Cornering Downhill

[cbirston]

I have this problem when exiting clover leafs...If I practice TC by rolling it on smoothly, evenly and consistently, I tend to pick up way too much speed and ru super wide. Entering is not a problem, it's uphill and throttle control feels really good. So how do I get the bike in the 40/60 zone without scaring the ###### out of myself and still applying TC? Being a downhill curve isn't there extra load on the front? I've tried to refer back to the Twist books...and it states that appling rear brake is very tricky. Any and all sugestions are appreciated.

 

Thanks,

BCNU

[636rider]

I have this problem when exiting clover leafs...If I practice TC by rolling it on smoothly, evenly and consistently, I tend to pick up way too much speed and ru super wide. Entering is not a problem, it's uphill and throttle control feels really good. So how do I get the bike in the 40/60 zone without scaring the ###### out of myself and still applying TC? Being a downhill curve isn't there extra load on the front? I've tried to refer back to the Twist books...and it states that appling rear brake is very tricky. Any and all sugestions are appreciated.

 

Thanks,

BCNU

 

Hi BCNU, when you practice TC by rolling it on smoothly, when did you start the rolling on? Start smooth rolling as you start leaning? Start smooth rolling in the middle of leaning? Have you tried to start smooth rolling after you finish leaning (start smooth rolling after complete and reach lean angle)?

Good entry speed, off throttle (not using rear brake yet) and quick turn, complete and reach lean angle, then/and start smooth rolling seems help me. The same downhill turn that used to scare me a lot becomes the turn I can use to pass.

[cbirston]

Hey 636

I crack it on the second I'm leaned over, by mid point I'm starting to go wide at times shutting down the throttle (SR#1) then the bike really unsettles, then I roll it back on again realizing that I used SR#1. I'll give your sugestion a try.

 

Thanks for the advice

BCNU

[Bullet]

I'm afraid I don't know the circuit or the corner as I'm obviously UK based, but perhaps Cobie or one of the other guys around can provide more input thats beneficial.

 

I'll talk about some tech though, and I'll research it a little more for you when I have the bible to hand, but I don't at the moment. Even though the bike will be going downhill, the bike will still be scrubbing speed because of the friction on the front tyre and with it being leaned into the turn. In situations like these, if the corner is very long in duration, rolling on the throttle very early can indeed get you to this problem unless you can achieve this roll on with very gentle throttle application. If you try and roll on too much too soon, you'll definitely run wide in very lng turns and Keith definitely covers this in TWII.

 

Do you think you could acheive such roll on technique or do you think there is something else we could do to stablise the bike for the earlier part of the turn?

 

Bullet

[harnois]

I would try out one or two or all of these things:

 

- turn in later

- enter the turn at a slower speed

- begin throttle roll-on later

 

I am not familiar with the particular track or turn but these are all things I might do differently in a downhill turn vs. other turns. I'm pretty sure I've seen Mr. Code answer a very similar question on here before so you might find it by searching on "downhill" or something along those lines.

[Bullet]

There is something else we could do.....! Just trying to get someone to think about it. Wonder what it could be..?

 

Might find some hints in Keiths article here.... http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=540 and here..... http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=526

 

Bullet

[Thor]

Your problem is it's a cloverleaf. A downhill cloverleaf (in any and every U.S. city I've been in) tightens up at the end to slow you down and straighten the merge lane.

 

There are so many reasons why you shouldn't use a cloverleaf as a measure of your corning ability, that if it isn't obvious to you, there is no sense in me trying to explain it.

[636rider]

Hey 636

I crack it on the second I'm leaned over, by mid point I'm starting to go wide at times shutting down the throttle (SR#1) then the bike really unsettles, then I roll it back on again realizing that I used SR#1. I'll give your sugestion a try.

 

Thanks for the advice

BCNU

Hi BCNU, if I can crack it on the second when leaned over, it means 1) my entry speed is not high enough, I can use higher speed. 2) I do not use full advantage of the throttle-off (which prevent lightening the front) to help the turn, 3) it affects my further transfer body weight to inside front (using hook turn) if needed to further help tightening the turn if wanted. With speed, and crack open a little too earlier will usually make a wide turn.

I believe Keith means "cracking smoothly for maintanence throttle AFTER complete the full lean", ideally without upsetting the suspension.

In CSS level 3, Keith also asks students to go out at the track and intentionally make all types of mistakes, like running wide, miss your turn points, wrong line etc, and then correct it with quick turn, hook turn etc. You will find that drill is helpful to fight SRs.

Hope to hear how you feel and compare the different attempts.

[Bullet]

I believe Keith means "cracking smoothly for maintanence throttle AFTER complete the full lean", ideally without upsetting the suspension.

 

Now that looks like something a little different that might help?

 

Bullet

[cbirston]

WOW...those were great articles, thanks Bullet. Forgive my ignorance all...but is the 40/60 rule even possible on a declining curve? Aren't you always fighting gravity? I'm no mathematician, but because your pitched forward wouldn't the weight transfer be more like 70/30 before applying TC, which leads me to think I would need to be slightly a little more aggressive with TC -yes/no? What if I just cracked the throttle on and 'held' it instead of rolling it on - would the increased speed of forward momentom transfer some of the weight?

 

BCNU

[636rider]

I believe Keith means "cracking smoothly for maintanence throttle AFTER complete the full lean", ideally without upsetting the suspension.

 

Now that looks like something a little different that might help?

 

Bullet

I am not sure it is different or just have not described my understanding well or just try to make the TC easier for myself.

Kieth indicates that there is a particular throttle opening during the lean transition that make the bike feels stable, if say the idling is adjusted to that ideal throttle opening and we can quick turn for the entry speed, is it still need to START apply throttle during lean? or during that fraction of second to compensate for the continuous change of tire contact radii with road? For most of us, the rate of lean is not fast enough to catch up with our applying throttle (if we start applying too much or early) and hence easy to run wide. Will Keith's following drill line 3 an 4, and the target for one lean angle to get 3 can confirm that maintanence throttle happens after full lean? If the idling is not set to that ideal throttle opening, does it mean before reaching full single lean angle, any crack open should not be more than that ideal opening, then after full lean within next fraction of second, we can continue the smooth roll-on?

"Quote:

" Here is a drill to improve your ability to predict your line.

1. Find yourself a curvy road. A familiar one is best. A calm track day would also be perfect.

2. Back off your speed enough so you are certain you won?t run wide. Set your speed that way for each turn you enter.

3. Get the bike fully turned into the corner so you are happy with where it is pointed.

4. Begin your roll-on as soon as possible after #3 is settled.

5. Estimate where exactly you think the bike is going to be at its widest point on the turn?s exit. Don?t choose blind turns to do it. You are trying to predict at what point ahead you will come the. closest to the center line (in right hand corners on the road) or the road?s edge (in left hand corners on the road). Your final and widest exit point.

6. Maintain a fluid, seamless and continuous roll-on throughout the corner.

7. Do not adjust the steering or lean angle of the bike (unless you really have to).

8. Evaluate your estimate from #5. How did you do? How close were you to the point you thought was going to be your exit?

9. Experiment with slower and/or more aggressive roll-ons until you get the feel for what it takes for that bike to hold a predictable line." Quote".

It will help me to see the whole process better if there is furth

[Bullet]

I believe Keith means "cracking smoothly for maintanence throttle AFTER complete the full lean", ideally without upsetting the suspension.

 

Now that looks like something a little different that might help?

 

Bullet

I am not sure it is different or just have not described my understanding well or just try to make the TC easier for myself.

Kieth indicates that there is a particular throttle opening during the lean transition that make the bike feels stable, if say the idling is adjusted to that ideal throttle opening and we can quick turn for the entry speed, is it still need to START apply throttle during lean? or during that fraction of second to compensate for the continuous change of tire contact radii with road? For most of us, the rate of lean is not fast enough to catch up with our applying throttle (if we start applying too much or early) and hence easy to run wide. Will Keith's following drill line 3 an 4, and the target for one lean angle to get 3 can confirm that maintanence throttle happens after full lean? If the idling is not set to that ideal throttle opening, does it mean before reaching full single lean angle, any crack open should not be more than that ideal opening, then after full lean within next fraction of second, we can continue the smooth roll-on?

"Quote:

" Here is a drill to improve your ability to predict your line.

1. Find yourself a curvy road. A familiar one is best. A calm track day would also be perfect.

2. Back off your speed enough so you are certain you won?t run wide. Set your speed that way for each turn you enter.

3. Get the bike fully turned into the corner so you are happy with where it is pointed.

4. Begin your roll-on as soon as possible after #3 is settled.

5. Estimate where exactly you think the bike is going to be at its widest point on the turn?s exit. Don?t choose blind turns to do it. You are trying to predict at what point ahead you will come the. closest to the center line (in right hand corners on the road) or the road?s edge (in left hand corners on the road). Your final and widest exit point.

6. Maintain a fluid, seamless and continuous roll-on throughout the corner.

7. Do not adjust the steering or lean angle of the bike (unless you really have to).

8. Evaluate your estimate from #5. How did you do? How close were you to the point you thought was going to be your exit?

9. Experiment with slower and/or more aggressive roll-ons until you get the feel for what it takes for that bike to hold a predictable line." Quote".

It will help me to see the whole process better if there is furth

 

 

I think the answer is reasonably clear from Keith, in points 3 and 4 here. You couldn't really predict the ideal throttle for each corner, and hence you could never get the idle on the throttle to match that all the time, and hence, the only way to get the bike stable it to follow points 3 and 4... The end!

 

Bullet

[harnois]

WOW...those were great articles, thanks Bullet. Forgive my ignorance all...but is the 40/60 rule even possible on a declining curve? Aren't you always fighting gravity? I'm no mathematician, but because your pitched forward wouldn't the weight transfer be more like 70/30 before applying TC, which leads me to think I would need to be slightly a little more aggressive with TC -yes/no? What if I just cracked the throttle on and 'held' it instead of rolling it on - would the increased speed of forward momentom transfer some of the weight?

 

BCNU

 

My personal opinion on this is that you are basically correct, but maybe it's all not as severe or significant as you think. What I mean is you are letting the downhill aspect psych you out when it really isn't that much different.

 

Yeah, if your bike is pointed downhill that will mean more weight on the front. And yeah, the bike may accelerate down a steep hill due to gravity (and the acceleration due to gravity will not add stability). To add stability you have to accelerate the bike with the throttle because that is what makes the downforce transfer to the rear. When you add up the affect of gravity and the affect of your throttle it will mean more acceleration than a flat or uphill turn, but the actual action you take *exiting the turn* is still basically the same - roll it on, and look ahead as much as possible to judge your roll-on rate.

 

I think it's what you do in the first half of the turn that is different due to the downhill... slower entry speed, turn in later, roll-on later, or roll-on less, or hold the throttle flat in the first part of the turn (is that what they mean here by "maintenance throttle" I dunno?).

[cbirston]

Thanks for all your help guys...I think you maybe right Harnios...over thinking the process and 'psyching' myself out. I'll definitley try ALL suggestions, but not for a while though. I attended a weekend track day, rode the track all day Sat & Sun applying the drills from L1 feeling pretty good (even had one of the fast guys come and shake my hand, commenting on how smooth I was). Anyway, decided to ride my bike home and part way down the hwy my bag fell off the bike. So I pulled over on the shoulder to go get it...as I swung my leg over the bike, my pant leg got caught on something (bungee/peg?) and down I go... rt hip hit the pavement and Lt hip kept going until it hit the shoulder of the road. "CRACK" broke my femour! Required surgery and a little hardware to repair. So it looks like I'll have plenty of time to re-read the Twist books again!

 

Thanks again all...

BCNU

[Jaybird180]

Sorry about your unfortunate fall.

[cbirston]

Thanks Jay...

 

BCNU

[Cobie Fair]

Thanks Jay...

 

BCNU

 

 

Yikes BCNU!

 

Since we've had a few guys get patched up over the years, I should dig up some of the things that I picked up from Keith, see if we can get you back to battery soonest.

[cbirston]

Thanks Cobie, that would be great!

 

BCNU

[dmj120]

Sorry to hear about your leg; take it easy, man.

 

I'm late to this thread - but LOVE it. Downhill turns are still a mess for me - I end up with too much weight on my arms... well you know the rest but some real good info here. I'm gonna try it; especially the throttle on AFTER full lean/stable. I look, lean (puuuush/release I love that drill), throttle on, fine tune lean and continue.

[acebobby]

I have never really been a big fan of downhill turns but last week after I had done my L2 and 3 I did a track evening at cadwell park, that was the first time I have ever riden that track and wow, its like a roller coaster, what you see on the tv does not do the elevation changes there any justice! There is a section on that track just after the goose neck which is a steep downhill section and at the bottom of the hill a 90 degree left hander, the first time I saw that on my sighting lap I was like, oh no, but then I was practicing what I had learned the 2 previous days and I and my bike felt good round there! I cant wait to get back to cadwell again!

[Cobie Fair]

I have never really been a big fan of downhill turns but last week after I had done my L2 and 3 I did a track evening at cadwell park, that was the first time I have ever riden that track and wow, its like a roller coaster, what you see on the tv does not do the elevation changes there any justice! There is a section on that track just after the goose neck which is a steep downhill section and at the bottom of the hill a 90 degree left hander, the first time I saw that on my sighting lap I was like, oh no, but then I was practicing what I had learned the 2 previous days and I and my bike felt good round there! I cant wait to get back to cadwell again!

 

Ace--yeah, fun track, the level 2-3 stuff should work well there. We ran the short course when we were there last, are you using that, or the full course?

 

CF

[acebobby]

I have never really been a big fan of downhill turns but last week after I had done my L2 and 3 I did a track evening at cadwell park, that was the first time I have ever riden that track and wow, its like a roller coaster, what you see on the tv does not do the elevation changes there any justice! There is a section on that track just after the goose neck which is a steep downhill section and at the bottom of the hill a 90 degree left hander, the first time I saw that on my sighting lap I was like, oh no, but then I was practicing what I had learned the 2 previous days and I and my bike felt good round there! I cant wait to get back to cadwell again!

 

Ace--yeah, fun track, the level 2-3 stuff should work well there. We ran the short course when we were there last, are you using that, or the full course?

 

CF

 

We were using the full circuit Cobie, It has a bit of everything on it that track and its narrow too so you can really benefit from the level 2 drills!

[Cobie Fair]

I have never really been a big fan of downhill turns but last week after I had done my L2 and 3 I did a track evening at cadwell park, that was the first time I have ever riden that track and wow, its like a roller coaster, what you see on the tv does not do the elevation changes there any justice! There is a section on that track just after the goose neck which is a steep downhill section and at the bottom of the hill a 90 degree left hander, the first time I saw that on my sighting lap I was like, oh no, but then I was practicing what I had learned the 2 previous days and I and my bike felt good round there! I cant wait to get back to cadwell again!

 

Ace--yeah, fun track, the level 2-3 stuff should work well there. We ran the short course when we were there last, are you using that, or the full course?

 

CF

 

We were using the full circuit Cobie, It has a bit of everything on it that track and its narrow too so you can really benefit from the level 2 drills!

 

Yeah, I'll bet!

[cbirston]

Hey there,

Does anyone know how long it takes for a femour to heel?...I'm getting impatient!

 

BCNU

[Cobie Fair]

Hey there,

Does anyone know how long it takes for a femour to heel?...I'm getting impatient!

 

BCNU

 

I've known 2 people that have broken femurs, but one was 71, 6 weeks before she could walk on it I think it was. Not sure about the other guy, gonna give him a ring.

 

CF