Jump to content

Reference Points


acebobby

Recommended Posts

Absolutely can. There is no consistency though. It would be a continuous weak corner on the track, and riding at a high percentile pace would be potentially disasterous.

 

Here's a point on this: how can one go through a turn (and not run off the track) without some kind of reference?

 

 

The short answer could be : "Experience". The rider would use their previous experience as a reference.

 

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 77
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

You can call whatever you want an RP, but I ride my bike almost daily, and guarantee that I can get to work, which has plenty of turns, without RP's.

On the track I took a particular corner without RP's for a long time. I came up with them later, and I was doing that track without RP's for such a long time, and was so inconsistent in that corner that it still makes me nervous, but I still made it without an RP. You just have to look ahead of the bike.

Next time you go riding on a highway, the transfers to another highway is usually a long corner. No RP there. Just look ahead of the bike. The faster you go, the farther ahead you look. Call it what you want, but the bike still turns. It can be done on the track as well. Just by keeping your head in a corner the bike will turn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... I was doing that track without RP's for such a long time, and was so inconsistent in that corner that it still makes me nervous, but I still made it without an RP.

Your words Sir.

Yes. And my argument is that you can make it around a track without RP's. Thanks for the help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, I'm going to press you guys a little on this one.

 

Could a rider get around a turn (say even going slowly) without any RP's?

 

C

 

I think you always have reference points to some extent in every area in your life, like simply how do you know your way home without using reference points. if you gave someone directions to your house, you are giving them a list of reference points!

Back to the track, of course there are the obvious R.P's like the corner going right tells you its time to turn right, I'm sure if you described a track or your favourite corner to someone, you would describe it using a list of reference points.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can call whatever you want an RP, but I ride my bike almost daily, and guarantee that I can get to work, which has plenty of turns, without RP's.

On the track I took a particular corner without RP's for a long time. I came up with them later, and I was doing that track without RP's for such a long time, and was so inconsistent in that corner that it still makes me nervous, but I still made it without an RP. You just have to look ahead of the bike.

Next time you go riding on a highway, the transfers to another highway is usually a long corner. No RP there. Just look ahead of the bike. The faster you go, the farther ahead you look. Call it what you want, but the bike still turns. It can be done on the track as well. Just by keeping your head in a corner the bike will turn.

 

OK, let's have a look at this, humor me for moment. Let's imagine a situation with truly no references. Flat piece of asphalt, no markings, skid or oil marks, 50 miles square. One is dropped in the center, say Scottie beamed you there. Would that be a little disorienting?

 

How does one even know he is on a road if there isn't some kind of reference?

 

C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can call whatever you want an RP, but I ride my bike almost daily, and guarantee that I can get to work, which has plenty of turns, without RP's.

On the track I took a particular corner without RP's for a long time. I came up with them later, and I was doing that track without RP's for such a long time, and was so inconsistent in that corner that it still makes me nervous, but I still made it without an RP. You just have to look ahead of the bike.

Next time you go riding on a highway, the transfers to another highway is usually a long corner. No RP there. Just look ahead of the bike. The faster you go, the farther ahead you look. Call it what you want, but the bike still turns. It can be done on the track as well. Just by keeping your head in a corner the bike will turn.

 

OK, let's have a look at this, humor me for moment. Let's imagine a situation with truly no references. Flat piece of asphalt, no markings, skid or oil marks, 50 miles square. One is dropped in the center, say Scottie beamed you there. Would that be a little disorienting?

 

How does one even know he is on a road if there isn't some kind of reference?

 

C

He's on asphalt. Kidding. I can still remember my first trackday, and think about it often when I watch the beginners tooling around the track. Granted, if a person rides around the track (I couldn't have told you what an RP was when I first started, and didn't look for points but just rode around the track) and one is shown RP's, the one who has RP's will be faster after just a session.

An RP would have to be defined to continue any discussion to clarify whether it's needed or not. I'm starting to read that someone even considers a corner an RP. In big sweeping corners I just get my head into it, and have nothing to focus on. I don't have an RP to speak of.

I can't remember where it's at, but somewhere in TOTW 2, I've read that abandoning RP's is done. I can't remember where it's at, so I can't clarify it's meaning, but I couldn't read anything about finding new RP's, just that ditching them is acceptable.

A motorcycle can turn without an RP, and it can get around a track without them. I don't even know if I could ride a new track without searching for RP's anymore, but I do know that I ride new roads without knowing RP's, and am able to make it to the end.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can call whatever you want an RP, but I ride my bike almost daily, and guarantee that I can get to work, which has plenty of turns, without RP's.

On the track I took a particular corner without RP's for a long time. I came up with them later, and I was doing that track without RP's for such a long time, and was so inconsistent in that corner that it still makes me nervous, but I still made it without an RP. You just have to look ahead of the bike.

Next time you go riding on a highway, the transfers to another highway is usually a long corner. No RP there. Just look ahead of the bike. The faster you go, the farther ahead you look. Call it what you want, but the bike still turns. It can be done on the track as well. Just by keeping your head in a corner the bike will turn.

 

OK, let's have a look at this, humor me for moment. Let's imagine a situation with truly no references. Flat piece of asphalt, no markings, skid or oil marks, 50 miles square. One is dropped in the center, say Scottie beamed you there. Would that be a little disorienting?

 

How does one even know he is on a road if there isn't some kind of reference?

 

C

 

This question is messing with my head now!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do know that I ride new roads without knowing RP's, and am able to make it to the end.

 

Hub;

 

I would submit that a rider's acquired knowledge about corner types is what you (we) rely upon when we ride a road for the first time. You (we) may not be conscious of using reference points but I believe we substitute what's on that new road with similar points from previously ridden roads to get us through this new experience...

 

(I think...)

 

Kevin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can call whatever you want an RP, but I ride my bike almost daily, and guarantee that I can get to work, which has plenty of turns, without RP's.

On the track I took a particular corner without RP's for a long time. I came up with them later, and I was doing that track without RP's for such a long time, and was so inconsistent in that corner that it still makes me nervous, but I still made it without an RP. You just have to look ahead of the bike.

Next time you go riding on a highway, the transfers to another highway is usually a long corner. No RP there. Just look ahead of the bike. The faster you go, the farther ahead you look. Call it what you want, but the bike still turns. It can be done on the track as well. Just by keeping your head in a corner the bike will turn.

 

OK, let's have a look at this, humor me for moment. Let's imagine a situation with truly no references. Flat piece of asphalt, no markings, skid or oil marks, 50 miles square. One is dropped in the center, say Scottie beamed you there. Would that be a little disorienting?

 

How does one even know he is on a road if there isn't some kind of reference?

 

C

I was doing some thinking on this yesterday as I drove to a friends home from work lastnight. It was dark, raining cats and dogs and I didn't know the way. I had to rely on my GPS to get me there. On top of all of this my wipers SUCK major scum in cold weather. It was 32*F lastnight (the temperature that water freezes kiddies) and the glare from the cars approaching from the other direction on the narrow, twisty road increased the pucker factor.

 

I was missing MAJOR reference points on this one. Nevermind the fact that my attention was divided to navigating, visibility, traction monitoring...Oh and that I was late to the meeting and was on the phone working with customer service to fix a situation where I was being overbilled (yes, I was using my Bluetooth- I'm not a total moron).

 

Who thinks my driving was smooth and comfortable? Think it would have been easier if I knew where the heck I was going?

 

For comparison, the trip home was a bit worse, but I could zoom, zoom because I knew the way. :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hub (et al),

 

Good question, we should define RP. I'm at home, don't have my Twist 1 with me, anyone? Let's say for now, that it was something a person chose, and put some value on it, some meaning. Like, "the white line is the edge, let's get 4 feet off that going into this next left hander."

 

What if RP's were fairly natural for a person to find, when they had enough time? Could a person just do it with out thinking? How about when you walk into your house at night, and the lights are off? Can you still find the light switch? What about if you leave the lights off, and crawl into bed? (I get home late from the track often, don't want to wake up the family). Can you do it without knocking over the bedside lamp, or running in to the bed? Is one using RP's in this instance?

 

JB--good description of not being able to see the RP's well in those conditions.

 

It rains in CA sometimes...not very much though :)

 

C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can call whatever you want an RP, but I ride my bike almost daily, and guarantee that I can get to work, which has plenty of turns, without RP's.

On the track I took a particular corner without RP's for a long time. I came up with them later, and I was doing that track without RP's for such a long time, and was so inconsistent in that corner that it still makes me nervous, but I still made it without an RP. You just have to look ahead of the bike.

Next time you go riding on a highway, the transfers to another highway is usually a long corner. No RP there. Just look ahead of the bike. The faster you go, the farther ahead you look. Call it what you want, but the bike still turns. It can be done on the track as well. Just by keeping your head in a corner the bike will turn.

 

OK, let's have a look at this, humor me for moment. Let's imagine a situation with truly no references. Flat piece of asphalt, no markings, skid or oil marks, 50 miles square. One is dropped in the center, say Scottie beamed you there. Would that be a little disorienting?

 

How does one even know he is on a road if there isn't some kind of reference?

 

C

He's on asphalt. Kidding. I can still remember my first trackday, and think about it often when I watch the beginners tooling around the track. Granted, if a person rides around the track (I couldn't have told you what an RP was when I first started, and didn't look for points but just rode around the track) and one is shown RP's, the one who has RP's will be faster after just a session.

An RP would have to be defined to continue any discussion to clarify whether it's needed or not. I'm starting to read that someone even considers a corner an RP. In big sweeping corners I just get my head into it, and have nothing to focus on. I don't have an RP to speak of.

I can't remember where it's at, but somewhere in TOTW 2, I've read that abandoning RP's is done. I can't remember where it's at, so I can't clarify it's meaning, but I couldn't read anything about finding new RP's, just that ditching them is acceptable.

A motorcycle can turn without an RP, and it can get around a track without them. I don't even know if I could ride a new track without searching for RP's anymore, but I do know that I ride new roads without knowing RP's, and am able to make it to the end.

 

I think there are riders who look for a complete picture as the reference instead of specific individual points; more along the lines of "when I see this picture, I make my turn". Example on a curving freeway ramp with guardrails, you may remember from experience that at a certain place, you are able to see far enough ahead to know whether there are stopped cars, and you know at that point you can roll on the gas. That may seem a lot different from using a little hole in the pavement, but it still works as a reference to define WHERE you are relative to the rest of the world. Another example, you may know you are in the "middle" of your lane. Without the painted lines as a reference, how would you know you were in the middle? The paint becomes a reference. In a broad sense, you can use anything that does the job of telling you where you are, as long as you can see it and it isn't moving around (like another rider). And of course it has to have some meaning to you - like "Oh, there's First National Bank, that means I'm halfway home from work". That's a lot different from turning on a X mark on the track, but to me, it still fits the definition of a reference point.

 

Personally, I find that as I get to know a track better and better, the specific small reference points become less necessary to me because I now am familiar with a whole picture of the turn and could still make my turn point even if the pavement flaw or skid mark I used to use went away. I think maybe that is what's meant by "abandoning RPs".

 

Definitely when I am learning a track OR trying to make changes in my riding, very specific reference points are a great confidence tool because I know FOR SURE that I am EXACTLY where I should be, not runnning wide, etc., ESPECIALLY if some of the turns are similar looking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What if RP's were fairly natural for a person to find, when they had enough time? Could a person just do it with out thinking? How about when you walk into your house at night, and the lights are off? Can you still find the light switch? What about if you leave the lights off, and crawl into bed? (I get home late from the track often, don't want to wake up the family). Can you do it without knocking over the bedside lamp, or running in to the bed? Is one using RP's in this instance?

 

 

C

I think a rider needs to have an RP and experience with them before he can start riding off of his RP's. We take our first trips down roads and around tracks without RP's. Track is easier, because there is a good starting point in what has been already established turn points, usually in the form of cones or track markings. You can say that you already HAVE RP's to use, but take away all the cones and rumble strips, and you'll still be able to find something after a few laps, but you can't just start finding points without knowing the turn. Or can you?

The reference to being in a dark room brings up a question: if in a completely dark room, are you using RP's or experience to maneuver through the house?

Sorry Kevin, but my first couple trips down a road is spent establishing and tweaking RP's. I know how a turn is going to work from experience, but I have no physical reference to speak of. I'm watching the road for bumps and cracks to make sure I can go safely at faster speeds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reference to being in a dark room brings up a question: if in a completely dark room, are you using RP's or experience to maneuver through the house?

 

You start at one end of the room and go X number of paces, turn and go X number of paces. Those are RPs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there are riders who look for a complete picture as the reference instead of specific individual points; more along the lines of "when I see this picture, I make my turn".

This is the way I think about it, just the shape of the track and I envision a line fitted with the edges of the tracks and pavements marks. I don't think of "4 feet from the edge" explicitly, just "here". I'm pretty new to all this but I found this works for me at my level of riding. People are fairly visual thinkers, especially men. The ability of humans to function in space is phenomenal if you think about it- we use reference points all the time, like when typing on the computer for these messages!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there are riders who look for a complete picture as the reference instead of specific individual points; more along the lines of "when I see this picture, I make my turn".

This is the way I think about it, just the shape of the track and I envision a line fitted with the edges of the tracks and pavements marks. I don't think of "4 feet from the edge" explicitly, just "here". I'm pretty new to all this but I found this works for me at my level of riding. People are fairly visual thinkers, especially men. The ability of humans to function in space is phenomenal if you think about it- we use reference points all the time, like when typing on the computer for these messages!

 

I think you're on to something, we do use them and then stopping and having to think about something that we do naturally.

 

Back to Hub...in a dark room, I was thinking one had a little light, but even then, my first reference is simply the door (and using paces like JB, but haven't bother to count).

 

C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think 2 seperate discussions started taking place. Some are talking about reference points as in knowing where they are on the track. ie. after that cone is a right turn, then after this hill is a left turn. I think what hubbard is talking about is using reference points as braking, turning, and throttle markers. ie, 1st cone brake, 3rd cone turn in, crack in pavement start turning the throttle.

 

Everybody needs reference to stay on the track. I wouldn't necessarily call them reference 'points' though. Could be the wall, end of the asphalt, white line, rumble strip, etc. How does one go fast and consistant? You need to use reference points in terms of when to brake, turn, and accelerate. Without them, you'll always be braking and turning at a different part of the corner and the lap times would flucuate.

 

One of the problems I had was as I got faster in one corner, it messed up my braking marker on the next corner because I was going at a much greater speed. For me, it was definitely a good problem to have because it was a sign of improvement in the corner. Some corners would be fixed within a lap, others I'm still having trouble tying all of it together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the problems I had was as I got faster in one corner, it messed up my braking marker on the next corner because I was going at a much greater speed. For me, it was definitely a good problem to have because it was a sign of improvement in the corner. Some corners would be fixed within a lap, others I'm still having trouble tying all of it together.

John;

If your exit speed from one corner was too high for entering the following corner it suggests that the corners are linked. If the time you made up in 1 was at the expense of 2 then you probably have a zero sum game here from a lap time perspective. Wouldn't your lap times improve if your exit speed from the first allowed you to get through the following corner in the least amount of time?

 

For example, the left and right portions of the corkscrew at Laguna Seca are clearly linked by their proximity to each other but there are many other corner combinations that are less obvious but just as connected. T's 4-7 at VIR North, Moss's Corners at Mosport, T's 1, 1A and 2 at Loudon to name a few. The key is that if you blow the entry to any of these combinations it will affect your time (and likely your lines and speed) through the entire sequence of linked corners; maybe if you re-examined how to attack these sections of that track together rather than in sequence you will find a quicker way through this section of the track?

 

Kevin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So then we have reference points all around us not just on the track, but on the way to the track, on the way to the shops and pretty much any time we go anywhere, but lets concentrate on the track.

Have you all done the stopwatch test on page 30 in TOTW, this is good for finding out how well you know a track, I have done it with my local track (knockhill), this is an easy track since its so short, apparently if your in your head lap is quicker or slower than a real lap it means you dont have enough RP's! The thing I realised was that my knowledge of what direction the turns went were guiding my lap in my head, I kept trying it, gradually remembering things about the track, the bridge up the main straight, I know that its safe to be on the gas and locate my braking marker as I go under the bridge, I also remember that at the chicane if you stay to the left you can clip the kerb and straight through it without having to steer (not possible in a car), and I also remember a dip in the track down the back straight where I always wait till just after it to get on the brakes for the hairpin because its very unsettling to go over it on the brakes, The more I try this the more little things I am remembering and now I cant wait to get back on that track.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hub,

 

Even when you are just crusing around a track, and you come to a corner, what tells you to turn? If nothing tells you to turn, wouldn't you just continue to go straight?

 

Thinking about the dark house ex. What if you are walking up steps? Most likely you haven't counted the steps, do you find yourself tryin to take that next step at the top? Or does having you hand on the handrail, and feeling that stop tell you where you are?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think 2 seperate discussions started taking place. Some are talking about reference points as in knowing where they are on the track. ie. after that cone is a right turn, then after this hill is a left turn. I think what hubbard is talking about is using reference points as braking, turning, and throttle markers. ie, 1st cone brake, 3rd cone turn in, crack in pavement start turning the throttle.

 

Everybody needs reference to stay on the track. I wouldn't necessarily call them reference 'points' though. Could be the wall, end of the asphalt, white line, rumble strip, etc. How does one go fast and consistant? You need to use reference points in terms of when to brake, turn, and accelerate. Without them, you'll always be braking and turning at a different part of the corner and the lap times would flucuate.

 

One of the problems I had was as I got faster in one corner, it messed up my braking marker on the next corner because I was going at a much greater speed. For me, it was definitely a good problem to have because it was a sign of improvement in the corner. Some corners would be fixed within a lap, others I'm still having trouble tying all of it together.

 

Hi Johnk,

 

Above you mentioen you wouldn't call them reference points--what would/could they be called?

 

C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If your exit speed from one corner was too high for entering the following corner it suggests that the corners are linked. If the time you made up in 1 was at the expense of 2 then you probably have a zero sum game here from a lap time perspective. Wouldn't your lap times improve if your exit speed from the first allowed you to get through the following corner in the least amount of time?

 

For example, the left and right portions of the corkscrew at Laguna Seca are clearly linked by their proximity to each other but there are many other corner combinations that are less obvious but just as connected. T's 4-7 at VIR North, Moss's Corners at Mosport, T's 1, 1A and 2 at Loudon to name a few. The key is that if you blow the entry to any of these combinations it will affect your time (and likely your lines and speed) through the entire sequence of linked corners; maybe if you re-examined how to attack these sections of that track together rather than in sequence you will find a quicker way through this section of the track?

 

Kevin

 

 

True. I have time to get full throttle for a second or two before I get on the brakes so I have room for adjustments. I just haven’t been able to find a braking point to match the extra speed yet. I haven’t been there in a while so I’m definitely looking forward to the next time I get out there. Overall, my lap time got a little faster but I feel my line is just sloppy in that 2nd corner. I know it can be done better.

 

Good point on re-examining the entire section of the track. Now that I think about it, how well I do in that section really depends on the 1st corner. Definitely something to work on next time out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Johnk,

 

Above you mentioen you wouldn't call them reference points--what would/could they be called?

 

C

Hey Cobie.

 

Maybe boundries? I guess it can be called anything, including reference points, but the difference is how it's used. You can look at the wall and know to stay within a certain area but you have to pick a spot on that wall to use it as a reference point. In terms of the track, I tend to think of reference points as a specific point to begin braking, turning, and accelerating. From experience, you can see a corner coming up and know when to brake. Sort of like when a street rider begins to brake for a red light. You know approximately how much distance is needed to slow down to the desired speed but it wont be consistant without that particular spot that tells you to brake.

 

edit - I just read what I wrote and its like trying to define a word using that same word. lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still don't understand how it's thought that we need RP's to get around a track. I'll try to explain what I think an RP is. When I'm ending a straight, I pay attention to the right side of my vision, and as soon as the tires are out of site, I straighten up, brake, and downshift twice (4th to 2nd). When I get to cone #2, I start releasing my clutch. When I get across the change in pavement I dip the bike.

 

RP's:

The tires, cone #2, the change in pavement.

 

I can get around a track without RP's. Maybe the track ending straight ahead, but continuing to the right (a right hand turn) could be considered an RP? Not trying to be a smarta--, but I'm trying to understand how I'm the only one who thinks RP's aren't required to turn a motorcycle. Can anyone else explain what I'm supposed to be referring to if I'm incorrect in my definition of RP's? I don't have TOTW, and I think RP's are covered in it. Does it have a definition that we can go off of for track riding? I'm working the next few days straight, and can't get to a book store. *Side note...... I don't know how on Earth people work 5 days straight. I'm doing 4 and it's killing me.

If I go around a track without cones, I will make it around without RP's, by my definition, and will slowly pick them up as I go along.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still don't understand how it's thought that we need RP's to get around a track. I'll try to explain what I think an RP is. When I'm ending a straight, I pay attention to the right side of my vision, and as soon as the tires are out of site, I straighten up, brake, and downshift twice (4th to 2nd). When I get to cone #2, I start releasing my clutch. When I get across the change in pavement I dip the bike.

 

RP's:

The tires, cone #2, the change in pavement.

 

I can get around a track without RP's. Maybe the track ending straight ahead, but continuing to the right (a right hand turn) could be considered an RP? Not trying to be a smarta--, but I'm trying to understand how I'm the only one who thinks RP's aren't required to turn a motorcycle. Can anyone else explain what I'm supposed to be referring to if I'm incorrect in my definition of RP's? I don't have TOTW, and I think RP's are covered in it. Does it have a definition that we can go off of for track riding? I'm working the next few days straight, and can't get to a book store. *Side note...... I don't know how on Earth people work 5 days straight. I'm doing 4 and it's killing me.

If I go around a track without cones, I will make it around without RP's, by my definition, and will slowly pick them up as I go along.

 

Hub,

The three RP's that you said you used in that turn sound pretty good. But what, if you wrote it out, would be your definition of a RP?

 

You said that if you go around a track w/out cones, you will make it around w/out RP's, and will slowly pick them up as you go. Is this something that just as you ride a few laps, your RP's just show up all at once? The best ones possible. Or do they in a way come and go as you find better ones/change lines? Maybe you just have a certain spot you hit to turn in and they come one at a time? It seems to me that you are sayin that you don't really use RP's untill the pace quickens a bit.

 

When I think about my own riding, if im looking for RP's, there is still something there that tells me where I am, what I should be doing, and when I should be doing it. I just find myself not thinkin about them really because I am not running at my full pace. The first session the last time I was at the track, I wasn't going real fast my first few laps, but the first time into each turn, I tried to figure out where I was, so when I hit that turn again, I could try to get to that spot and gain some consistency. W/out even thinkin about finding it, I had givin myself a RP. From there I can see where I think the apex is, or maybe the curbing. Not a great RP, cause I don't really want to be looking there cause then I would hit it. But I could start at the point of sayin I wanted to be 2 feet to the left of it.

 

If I dont' have a RP to start my turn in, how would that turn look the next time into it? Different, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...