Cornering Technique, What's Top Priority?

[Wurn]

Hey Cobie are you referring to quick turn into a corner? or quick turn mid corner? I find it hard to turn the bike sharper or quicker while mid corner and on the throttle

 

Good stuff up here.

 

How quickly I can get the bike turned is pretty critical to me. As the ability to turn the bike came up, turns that were an issue/problem at that speed ceased to be. For street riding too, this is way up there.

 

CF

[Cobie Fair]

Hey Cobie are you referring to quick turn into a corner? or quick turn mid corner? I find it hard to turn the bike sharper or quicker while mid corner and on the throttle

 

Good stuff up here.

 

How quickly I can get the bike turned is pretty critical to me. As the ability to turn the bike came up, turns that were an issue/problem at that speed ceased to be. For street riding too, this is way up there.

 

CF

 

Turning quickly from upright to leaned over, or leaned on one side to another side, and how quickly that is/can be done.

 

CF

[bull7419]

O.K. here goes! I don’t even qualify as a newbee, because I don’t own a sport bike, have never raced a sport bike and have very very limited experiences with sport bikes.

 

 

So having recently read Twist of the Wrist II and recently (as in today) applied these or some of these techniques (as many as I could concentrate on at a time) on my police Harley Davidson Road King in a track/race setting (disguised as “Monthly Training”) humbly believe the following in order of importance:

 

 

1. Throttle control- if done right it can save you even when you mess things up from the start.

 

2. Quick proper turn-ins- it sets the line thru the corner and allows you to go deeper and carry more speed at turn in. “The speed you have at turn-entry is free…..” Remember page 108 TOTW II? The sooner you get turned in and settled, the faster you can roll on and get out.

 

3. Proper braking- also allows you to go deeper and carry speed longer before turning in. Knowing your braking limits is also important. Example: At the end of the day I was at threshold braking on more then a few corner entries. I could feel the ABS just starting to engage before coming of the brakes and turning in. Each time I felt I had more space to go deeper before running out wide. Having confidence in my braking allowed me to experiment with the depth I went in. Now I know that if I can quicken my turn-ins, I can brake later, use up more space, go deeper and carry my speed longer before turning-in I can make up some serious ground on the guys that are much faster then me.

 

 

These are my humble thoughts after my first real day applying what I got out of Twist II. Am I onboard with these concepts or do I need to read it again before I hurt myself?

 

 

Please let me know if I am off base, so I can fix it. Thanks!

[Cobie Fair]

Hi Bull,

 

Sounds like you are in the right direction. Turning quikly has its limits with the big Harleys, frames just flex.

 

CF

[bull7419]

Yes, the Harley's do have their limitations, but riding is riding and riding at work is not much like work most of the time. Even with the limits, the book has helped me a great deal already.

[bellevuetlr]

all of them are important. but maybe sense of traction?

[BLSJDS]

For me, after only 1 track day, I rank finding a corner entry speed I am comfortable with & consistently hitting it, along with maintaining WIDE vision as my top two. The other skills seemed to come a lot easier when these two were achieved.

 

I probably struggle with corner entry speed & maintaining wide vision more than most because I do not have binocular vision. My right eye is the dominant eye and my left is very slightly crossed. As such, my depth perception is terrible. I am able to compensate for it (for the most part), but will probably not be able to ride like Rossi anytime soon

 

Hey Cobie - have you ever had anyone in class with this issue? Just curious what your observations were / are.

 

Dan

[Fajita Dave]

I've been racing motocross sense I was 9 years old but I've only been riding sportbikes for a year now. I haven't been on the track yet so I might give some interesting feedback. I have had some help from a friend that has been corner working for CSS at VIR for a few years but I wont mention who it is in case I give some bad answers .

 

1. Untill reading this thread I didn't even think about the visual skills about riding. Looking where you want to be instead of getting fixed on a target spot in the corner is extremly important. If you aren't sure where you are going to be before you get there then you could get in some serious trouble.

 

2. I would have to say is staying relaxed on the handlebars. When I first started riding my sportbike a little faster on public roads then I should have been I would tense up a little bit and the bike would refuse to turn as sharp as I would have liked it to. I was used to slamming on the rear brake and just sliding the rear end around on my dirtbike in a tight corner so not being able to do that was just uncomfortable for me.

 

3. Entry speed and the correct apex is extremly important. If you don't have the right entry speed and apex the exit of the corner is basically reuined hands down. I put entry speed and apex together because combined they are the most important aspects of racing lines to lay down fast lap times.

 

4. Would be throttle control and throttle on point. A smooth progression onto the throttle at the right point without having to back off exiting the corner is critical to getting a good drive and staying under control exiting corners.

 

Quick turning isn't something I've had to do yet so I don't know where to put it in order of importance.

 

Of course sense I don't have any track time I can't be 100% sure of this answer myself.

[Cobie Fair]

For me, after only 1 track day, I rank finding a corner entry speed I am comfortable with & consistently hitting it, along with maintaining WIDE vision as my top two. The other skills seemed to come a lot easier when these two were achieved.

 

I probably struggle with corner entry speed & maintaining wide vision more than most because I do not have binocular vision. My right eye is the dominant eye and my left is very slightly crossed. As such, my depth perception is terrible. I am able to compensate for it (for the most part), but will probably not be able to ride like Rossi anytime soon

 

Hey Cobie - have you ever had anyone in class with this issue? Just curious what your observations were / are.

 

Dan

 

Dan--not sure if this is the exact issue, but I have 2 coaches that are blind in one eye. One is very, very fast, the other is pretty darn fast.

 

I think what Keith covers in the Level 2 classrooms on this gives a different view of the eyes, and what the rider is doing with them--have you done L-2? If not, there is some good info in Twist 2 on this.

 

CF

[Adam06]

Really interesting reading in this thread. We all see it in our own way don't we

 

For what it's worth, in my riding, it's the visuals that rank #1. What you see dictates what you do.

 

Following in a close 2nd is big skids, then wheelies rounds out my top 3 skills in order of importance.

[Bullet]

I have to say, hats of to Cobie for starting this thread, it's been incredibly interesting reading for me as a coach, seeing what students/riders feel. I've personally held back my own thoughts on this, (I do have a view clearly), but I thought I'd hold back.

 

I think my view and that of everyone else varies, and I can only think this has to do with levels of experience, whereby at a certain level of riding things like throttle control are absolutely number 1 priority, but when thats become an automatic thing and people are track riders chasing laptimes, perhaps people's focus moves to something else.

 

Keep them coming guys, very interesting stuff, and reference I'm totally in agreement with many of the posts here on priorities, and some of the descriptions are excellent.

 

Bullet

[BLSJDS]

Dan--not sure if this is the exact issue, but I have 2 coaches that are blind in one eye. One is very, very fast, the other is pretty darn fast.

 

I think what Keith covers in the Level 2 classrooms on this gives a different view of the eyes, and what the rider is doing with them--have you done L-2? If not, there is some good info in Twist 2 on this.

 

CF

 

That's great to hear (not that they are blind in one eye, obviously) that they have been able to achieve that level of riding - it is very much the same issue in that only one eye is responsible for vision.

 

I haven't done level II, but have read (and re-read and re-read) the chapters pertaining to vision and vision drills in Twist 2.

 

Thanks very much (sorry to get a bit off topic)!!

 

Dan

[Cobie Fair]

That's great to hear (not that they are blind in one eye, obviously) that they have been able to achieve that level of riding - it is very much the same issue in that only one eye is responsible for vision.

 

I haven't done level II, but have read (and re-read and re-read) the chapters pertaining to vision and vision drills in Twist 2.

 

Thanks very much (sorry to get a bit off topic)!!

 

Dan

 

Level 2 is pretty unique, it was a real eye opener for me (pathetic pun, I know). One area it completely fixed was riding in traffic and splitting lanes in traffic (legal here, or not illegal maybe).

[abhoy]

Cobie, is this a trick question? Having completed levels 1 & 2 at NJ Thunderbolt with you and Jon as my coach, my cornering technique has improved tremendously.

 

After CSS I mentally reviewed our sessions and everything that was taught. I don't think Keith and his instructors randomly put those lessons and drills in that order. By design, it was very instrumental in taking the students up a level every time we went out on track. So my answer would be the same priority as set in levels 1 & 2.

 

So either I should list them here, or they should take CSS.??

 

Thanks

[Cobie Fair]

Cobie, is this a trick question? Having completed levels 1 & 2 at NJ Thunderbolt with you and Jon as my coach, my cornering technique has improved tremendously.

 

After CSS I mentally reviewed our sessions and everything that was taught. I don't think Keith and his instructors randomly put those lessons and drills in that order. By design, it was very instrumental in taking the students up a level every time we went out on track. So my answer would be the same priority as set in levels 1 & 2.

 

So either I should list them here, or they should take CSS.??

 

Thanks

 

 

YNOT--I agree with you, and the sequence was 100% designed by Keith. He really looked it over and what was the first thing to train, what comes next, etc. More times than I can think of I have had students say, "I need to just now _____" and it was the very next thing they were working on.

 

I don't normally list out what's in the levels, it doesn't really give a full picture, and as you pointed out, it's a sequence that makes sense when you are in it.

 

CF

[harnois]

I have to say, hats of to Cobie for starting this thread, it's been incredibly interesting reading for me as a coach, seeing what students/riders feel. I've personally held back my own thoughts on this, (I do have a view clearly), but I thought I'd hold back.

 

I think my view and that of everyone else varies, and I can only think this has to do with levels of experience, whereby at a certain level of riding things like throttle control are absolutely number 1 priority, but when thats become an automatic thing and people are track riders chasing laptimes, perhaps people's focus moves to something else.

 

Keep them coming guys, very interesting stuff, and reference I'm totally in agreement with many of the posts here on priorities, and some of the descriptions are excellent.

 

Bullet

 

I was thinking this too. It seems many/most of the responses including my own could be summed up as "whatever I'm working on at the time." And it seemed to me that Cobie's question to open this thread was intentionally vague. I mean what's top priority for who? For an expert racer? For a beginner? For a street rider, for a track rider?

 

And are we talking about es turns, or wide sweeping turns, or reducing radius turns, or that really sharp turn at the end of the straight? For sure quick turning seems to me to be practically THE thing that determines how fast you can get through a set of eses. But then coming out of an increasing radius turn it's all about throttle control.

 

A rider hopping on a bike for the very first time in his/her life is probably thinking mostly about how to modulate the clutch and shift gears and remember which levers do what. And in my opinion the very next thing they need to think about is visual skills and avoiding target fixation. And next would that magical stabilizing affect of the throttle.

 

I remember on my first tract day (which was taking level 1 with the school), I was dragging pegs, so at that point my biggest priority became body position, and I had to think a lot about the transitions and how I was holding onto the bike. Now 50-some track days later body position is not something I think about much cos I think it's pretty good and I seem to do it naturally. Then I realized more recently (thanks to some coach input) that I wasn't always looking as far ahead as I could and it was slowing me down, so now visual skills become the thing I have to concentrate on doing differently than I'm used to.

 

I would also like to add that learning to overcome panic reactions is very helpful. The skill of focusing on your task in the midst of a very intense activity is a challenge that I think really keeps me interested in this sport. The faster you go the more intense it gets and yet the more important it is to focus and stay smooth. You find yourself doing things things that laymen think are crazy and you never thought you'd be doing - 160 mph around the kink, hard braking, quick turning, and amongst all that physical effort and speed and subtle sliding and twitching, you know as long as you keep the focus it will all work out.

[bull7419]

I agree! Great topic. I initially said throttle control, but now that I have for the most part corrected that error; I think maybe turn entry point is my priority. This leads to "How quick can I flick (a Harley)? Which will dictate my turn entry point.

 

The point is there is no right or wrong answer. Maybe the question is: What is your top priority at each level? As we improve the priority changes. Impart because or attention is no longer fixed on say "throttle control" because it becomes second nature. However, maybe we haven't master the visual skills required to effectively pick a good turn point?

[acebobby]

I have to say, hats of to Cobie for starting this thread, it's been incredibly interesting reading for me as a coach, seeing what students/riders feel. I've personally held back my own thoughts on this, (I do have a view clearly), but I thought I'd hold back.

 

I think my view and that of everyone else varies, and I can only think this has to do with levels of experience, whereby at a certain level of riding things like throttle control are absolutely number 1 priority, but when thats become an automatic thing and people are track riders chasing laptimes, perhaps people's focus moves to something else.

 

Keep them coming guys, very interesting stuff, and reference I'm totally in agreement with many of the posts here on priorities, and some of the descriptions are excellent.

 

Bullet

 

I was thinking this too. It seems many/most of the responses including my own could be summed up as "whatever I'm working on at the time." And it seemed to me that Cobie's question to open this thread was intentionally vague. I mean what's top priority for who? For an expert racer? For a beginner? For a street rider, for a track rider?

 

And are we talking about es turns, or wide sweeping turns, or reducing radius turns, or that really sharp turn at the end of the straight? For sure quick turning seems to me to be practically THE thing that determines how fast you can get through a set of eses. But then coming out of an increasing radius turn it's all about throttle control.

 

A rider hopping on a bike for the very first time in his/her life is probably thinking mostly about how to modulate the clutch and shift gears and remember which levers do what. And in my opinion the very next thing they need to think about is visual skills and avoiding target fixation. And next would that magical stabilizing affect of the throttle.

 

I remember on my first tract day (which was taking level 1 with the school), I was dragging pegs, so at that point my biggest priority became body position, and I had to think a lot about the transitions and how I was holding onto the bike. Now 50-some track days later body position is not something I think about much cos I think it's pretty good and I seem to do it naturally. Then I realized more recently (thanks to some coach input) that I wasn't always looking as far ahead as I could and it was slowing me down, so now visual skills become the thing I have to concentrate on doing differently than I'm used to.

 

I would also like to add that learning to overcome panic reactions is very helpful. The skill of focusing on your task in the midst of a very intense activity is a challenge that I think really keeps me interested in this sport. The faster you go the more intense it gets and yet the more important it is to focus and stay smooth. You find yourself doing things things that laymen think are crazy and you never thought you'd be doing - 160 mph around the kink, hard braking, quick turning, and amongst all that physical effort and speed and subtle sliding and twitching, you know as long as you keep the focus it will all work out.

 

What you must remember is that the question is Whats Top Priority, and not where do you spend your attention. It is a good question and has brought forward alot of interesting opinions

I myself believe that when Keith sat down and worked out the levels he put them into an order of importance and prioritised the learning procedure from level 1 onwards, So even though I dont spend much attention on it I still have to go with the first lesson throttle control! The funny thing about throttle control is get it wrong at road speeds and it can be quite forgiving, but once you take up track riding good throttle control combined with the ability to overcome SR's will keep your bike stable and if you get it wrong wont be so forgiving at the higher speeds!

Once you have good TC all the other skills are added to this and you will improve, but from a novice trackday guy to the best in the world in WSBK and Moto GP bad throttle control will make it all go very wrong in an instant, it is the foundation skill that only if practiced correctly allows you to work on other techniques such as vision and body position!

[cammyontheback]

Top Priority for me seems to be getting the bike to the best Turn Entry Speed.

 

Followed closely by nailing the proper lean angle, with a single steering input, for the entry speed.

 

For me the "best" Turn Entry Speed is one that provides the most value for the effort.

I want a turn entry speed that doesn't set off my SR, or, in other words, a speed that provides predictable success.

Thats a speed that allows me to set a lean angle and start adding power immediately.

 

IMHO, all the factors of the turn are varibles to the entry speed.

 

(One of the most valuable drills I experienced during level one training at Streets was the NO BRAKES laps in 4th gear.

With the elevation changes I thought this would be a handfull. Not the case. )

 

Right or wrong, you will learn in a hurry. Refinement comes with practice. Has helped a ton in the street riding environment too.

 

Thanks,

Mark

[Cobie Fair]

Thanks Mark, makes sense totally.

 

This has been (still is) an interesting thread to hear what you guys think on this, and why.

 

Keep it coming.

 

CF

[harnois]

I have to say, hats of to Cobie for starting this thread, it's been incredibly interesting reading for me as a coach, seeing what students/riders feel. I've personally held back my own thoughts on this, (I do have a view clearly), but I thought I'd hold back.

 

I think my view and that of everyone else varies, and I can only think this has to do with levels of experience, whereby at a certain level of riding things like throttle control are absolutely number 1 priority, but when thats become an automatic thing and people are track riders chasing laptimes, perhaps people's focus moves to something else.

 

Keep them coming guys, very interesting stuff, and reference I'm totally in agreement with many of the posts here on priorities, and some of the descriptions are excellent.

 

Bullet

 

I was thinking this too. It seems many/most of the responses including my own could be summed up as "whatever I'm working on at the time." And it seemed to me that Cobie's question to open this thread was intentionally vague. I mean what's top priority for who? For an expert racer? For a beginner? For a street rider, for a track rider?

 

And are we talking about es turns, or wide sweeping turns, or reducing radius turns, or that really sharp turn at the end of the straight? For sure quick turning seems to me to be practically THE thing that determines how fast you can get through a set of eses. But then coming out of an increasing radius turn it's all about throttle control.

 

A rider hopping on a bike for the very first time in his/her life is probably thinking mostly about how to modulate the clutch and shift gears and remember which levers do what. And in my opinion the very next thing they need to think about is visual skills and avoiding target fixation. And next would that magical stabilizing affect of the throttle.

 

I remember on my first tract day (which was taking level 1 with the school), I was dragging pegs, so at that point my biggest priority became body position, and I had to think a lot about the transitions and how I was holding onto the bike. Now 50-some track days later body position is not something I think about much cos I think it's pretty good and I seem to do it naturally. Then I realized more recently (thanks to some coach input) that I wasn't always looking as far ahead as I could and it was slowing me down, so now visual skills become the thing I have to concentrate on doing differently than I'm used to.

 

I would also like to add that learning to overcome panic reactions is very helpful. The skill of focusing on your task in the midst of a very intense activity is a challenge that I think really keeps me interested in this sport. The faster you go the more intense it gets and yet the more important it is to focus and stay smooth. You find yourself doing things things that laymen think are crazy and you never thought you'd be doing - 160 mph around the kink, hard braking, quick turning, and amongst all that physical effort and speed and subtle sliding and twitching, you know as long as you keep the focus it will all work out.

 

What you must remember is that the question is Whats Top Priority, and not where do you spend your attention. It is a good question and has brought forward alot of interesting opinions

I myself believe that when Keith sat down and worked out the levels he put them into an order of importance and prioritised the learning procedure from level 1 onwards, So even though I dont spend much attention on it I still have to go with the first lesson throttle control! The funny thing about throttle control is get it wrong at road speeds and it can be quite forgiving, but once you take up track riding good throttle control combined with the ability to overcome SR's will keep your bike stable and if you get it wrong wont be so forgiving at the higher speeds!

Once you have good TC all the other skills are added to this and you will improve, but from a novice trackday guy to the best in the world in WSBK and Moto GP bad throttle control will make it all go very wrong in an instant, it is the foundation skill that only if practiced correctly allows you to work on other techniques such as vision and body position!

 

That's a good point, that "What's top priority" isn't necessarily the same question as "where do you need to spend your attention." But it is also not necessarily the same question as "in what order should the skills be taught." And "What's top priority" is still vague, cos for what? who? A beginner? A top racer? On the track? Or street? In what kind of turn? After reading this thread and thinking about it more, I think visual skills, throttle control, and quick turning (or generally understanding countersteering) all work together and a rider must be decent at all of those before he can be safe at any real speed on the street or track. An easy going street rider as you pointed out can get away with not so great throttle control. Being loose on the bars is a big stability gain and having decent body position so as not to drag parts, these 2 things are a close 2nd once a rider gets up to a certain speed. Is it perhaps a bit pointless to pick one out of those? To be a good racer you'll have to get good at all aspects of riding.

[Bullet]

Top Priority for me seems to be getting the bike to the best Turn Entry Speed.

 

Followed closely by nailing the proper lean angle, with a single steering input, for the entry speed.

 

For me the "best" Turn Entry Speed is one that provides the most value for the effort.

I want a turn entry speed that doesn't set off my SR, or, in other words, a speed that provides predictable success.

Thats a speed that allows me to set a lean angle and start adding power immediately.

 

IMHO, all the factors of the turn are varibles to the entry speed.

 

(One of the most valuable drills I experienced during level one training at Streets was the NO BRAKES laps in 4th gear.

With the elevation changes I thought this would be a handfull. Not the case. )

 

Right or wrong, you will learn in a hurry. Refinement comes with practice. Has helped a ton in the street riding environment too.

 

Thanks,

Mark

 

Hi Mark,

 

Interesting point, and not one I disagree with, but wonder what is it that allows you to set your entry speed? How do you know you've got it right?

 

Bullet

[acebobby]

That's a good point, that "What's top priority" isn't necessarily the same question as "where do you need to spend your attention." But it is also not necessarily the same question as "in what order should the skills be taught." And "What's top priority" is still vague, cos for what? who? A beginner? A top racer? On the track? Or street? In what kind of turn? After reading this thread and thinking about it more, I think visual skills, throttle control, and quick turning (or generally understanding countersteering) all work together and a rider must be decent at all of those before he can be safe at any real speed on the street or track. An easy going street rider as you pointed out can get away with not so great throttle control. Being loose on the bars is a big stability gain and having decent body position so as not to drag parts, these 2 things are a close 2nd once a rider gets up to a certain speed. Is it perhaps a bit pointless to pick one out of those? To be a good racer you'll have to get good at all aspects of riding.

 

Hi harnois

Giving this some more thought you are absolutely right in what you say! Also I was thinking if you prioritised something in your head before a ride out or track session, you would be spending some attention on that specific drill or technique! So that contradicts what I said before

I have a bad habbit of overthinking things but I guess everyone, well everyone on this forums top priority is to improve at riding a bike, no matter what technique we are working on or what section of the twist books we are trying to understand we always have a barrier to improvement and coming home from a trackday knowing that you have improved an area of your riding is a great feeling, only problem is when you do get through a riding barrier there's another usually bigger one waiting for you, then you reread the books and figure out what drills will help you now! Its never ending

[asinn0007]

1. Judging entry speed

2. Staying smooth

3. Rolling on the throttle as soon as possible.

[asinn0007]

The three keys are, IMHO.

 

1. Judging entry speed--staying smooth

2. Finding the right turn-in point

3. Rolling on the throttle as soon as possible.

 

If you misjudge the entry speed, nothing else you can do afterwards could make up for it. This requires visual skills. If the entry speed is too high, you'll charge in, unable to stay smooth, underperforming in one turn or an entire chicane.

 

The turn: Turning point, apex, and quick turn-in are all necessary to proper turning on the street and on the track.

 

Getting on the throttle and rolling on appropriately permits maximum exit speed onto next straight without (hopefully) high-siding or running off the road.

 

All three seem to be fundamental requisites to proper turning on the street and on the track.

 

Andy S.