letting the rev's drop down low rather than hitting the rev limiter to get the same effect of back torquing the wheel when you release the clutch. Thanks for explaining that.

 

Of course, as Keith teaches and Cobie has already said and every road racer knows, not blipping and releasing the clutch between each shift is a good way to catch a false neutral and lose track of what gear you are in... or not in.

 

So, maybe supermoto guys do it differently?

 

 

No I'm speaking of backing it in on a roadracing motorcycle.

 

Maybe the majority of roadracers do blip when they down shift, but many do not.

 

There are schools that teach students to release the clutch slowly instead of blipping.

 

I assume some roadracers choose not to blip because they are comfortable with that technique and do not feel blipping would benifit them, not because they could not master blipping.

 

I don't recall Keith or Cobie mentioning that not blipping would cause a false neutral or make you forget what gear your in, but I'm getting kinda old so I forget things sometimes.

 

I do remember having a conversation with Keith on the subject, and I belive the main reason he recomends that riders should blip the throttle instead of releaseing the clutch slowly was because releasing the clutch slowly took too long and you have to put more attention on what your doing with your clutch hand.

 

 

 

I'm glad that you find using only the rear brake works well for you when backing it in.

 

Personlay I find I have more control using the clutch. I don't believe that this is some strange technique recently invented by supermoto riders.

 

Remember, riding is an ART, each rider has their own interpretation of what works best for them.

[acebobby]

Pretty sure it was Doohan that was the first, then Duhamel here in the US used it I think for a while too.

 

Yes, it was Doohan and DuHamel followed suit when he broke his leg, too. DuHamel liked it so much he kept the thumb lever after his leg healed. I don't recall if Doohan's leg ever healed enough to effectively use the pedal again.

 

 

Nicolo Canepa, Ducati's motogp rookie is having to ride with a thumb brake on his GP9 as his size 10 feet are too big to effectively operate the rear brrake with his foot at max lean angle!

[racer]

Maybe the majority of roadracers do blip when they down shift, but many do not.

I don't know what that means. If you know fifty road racers who don't blip, would you consider that to be "many"? I would not. I would consider it to be "few" as it represents a very small percentage of all road racers.

 

Soo, how many can you name?

 

Regardless, I will take that statement as clear indication of you now backing off of your implication that racers not blipping supports your contention that "clutch release, not braking" is how "backing it in" is done on road bikes.

 

There are schools that teach students to release the clutch slowly instead of blipping.

Roadracing schools? Can you name some?

 

I don't recall Keith or Cobie mentioning that not blipping would cause a false neutral or make you forget what gear your in, but I'm getting kinda old so I forget things sometimes.

I know what you mean. I am starting to get a little older myself at 45; but, I do recall Keith and Cobie saying so both at the school and here on the forum. Actually, it is part of Keith's standard rap and one of the most basic tenets of standard downshifting. It is probably even mentioned in TOTW. If I have some free time, I'll do a search for you. In the meantime, Cobie could chime in as he obviously knows what he said and is here more frequently than I am these days. And anyone can always email Keith and ask what he thinks.

 

r

 

 

PS ~ We have several threads devoted to the subject of downshifting here on the forum. One recent thread going in depth where I posted some animated diagrams of transmissions to help demonstrate why it is mechanically a good idea to blip and release. Aside from catching false neutrals and getting lost in the gears, what you suggest (ie. pulling in the clutch and letting the revs fall off) increases the risk of damaging your transmission because the synchromesh can't overcome that kind of difference in revs between road and motor. So, if you are little sloppy with your shift points, ie. if you shift when the revs are down, you are likely to get a very loud surprise.

 

But don't take my word for it, go ahead everyone, go wind out first gear to red line, pull in the clutch and let the revs fall off, then shift into second gear. Clatter clank bang... OUCH!

 

If you can even get second gear to engage, it will be a highly painful experience for your transmissions and a good way to chip and break those oh so lovely factory undercut dogs and bend up your shift forks.

 

Better yet, wind up third gear to red line, pull in the clutch and let the revs fall, then downshift to second gear.

 

Actually, please don't. I think most everyone here has done it by accident at least once and knows what I am talking about.

 

The thing is that even with the clutch pulled in, the oil in a wet clutch creates hydraulic stiction between the clutch plates. Not enough for the motor to slow the bike down, or road speed to affect the motor; but, enough to back torque the input shaft of the tranny and reduce the effect of the synchro-mesh to match gear speeds when shifting. To be clear, THIS is how motorcycle transmissions get damaged. Chipped and broken dogs and bent shift forks from trying to force the shifter through the same circumstance.

 

So, anyone who wants to try the "clutch release to back it in" technique, I would recommend completing all of your downshifts with blipping and only after the last downshift would I hold the clutch in and let the revs fall off to use clutch release to slow the rear wheel. Again... only after I finish all downshifting would I hold the clutch in and let the revs fall.

 

Anyway, I will stick to using the rear brake. It's cheaper to replace brake pads than clutch plates... or transmissions.

 

Also, to anyone who wants to experiment more with the rear brake... I cut my rear pads (use a grinding wheel to reduce the surface area of the pad) to reduce braking action and give me a finer, broader range of control, ie. allow me to push harder, hence, have better feel and control to not lock it up. And so do "many" other road racers who use the rear brake.

 

racer

[Cobie Fair]

Pretty sure it was Doohan that was the first, then Duhamel here in the US used it I think for a while too.

 

Yes, it was Doohan and DuHamel followed suit when he broke his leg, too. DuHamel liked it so much he kept the thumb lever after his leg healed. I don't recall if Doohan's leg ever healed enough to effectively use the pedal again.

 

 

Nicolo Canepa, Ducati's motogp rookie is having to ride with a thumb brake on his GP9 as his size 10 feet are too big to effectively operate the rear brrake with his foot at max lean angle!

 

is he really using it at max lean?

 

I've got a bunch of coaches with bigger feet than that, but I don't think they use the rear brake at all.

 

C

[stuman]

Racer, I'm done. You obviously feel what you recommend is the only "right" way to perform a given technique and don't really want to listen to what others have to say. I stand behind everything I have posted on this thread and am not "backing off" anything that I have posted or implied.

 

 

I find your condescending tone insulting and really don't care to continue debating this with you.

[Jaybird180]

Pretty sure it was Doohan that was the first, then Duhamel here in the US used it I think for a while too.

 

Yes, it was Doohan and DuHamel followed suit when he broke his leg, too. DuHamel liked it so much he kept the thumb lever after his leg healed. I don't recall if Doohan's leg ever healed enough to effectively use the pedal again.

 

 

Nicolo Canepa, Ducati's motogp rookie is having to ride with a thumb brake on his GP9 as his size 10 feet are too big to effectively operate the rear brrake with his foot at max lean angle!

 

is he really using it at max lean?

 

I've got a bunch of coaches with bigger feet than that, but I don't think they use the rear brake at all.

 

C

I wear 12 US. But since I can't get motorcycle boots that size (haven't tried more brands) I wear 12.5 and don't have a braking problem. But then again, I've never tried to use rear brake in a full lean either. I have on occasion used rear brake to help tighten a line. (bait)

[Jaybird180]

Racer, I'm done. You obviously feel what you recommend is the only "right" way to perform a given technique and don't really want to listen to what others have to say. I stand behind everything I have posted on this thread and am not "backing off" anything that I have posted or implied.

 

 

I find your condescending tone insulting and really don't care to continue debating this with you.

(mischeviously egging it on) I say: Take it to the track and let the laptimes speak.

[stuman]

In responce to the orignial poster's question how is this done, I thought I would post another opinion.

 

Here is an excerpt from and article written by Andy Ibbott. Andy is the head of our UK school and has written a couple books on riding.

 

 

 

Backing it in

It's one of the most spectacular images in motorcycle racing and there seems to be only a handful of riders that can do it - that is the ability to 'back it in' or slide the rear wheel into a turn. But why do it? None of these riders seem to be any quicker than the rest of the field so what is the point?

In theory, it squares off the corner completely when combined with a power slide on the exit. It's a bit like a rally car where the vehicle is sideways on the way in so it can be pointing up the track as soon as the exit of the corner comes into view. That's easier to do in a car as it has four points of balance in each corner, its wheels.

A bike only has the two so there is a hell of a lot more skill required to get the bike sideways without it high siding the rider into the green stuff.

The exception to the rule is Super Moto where the speeds are slower, the corners tighter and the bikes more set up for this kind of riding.

 

The ideal is to keep the rear wheel spinning but going at a slower road speed that the rest of the bike. If the rear wheel is locked then the bike soon goes completely out of control, but if it is still turning the gyroscopic effect of the bigger rear wheel keeps the bike balanced and under control. But it's a fine line…

On questioning several World-class riders on the technique there seems to be two ways you can get the bike to be unbalanced on the way into the corner.

 

Use the rear brake

Use the engine's braking power

 

There are pros and cons to both and the answer lies in using both of them together. Using the rear brake alone is the more difficult of the two, as it requires an extra ordinary amount of concentration. Too much and the back end will come round too far and result in a crash. Too little and the effect is not enough. While feathering the rear you will need to be hard on the front brakes too. After all, you are approaching a corner and need to set your speed. Hard on the front makes the weight of the bike transfer to the front which is good as it makes the back of the bike lighter and therefore making it much easier to breakaway.

So far so good, the bike is out of line as you enter the first part of the corner. Now comes the hard part. You need to get the bike turned (leant over remembering that the more you lean the less grip you have) and release the pressure on the brake slowly enough that the tyre doesn't suddenly grip and highside you.

As you might have already worked out this is going to be easier to do on left-handers than on rights. On right-handers you will need to be able to get off the brake and into a knee down position as or before you turn the bike. This will be easier if you have a thumb operated rear brake. On top of all this you still have the front brake to control, the throttle, you need to looking into the turn, spot your reference points, set your body position as well as another half dozen other operating controls.

 

The other, 'easier' way is to over-rev the engine and use that as your brake. When you get into the braking zone rather than smoothly blipping the engine and changing down each gear with engine revs to match your road speed you just go for one big change and over rev the motor. This has the same effect as jumping on the rear brake and will cause massive rear end chatter if you just dumped the clutch.

 

The skill here is to feed the clutch out and control the slide and judder. If done right the transition from braking to power is smooth as you should be in the correct gear and revs if you did it right. The downside is you can over rev the engine to the point it will blow up. Remember that rev limiters only work on the way up the range and not on the downshift.

The other advantage of using the 'back-it-in' technique on the way in is that the bike becomes wider on the outside of the turn and could block someone trying to get around you. However, the inside of the turn is still wide open although you could get in tighter to the inside of the track if the whole plan worked out as you will be able to pull a very tight line.

 

Overall it looks very good but it is used less and less for road racing. But the backing it in Gods, Super Moto riders, use it to full effect and they use a combination of rear brake and downshifting.

 

So the ideal is to start to turn, this provides the lean angle to allow the bike to step out to correct side. Then brake using front and rear at the same time. And now downshift quickly and let the clutch out. See, it sounds so simple on paper…

[Cobie Fair]

Racer, I'm done. You obviously feel what you recommend is the only "right" way to perform a given technique and don't really want to listen to what others have to say. I stand behind everything I have posted on this thread and am not "backing off" anything that I have posted or implied.

 

 

I find your condescending tone insulting and really don't care to continue debating this with you.

 

Racer--

 

I have looked at your comments and found them to be as Stuman states. Stuman is one of the top coaches in the world, Class IVA. He coached full time for me for several years, coached for both of our branch schools, (UK and OZ) even was a coach for the wheelie school. Highly qualified is an understatement.

 

I have privately asked you to be more polite on this forum, 2 times, after recieving PM's on your attitude. I know of 2 more from the recent exchange with Stuman. I don't like being a cop, and mostly people can work out things they want to talk about, if their manners are good. Even if they don't agree. But if you cannot figure out how to let people express their own viewpoints without slamming them for it--making them appear stupid or wrong, I'm going to suspend you. There will be no further warnings.

 

One aspect of the forum population that we are trying to get involved are the ones that don't post as much, if at all. If they believe that a knowledgeable person like Stuman is going to get ripped up, they just might not want to post and stick their necks out, and that's not the kind of tone we want here. People generally learn better when a lighter tone is used.

 

Regards,

 

Cobie Fair

Chief Riding Coach Worldwide

[stuman]

Here's another artical about backing it in from a supermoto magazine.

 

http://www.supermotoracer.com/SMR%20Tech%2...s2_backitin.pdf

[racer]

Racer, I'm done. You obviously feel what you recommend is the only "right" way to perform a given technique and don't really want to listen to what others have to say. I stand behind everything I have posted on this thread and am not "backing off" anything that I have posted or implied.

 

 

I find your condescending tone insulting and really don't care to continue debating this with you.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about, Stuman. Oddly enough, I think you sound condescending and snide. Especially your post to acebobby in this thread.

 

"Whatever you say dude, ..." etc.

 

In any case, you sound upset. Perhaps a time out would help.

[racer]

Racer, I'm done. You obviously feel what you recommend is the only "right" way to perform a given technique and don't really want to listen to what others have to say. I stand behind everything I have posted on this thread and am not "backing off" anything that I have posted or implied.

 

 

I find your condescending tone insulting and really don't care to continue debating this with you.

 

Racer--

 

I have looked at your comments and found them to be as Stuman states. Stuman is one of the top coaches in the world, Class IVA. He coached full time for me for several years, coached for both of our branch schools, (UK and OZ) even was a coach for the wheelie school. Highly qualified is an understatement.

 

I have privately asked you to be more polite on this forum, 2 times, after recieving PM's on your attitude. I know of 2 more from the recent exchange with Stuman. I don't like being a cop, and mostly people can work out things they want to talk about, if their manners are good. Even if they don't agree. But if you cannot figure out how to let people express their own viewpoints without slamming them for it--making them appear stupid or wrong, I'm going to suspend you. There will be no further warnings.

 

One aspect of the forum population that we are trying to get involved are the ones that don't post as much, if at all. If they believe that a knowledgeable person like Stuman is going to get ripped up, they just might not want to post and stick their necks out, and that's not the kind of tone we want here. People generally learn better when a lighter tone is used.

 

Regards,

 

Cobie Fair

Chief Riding Coach Worldwide

You are entitled to your opinion and you are the chief. In no way would I attempt to challenge your authority. That said...

 

Although I have repeatedly requested specific examples of what you are talking about in private, you refuse to respond and continue to offer these vague, generalized, non-specific, unsupported characterizations and strawman ad hominem.

 

Whatever. When you can behave like an adult and treat me like an adult and discuss the matter like an adult, perhaps we will get somewhere.

 

As long as you continue to disrespect me privately and publicly I see little chance of being able to make the changes you allude to.

 

Peace.

[Cobie Fair]

Dear All,

 

I'm suspending Racer, we don't seem to have the same ideas on how communication should happen, and the manners that are required on this forum. If Racer would like to communicate, he can e-maiil me personally. cobie@superbikeschool.com

 

We want all to feel they can participate and we really like to know what the members think and also what they want to know. Forums have a great potential for communication and getting information out, and all should feel welcome (at least that's our view!).

 

I think we have a great forum, would like to make it even better (partly selfish, I learn stuff up here all the time). A thread was just started on protection, hoping that leads to some great info. (OK, I did wonder at first what it was about...not sex related).

 

So please post away!

 

Best,

 

Cobie Fair

Chief Riding Coach

[Jaybird180]

A thread was just started on protection, hoping that leads to some great info. (OK, I did wonder at first what it was about...not sex related).

Tease (LOL)