The Future Of Sports Bikes

[acebobby]

This is a sort of survey question!

 

Some of the new for 2009 sportbikes are coming out now with what could possibly be described as the next step in technological advancement, the CBR1000RR and CBR600RR are coming with the option of ABS and the Ducati 1198S has an 8 setting traction control system, I would like to know all you guys opinion on this!

Note- the ABS on the CBRs is not like the old style pulsing lever type but in tests 3 WSBK riders were only able to outbrake it with a standard bike after numerous laps and attempts at it finally only being able to lap the Quatar circuit less than half a second faster with the standard bike!

I am usually a bit old fashioned when it comes to things like this, like they (the manufacturer's) are taking an element of control away from me but when I saw the videos of the CBR1000RR hard braking on a wet track it got me thinking more of the safety aspect of riding!

Would this (ABS or traction control) give you some of your $10 of attention back to perfect the corner or is it cheating?

 

If you like the idea of these rider aids, which would you prefer and why.

[Jaybird180]

At first read, you had me going there Ace. It turned out to be an interesting topic, and I'm putting my money on that this will be debated on the forum for awhile.

 

So the question as I understand it is, would you like to go harder or stop harder, is that about right?

 

I'm putting mine on braking. I think that riders are more concerned with overbraking than too much gas on corner exit. This could be a life-saver for N00bs. How many have crashed with too much brake?

 

Where did you get that info about the WSBK comparisons and the video of the 1000RR stopping in the wet? Please share your sources.

[Kevin Kane]

I saw the videos of the CBR1000RR hard braking on a wet track it got me thinking more of the safety aspect of riding!

Would this (ABS or traction control) give you some of your $10 of attention back to perfect the corner or is it cheating?

 

If you like the idea of these rider aids, which would you prefer and why.

Ace;

I was trying to seat a new set of front pads one rainy morning in the paddock at a local track by straight line riding and braking. On each pass I increased my speed and my brake lever pressure until the front just washed out without any warning...

I was stunned by how fast my leg came off the peg and I caught the bike at the last instant but I thought that if I were on track and had used too much front brake like that, there would be no way I could have saved it.

 

I would like to have both ABS and TC...I'm not too proud to accept help.

 

Kevin

[acebobby]

Hmm

in tests 3 WSBK riders were only able to outbrake it with a standard bike after numerous laps and attempts at it finally only being able to lap the Quatar circuit less than half a second faster with the standard bike!

 

OK this statement here I read in a magazine, but cant find it anywhere on line so may well be an example of dont believe everything you read, in the magazine they mentioned Johnny Rae, Andrew Pitt and Leon Haslam.

I apologise!

 

here is a vid of the tests where they hard brake in wet and also sand!

[Jaybird180]

Hmm

in tests 3 WSBK riders were only able to outbrake it with a standard bike after numerous laps and attempts at it finally only being able to lap the Quatar circuit less than half a second faster with the standard bike!

 

OK this statement here I read in a magazine, but cant find it anywhere on line so may well be an example of dont believe everything you read, in the magazine they mentioned Johnny Rae, Andrew Pitt and Leon Haslam.

I apologise!

What's the name of the magazine? Perhaps we get it here in the US.

[acebobby]

Hmm

in tests 3 WSBK riders were only able to outbrake it with a standard bike after numerous laps and attempts at it finally only being able to lap the Quatar circuit less than half a second faster with the standard bike!

 

OK this statement here I read in a magazine, but cant find it anywhere on line so may well be an example of dont believe everything you read, in the magazine they mentioned Johnny Rae, Andrew Pitt and Leon Haslam.

I apologise!

What's the name of the magazine? Perhaps we get it here in the US.

 

 

I believe it was bike magazine (borrowed at lunch time from someone at work)! Front cover is a 600RR with the statement Honda makes abs sexy! Thinking of it they may have been referring to the ABS 600RR vs the standard bike!

[Jaybird180]

here is a vid of the tests where they hard brake in wet and also sand!

Hmmmmmmm.......did I hear him wait to get on the gas at exit?

 

He said that it doesn't turn as well because of the extra stability. I wonder if rear brake is the culprit as he reported, or that he's trailbraking and not realizing the added effect of rear along with trailing front brake to the corner exit.

[acebobby]

here is a vid of the tests where they hard brake in wet and also sand!

Hmmmmmmm.......did I hear him wait to get on the gas at exit?

 

He said that it doesn't turn as well because of the extra stability. I wonder if rear brake is the culprit as he reported, or that he's trailbraking and not realizing the added effect of rear along with trailing front brake to the corner exit.

 

Its the combining of the brakes that put me off a little, especially when you press the rear and a bit of front comes on, I guess I'm a bit sceptical about these things but I'm sure Hondas R&D department would not put this out if it wasn't good!

Maybe the extra stability wont let it turn as well since the forks wont dive the same but it is also carrying an extra 10 kg due to the ABS system!

[hubbard_28]

I don't know about the ABS. Unless it's in the wet. Someone like my wife could use it. When I was teaching her braking, she got into a habit of lifting the rear tire. Made me nervous. I don't know how much it gives you on the track. If a newbie got into something deep that isn't just sand sprinkled on concrete, he wouldn't have a chance with ABS.

The TC would be a welcome addition to my bike. Some company online is selling TC for $1,000. It will be a while before I can get a bike that I can throw all sorts of accessories onto. If the economy bounces back, I could afford something like that. The slipper clutch on the Kawi alone is heaven for me.

[Cobie Fair]

I don't know about the ABS. Unless it's in the wet. Someone like my wife could use it. When I was teaching her braking, she got into a habit of lifting the rear tire. Made me nervous. I don't know how much it gives you on the track. If a newbie got into something deep that isn't just sand sprinkled on concrete, he wouldn't have a chance with ABS.

The TC would be a welcome addition to my bike. Some company online is selling TC for $1,000. It will be a while before I can get a bike that I can throw all sorts of accessories onto. If the economy bounces back, I could afford something like that. The slipper clutch on the Kawi alone is heaven for me.

 

ABS, TC, and slipper clutches, all mechanical aids to help the rider. In the end, if they are good enough, it will make the job of riding easier. The older ABS weren't as good as a top rider could do, but if they continue to evolve, won't surprise me if it gets (is) better. I'd like to ride it, and check a few things. Max braking has the rear end light, just skimming the groud, or even off the ground. How's the ABS handle that?

 

Traction control same thing, when it's sorted out, would be a plus for almost all riders. Will it be as entertaining to watch while racing, don't know.

[hubbard_28]

Traction control same thing, when it's sorted out, would be a plus for almost all riders. Will it be as entertaining to watch while racing, don't know.

There are plenty of people against TC in racing, but if it increases safety, I'm alright with it. If they develop that GPS that can remap/adjust (I don't know specifically what it would do) a motorcycle based on which corner a racer is entering, now that I would be against.

[acebobby]

I saw the videos of the CBR1000RR hard braking on a wet track it got me thinking more of the safety aspect of riding!

Would this (ABS or traction control) give you some of your $10 of attention back to perfect the corner or is it cheating?

 

If you like the idea of these rider aids, which would you prefer and why.

Ace;

I was trying to seat a new set of front pads one rainy morning in the paddock at a local track by straight line riding and braking. On each pass I increased my speed and my brake lever pressure until the front just washed out without any warning...

I was stunned by how fast my leg came off the peg and I caught the bike at the last instant but I thought that if I were on track and had used too much front brake like that, there would be no way I could have saved it.

 

I would like to have both ABS and TC...I'm not too proud to accept help.

 

Kevin

 

I am also not to proud to accept help, infact I welcome it and would also like a bike with both ABS and TC, I just moan a bit when they change things, huh who needs a slipper clutch etc, etc! I think that both Honda and Ducati are leading the way in the future of bikes, Ducati advertise their TC as a slightly modified version of Troy Bayliss championship winning system which makes it sound cool, whereas Honda dont advertise it as a race specific ABS system, but a racer in germany is going to enter the national championship on a C-ABS CBR1000RR! The technology we see on bikes over the next few years should be interesting!

[acebobby]

I don't know about the ABS. Unless it's in the wet. Someone like my wife could use it. When I was teaching her braking, she got into a habit of lifting the rear tire. Made me nervous. I don't know how much it gives you on the track. If a newbie got into something deep that isn't just sand sprinkled on concrete, he wouldn't have a chance with ABS.

The TC would be a welcome addition to my bike. Some company online is selling TC for $1,000. It will be a while before I can get a bike that I can throw all sorts of accessories onto. If the economy bounces back, I could afford something like that. The slipper clutch on the Kawi alone is heaven for me.

 

ABS, TC, and slipper clutches, all mechanical aids to help the rider. In the end, if they are good enough, it will make the job of riding easier. The older ABS weren't as good as a top rider could do, but if they continue to evolve, won't surprise me if it gets (is) better. I'd like to ride it, and check a few things. Max braking has the rear end light, just skimming the groud, or even off the ground. How's the ABS handle that?

 

It seems that Honda's Combined-ABS system wont have the bike handling the way you expect, when you apply the front brake the computer also adds some rear brake to keep the bike stable effectively making it not possible to lift the rear off the ground, this means the forks dont dive the same as with stadard front braking changing the geometry at turn point!

[Jaybird180]

I am also not to proud to accept help, infact I welcome it and would also like a bike with both ABS and TC, I just moan a bit when they change things, huh who needs a slipper clutch etc, etc! I think that both Honda and Ducati are leading the way in the future of bikes, Ducati advertise their TC as a slightly modified version of Troy Bayliss championship winning system which makes it sound cool, whereas Honda dont advertise it as a race specific ABS system, but a racer in germany is going to enter the national championship on a C-ABS CBR1000RR! The technology we see on bikes over the next few years should be interesting!

It will be interesting to see how well he does. Many people didn't like the Honda Electronic Steering Damper, but that's been proven too.

[hubbard_28]

ABS, TC, and slipper clutches, all mechanical aids to help the rider. In the end, if they are good enough, it will make the job of riding easier. The older ABS weren't as good as a top rider could do, but if they continue to evolve, won't surprise me if it gets (is) better. I'd like to ride it, and check a few things. Max braking has the rear end light, just skimming the groud, or even off the ground. How's the ABS handle that?

 

It seems that Honda's Combined-ABS system wont have the bike handling the way you expect, when you apply the front brake the computer also adds some rear brake to keep the bike stable effectively making it not possible to lift the rear off the ground, this means the forks dont dive the same as with stadard front braking changing the geometry at turn point!

 

Wouldn't the slight application of rear brake be good? I've sat at some corners watching riders, and have seen some people get SQUIRRELLY coming in. Doesn't the rear brake being applied keep that from happening?

[Jaybird180]

ABS, TC, and slipper clutches, all mechanical aids to help the rider. In the end, if they are good enough, it will make the job of riding easier. The older ABS weren't as good as a top rider could do, but if they continue to evolve, won't surprise me if it gets (is) better. I'd like to ride it, and check a few things. Max braking has the rear end light, just skimming the groud, or even off the ground. How's the ABS handle that?

 

It seems that Honda's Combined-ABS system wont have the bike handling the way you expect, when you apply the front brake the computer also adds some rear brake to keep the bike stable effectively making it not possible to lift the rear off the ground, this means the forks dont dive the same as with stadard front braking changing the geometry at turn point!

 

Wouldn't the slight application of rear brake be good? I've sat at some corners watching riders, and have seen some people get SQUIRRELLY coming in. Doesn't the rear brake being applied keep that from happening?

Depends on WHEN it is applied and how much. IIRC, the Honda C-ABS applies rear brake a few microseconds before front in a hard braking situation, which is smart...compressing the rear, thus allowing the front more room for geometry changes with the idea of lowering CoG and reducing nose dive. Downside is the you lose turn-in speed.

 

Squirrely comes from the rear being light. It can also come from tire profile or rear suspension setting. And don't forget rider extra input causing it too.

[stuman]

Regarding ABS:

 

I did some test riding a while back for a company that was contracted to do a government study on ABS brakes on motorcycles. The study was about stopping a motorcycle on both high mu (friction) and low mu surfaces. The High mu surface was your typical road surface and th low mu was wet driveway sealer (about as slippery as ice if you ask me). The tests were conducted at an air strip where this company had a test area setup (the also use it to do roll over testing for cars).

 

The bikes were outfitted with all sorts of sensors and data acquisition. Radar speed sensors, accelerometers, wheel speed, brake pressure (at the lever and in the line), etc. Way to much stuff on them to go into here. we tested several different bikes from just about every manufacture and many of these were euro models as ABS was not available on some of these bikes in the US. Sample of the bikes:

 

 

 

 

During these tests we would get up to a constant 50mph and then come to a complete stop in a straight line as quickly as we could. We would do these tests with ABS enabled and disabled. We would do several runs, as many as we needed to get what we though was going to be as good as we could do on that test.

 

I got to see all the data and based on that and my own experience I was able to draw some of my own conclusions regarding ABS.

 

 

On a dry surface I can stop a motorcycle fastest using the front brake only and without ABS. This is considering that I know where and when I am going to stop.

 

On a wet surface I can stop way faster using ABS and both brakes.

 

In an emergency where I would have to come to an unexpected stop, I could stop much faster using both brakes and ABS.

 

 

 

After these test the next new bike I purchased was a Kawasaki Concourse. ABS was a $1000 option which I gladdy purchased.

 

ABS rules for riding on the street and stopping straight up and down. I don't think it will save you from lowsiding on the brakes while leaned over, but I have not tested that.

 

I was out at The Streets for Roadracing World's 600 CC comparison test last week. I was the photographer for the event. They had a CBR with ABS and one without ABS. At the end of the day they did some braking tests with both bikes side by side. I'd like to post the results of the tests and photos I have, but you'll have to wait and by the magazine

[Cobie Fair]

I'll be interested to see the results of that!

[acebobby]

Regarding ABS:

 

I did some test riding a while back for a company that was contracted to do a government study on ABS brakes on motorcycles. The study was about stopping a motorcycle on both high mu (friction) and low mu surfaces. The High mu surface was your typical road surface and th low mu was wet driveway sealer (about as slippery as ice if you ask me). The tests were conducted at an air strip where this company had a test area setup (the also use it to do roll over testing for cars).

 

The bikes were outfitted with all sorts of sensors and data acquisition. Radar speed sensors, accelerometers, wheel speed, brake pressure (at the lever and in the line), etc. Way to much stuff on them to go into here. we tested several different bikes from just about every manufacture and many of these were euro models as ABS was not available on some of these bikes in the US. Sample of the bikes:

 

 

 

 

During these tests we would get up to a constant 50mph and then come to a complete stop in a straight line as quickly as we could. We would do these tests with ABS enabled and disabled. We would do several runs, as many as we needed to get what we though was going to be as good as we could do on that test.

 

I got to see all the data and based on that and my own experience I was able to draw some of my own conclusions regarding ABS.

 

 

On a dry surface I can stop a motorcycle fastest using the front brake only and without ABS. This is considering that I know where and when I am going to stop.

 

On a wet surface I can stop way faster using ABS and both brakes.

 

In an emergency where I would have to come to an unexpected stop, I could stop much faster using both brakes and ABS.

 

 

 

After these test the next new bike I purchased was a Kawasaki Concourse. ABS was a $1000 option which I gladdy purchased.

 

ABS rules for riding on the street and stopping straight up and down. I don't think it will save you from lowsiding on the brakes while leaned over, but I have not tested that.

 

I was out at The Streets for Roadracing World's 600 CC comparison test last week. I was the photographer for the event. They had a CBR with ABS and one without ABS. At the end of the day they did some braking tests with both bikes side by side. I'd like to post the results of the tests and photos I have, but you'll have to wait and by the magazine

 

That is some interesting info stuman, thanks for that! The thing that grabs my attention the most is where you say you can stop faster without ABS as long as you know where and when you want to stop! This hints to me that would be after a few laps of repetitive corners (on a track)! making me think that an ABS equipped bike would be best for the road, which is where I do most of my miles! I will be interested in seeing the results between the CBRs!

[chopperbill]

I think TC and ABS are fine on touring bikes when you have the bike fully loaded. It's hard to controll your braking in wet weather under those conditions. But on my sports bike, or race bike, no thanks. Of course if I'm on a 200 HP Moto GP bike then I would want TC.

[hubbard_28]

Or make an ABS system that can be turned off. It sounds, after reading Stuman's post, that ABS would benefit us on the street, but not so much on the track.

..... and I don't know where someone mentioned Launch Control Systems, but they're out of MotoGP. New rule.

[acebobby]

..... and I don't know where someone mentioned Launch Control Systems, but they're out of MotoGP. New rule.

 

Some of the new rules in Moto GP are a bit of a joke and as long as they allow gps mapping it will be posible to begin the map specifically set for coming off the line, just another form of launch control,

[hubbard_28]

..... and I don't know where someone mentioned Launch Control Systems, but they're out of MotoGP. New rule.

 

Some of the new rules in Moto GP are a bit of a joke and as long as they allow gps mapping it will be posible to begin the map specifically set for coming off the line, just another form of launch control,

Are they allowing it? I thought they were just working on it. They still make adjustments while riding.