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Cornering Mistakes, What, Why, And What Would Have Your Learned From M


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A pertinent point for myself at the moment, which I'll discuss in more depth when we get this thread going in some more depth.

 

I'd like to discuss what people may consider to be in many respects a negative thread but in reality isn't. We all make mistakes, but there is much to be learned from making mistakes as long as you know what you did and why, and what you'd do differently to avoid making them again.

 

So my question to all forum members is this, what mistakes have you made, or do you regularly make? Your mistakes don't need to involve crashing, or accidents, they can be common mistakes you make you realising you'd like to change but perhaps don't know how to change them?

 

Share your thoughts, what you've learned and share these experiences with your fellow forum friends.

 

Get fess'ing up peeps! ;)

 

Bullet

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Good topic starter there Bullet...

I find one of my 'mistakes' is that I can be quite competitive and when the faster guys pass me, I have a tendency to unconsciously twist the wrist and target fixate on the back of their bikes only to find that oops...I'm in way too hot and end up running off! I found that at subsequent track days, I just consentrated on the drills and didn't even noticed the other riders. I also have to constantly tell myself that track days are to practice! That being said..."just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in" Still working on it. Anyone else out there have this problem? (I've just started to do trackdays this year)

 

Thanks,

BCNU

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I go for smooth. I evaluate every corner in my head while I'm going through it, and adjust while I'm in the corner, then it's on to the next. I'm not very fast, but you can pass me anywhere, because I'm going to do the same thing and take the same line every time.

Every now and again I try to put the hammer down and set a blazing speed. Everything goes crazy. My times get even slower, and once I was putting so much pressure on the bars, that my left hand was numb for two weeks. I lose everything I work on the rest of the day, and running off isn't anything surprising.

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Hey Hub,

What kinds of things are you 'evaluating' ? BP, corner speed, RP...? I have not done L3 & L4 , so I don't think of my BP just yet. The only things that I have time to think about are TC, entrance point, apex and exit. I guess when I do my next levels there will be more to spend my $10 on. :P

 

Thanks,

BCNU

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Hey Hub,

What kinds of things are you 'evaluating' ? BP, corner speed, RP...? I have not done L3 & L4 , so I don't think of my BP just yet. The only things that I have time to think about are TC, entrance point, apex and exit. I guess when I do my next levels there will be more to spend my $10 on. :P

 

Thanks,

BCNU

I go in paying attention to my BP (I've got a thing with that), my entry speed (always poor), TC, lean, where I'm at, and what I need to do for my exit. I know it's a lot, but it's all going through my head. Don't even get me started with increase/decrease radius.

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A pertinent point for myself at the moment, which I'll discuss in more depth when we get this thread going in some more depth.

 

I'd like to discuss what people may consider to be in many respects a negative thread but in reality isn't. We all make mistakes, but there is much to be learned from making mistakes as long as you know what you did and why, and what you'd do differently to avoid making them again.

 

So my question to all forum members is this, what mistakes have you made, or do you regularly make? Your mistakes don't need to involve crashing, or accidents, they can be common mistakes you make you realising you'd like to change but perhaps don't know how to change them?

 

Share your thoughts, what you've learned and share these experiences with your fellow forum friends.

 

Get fess'ing up peeps! ;)

 

Bullet

 

 

 

Thanks for getting this one going Bullet! where'd you get that idea..... :rolleyes:

 

For me, the major thing which I get wrong on a regular basis is entering right handers too clse to the centre line (talking road riding obviously here in Australia) - no worries with lefts starting out wide, but despite my best intentions I have some sort of fear of the edge of the road when entering rights and this really puts a crimp in my confidence......

So there you have it! My dirty little secret. It isn't a problem on the track, just on the road.

 

I should feel cleansed now shouldn't I? I'm no closer to solving it though. HELPPPPPPPP!!!!!

 

db

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Good topic Bullet......

 

I think what bcnu has mentioned is something most of us will identify with. Distraction. Regardless of what the distraction is, if it takes away any of your $10, it's going to have an effect. The guy in front of you, that lap time your aiming for, did I leave the oven on at home............

 

I see it in our trainee coaches when they go for their riding pass. Just knowing someone has their attention on you can be a huge distraction. When I would ride with Steve Brouggy (Oz school director), just knowing he was there would take just enough attention that I would make errors (some pretty spectactular!)

 

So, for me, the biggest and most frequent mistake I make in cornering is poor use of my attention. Spending my $10 frivolously if you will :)

 

That's my Fess-up

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On the street, sometimes I focus too much on turning in deep that I occasionally wind up turning in TOO deep. I think it stems from not selecting a turn in point for each corner versus when I'm on the track, the reference points for turning are marked with cones.

 

I think I'll place some cones at a few of my favorite corners - ha ha!

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On the street, sometimes I focus too much on turning in deep that I occasionally wind up turning in TOO deep. I think it stems from not selecting a turn in point for each corner versus when I'm on the track, the reference points for turning are marked with cones.

 

I think I'll place some cones at a few of my favorite corners - ha ha!

 

Mobile cones might work, though it could prove to be an expensive way to go? either that, or you could get really friendly with the traffic department, and ask them nicely. :lol:

 

I thought it was an interesting observation though, and wondered whether it was really possible to turn in too late on the road, or whether your problem was related to not looking in early enough?

 

Bullet

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Thanks for getting this one going Bullet! where'd you get that idea..... :rolleyes:

 

For me, the major thing which I get wrong on a regular basis is entering right handers too clse to the centre line (talking road riding obviously here in Australia) - no worries with lefts starting out wide, but despite my best intentions I have some sort of fear of the edge of the road when entering rights and this really puts a crimp in my confidence......

So there you have it! My dirty little secret. It isn't a problem on the track, just on the road.

 

I should feel cleansed now shouldn't I? I'm no closer to solving it though. HELPPPPPPPP!!!!!

 

db

 

I'll tell you in my own post in a moment my friend. We all make mistakes, so it's no dirty little secret, I assure you. :lol:

 

With respect to your problem, what is your fear of the edge of the road? what is it you feel is going to happen? What is the consequence of you turning in too close to the centre of the road, does it give you problems on your exits?

 

Bullet

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So, whats my little confession....?

 

Well I recently ran a trackday on my RSV race bike, and I'd had a great day, had ridden very well, and was fairly hauling ass. The weather conditions had started very dry, then moved to light rain, then very heavy rain, then moved back to dry. It was one of those days you really weren't sure you knew what you were going to get really. I race my bike on Slicks, and of course when the heavy rains had come, I moved onto my race wets. All good, still flying, confidence very high.

 

On the second to last session of the day, it had moved back to being dry again, apart from this one corner on the circuit which holds water longer than anywhere else. Anyway, changed back to slicks, though my front hadn't been on the warmer for more than say 20 mins, so I knew it wasn't at optimal temperature. So I decided that I needed to take it a little easier and build up a little.

 

3 laps in, and everything is going well, and I come to wet corner, but the different this time was that I made my own space, got some clear track ahead of me, and I was able to do my own thing. Now this corner in question is a a tighening radius turn, with an extremely late apex. Most riders turn in way too early and compromise their exits of the turn. 2stepped, Turned the bike, still on the brakes, making great progress to the apex, when I realise that on the inside of the track, 8 inches from the whitle line on the inside their is a wet patch, and I'm heading right for it on slicks.......! So I get off the brakes, put some gas into her, (it's all starting to a go a bit quick the world by now, spilt second decisions count). and unfortunately the front folded, and I down I went. Bike slid into the gravel, and flipped over. Day over, and a rather nice bill to come too.

 

So, what am I guilty off? Well, two things really. Firstly, and probably most importantly here, I made a bad decision about whether I should use that part of the track withouth knowing it was wet or not. As I'd been following others line the previous laps, or going around the outside of others to get better drive of the turn, I hadn't used the proper line, and therefore wasn't sure it was ok to Apex and get to the lines. That was clearly a bad mistake, and one that could have been avoided. Second mistake, an ongoing problem from many years, is that when I get into a tricky situation, I have a tendency to get a little target fixation, and I really should have stopped looking at the wet patch once I saw it, and tried to make a steering correction away from the wet patch. Still working on that one folks, probably will be for quite sometime to come. :lol:

 

Hope that helped start a further flood of conversation about this topic, as I said, much to be learned all the time, regardless of your level.

 

Bullet

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Two things this weekend for me:

I was trying to beat my personal best lap time. we all try to do that don't we? Well, something to consider is what changes when we increase speed? At my old personal best lap time my turning point at turn 1 was here. If I have increased my lap time by over a second, do you think that turn point changes? Hell Yeah it does! You might want to plan this out a little better than I did as it can become quite tedious. Not that I did something crazy but that I unexpectedly did a better time so my old turn point was putting me in the corner a little late.

 

I was trying out a new bike that has Brembo radial piston calipers and Brembo master cylinder. My old bike has standard stock calipers but I do have a Brembo master cylinder. I normally go into my favorite hair pin off camber turn with two finger braking on the old bike. I took the new bike out for a spin with a buddy telling me "those brakes are good so don't let off the gas until brake marker 4 and don't tuch the brakes until brake marker 2." Lifting the rear wheel in the air for about 20 yards can be very distracting as you enter a turn.

 

What lessons did I learn..besides keep a fresh pair of undies handy? Anticipate changes that might occur as you change goals and equipment. Plan ahead! Little things me a lot when you go faster.

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I'll tell you in my own post in a moment my friend. We all make mistakes, so it's no dirty little secret, I assure you. :lol:

 

With respect to your problem, what is your fear of the edge of the road? what is it you feel is going to happen? What is the consequence of you turning in too close to the centre of the road, does it give you problems on your exits?

 

Bullet

 

Having done level 2 and the slow laps of the course, inside, outside and middle, and noticing the amount of room that is available, I thought I'd be over the tendency to not push wide enough on the road. But it still continues! More than occasionally, although not exclusively. There is one right hander in particular which springs to mind. Fast, off camber, downhill sweeper. I'm guaranteed to stuff it, although it is improving a bit....generally I now get the entry a bit better then discover I could have gone heaps quicker.

The consequences are, for me, a very slow line when the problem does occur.....I'm over the tendency to run wide by trying to do it too quick....its almost like I know I'm going to blow it before I do it.....very frustrating. You know....you turn too close to centre line, don't really want to cross over centreline :blink: ......so slow down, sit the bike up and putt around.

So thats some more detail.....

 

cheers mate

 

db

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hello bullet nice to see you briefly (and keith!) at siverstone a few weeks ago ( i wasn,t riding but dropped in )

 

glad to hear you have problems too ! although i,ve noticed sometimes that when the track is damp or wet its hard to see how wet ! until you find out .

 

what i,ve learnt is that track days in december and january in the cold and wet at snetterton / cadwell ( never tryed warmers yet ) require more caution and pick up drill !

hmm . i thought those winter prices were cheap ..

 

see you at stowe in september .

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hello bullet nice to see you briefly (and keith!) at siverstone a few weeks ago ( i wasn,t riding but dropped in )

 

glad to hear you have problems too ! although i,ve noticed sometimes that when the track is damp or wet its hard to see how wet ! until you find out .

 

what i,ve learnt is that track days in december and january in the cold and wet at snetterton / cadwell ( never tryed warmers yet ) require more caution and pick up drill !

hmm . i thought those winter prices were cheap ..

 

see you at stowe in september .

 

Hi mate,

 

Yeah we all have some challenges mate, though I've only ever had 1 error at a school. Got a bit of TF, ran into the gravel at big speeds, over 100+. All safe and well though. :blink: I looked like that though when I did it.

 

yeah good to see you too my friend. I look forward to seeing you again in September mate!

 

Bullet

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hello bullet nice to see you briefly (and keith!) at siverstone a few weeks ago ( i wasn,t riding but dropped in )

 

glad to hear you have problems too ! although i,ve noticed sometimes that when the track is damp or wet its hard to see how wet ! until you find out .

 

what i,ve learnt is that track days in december and january in the cold and wet at snetterton / cadwell ( never tryed warmers yet ) require more caution and pick up drill !

hmm . i thought those winter prices were cheap ..

 

see you at stowe in september .

 

I mainly road ride btaking slow in fast out lines.

 

I struggle with getting a good line on left handers, I guess its because for us in Australia vision to the left is tighter when compared to the right, which is more open.

 

The other issue I have is my head,,lol

 

I find that I just cant seem to geyt my head far enough across on a consistent basis.

 

When I run at a nice steady pace its all good, but when I ramp things up[ a bit I find thatpushing my head across to be inline with the rest of my body ( ( inside the bike) seems to change my perspective of the corner and I seem to run wide.

 

I dont know if I am too tight on the bars, I dont thinkl so I am very conscious of this and the need to be light.

 

I wonder if I have too much of a reach for the bars??

I am quite tall and I ride a CBR1100xx but the bars are a bit of a reach,,,,or should I say the bars may be more comfortable a little closer to me...

 

sorry for the random ramblings...lol

 

Hi mate,

 

Yeah we all have some challenges mate, though I've only ever had 1 error at a school. Got a bit of TF, ran into the gravel at big speeds, over 100+. All safe and well though. :blink: I looked like that though when I did it.

 

yeah good to see you too my friend. I look forward to seeing you again in September mate!

 

Bullet

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hello bullet nice to see you briefly (and keith!) at siverstone a few weeks ago ( i wasn,t riding but dropped in )

 

glad to hear you have problems too ! although i,ve noticed sometimes that when the track is damp or wet its hard to see how wet ! until you find out .

 

what i,ve learnt is that track days in december and january in the cold and wet at snetterton / cadwell ( never tryed warmers yet ) require more caution and pick up drill !

hmm . i thought those winter prices were cheap ..

 

see you at stowe in september .

 

I mainly road ride btaking slow in fast out lines.

 

I struggle with getting a good line on left handers, I guess its because for us in Australia vision to the left is tighter when compared to the right, which is more open.

 

The other issue I have is my head,,lol

 

I find that I just cant seem to geyt my head far enough across on a consistent basis.

 

When I run at a nice steady pace its all good, but when I ramp things up[ a bit I find thatpushing my head across to be inline with the rest of my body ( ( inside the bike) seems to change my perspective of the corner and I seem to run wide.

 

I dont know if I am too tight on the bars, I dont thinkl so I am very conscious of this and the need to be light.

 

I wonder if I have too much of a reach for the bars??

I am quite tall and I ride a CBR1100xx but the bars are a bit of a reach,,,,or should I say the bars may be more comfortable a little closer to me...

 

sorry for the random ramblings...lol

 

Hi mate,

 

Yeah we all have some challenges mate, though I've only ever had 1 error at a school. Got a bit of TF, ran into the gravel at big speeds, over 100+. All safe and well though. :blink: I looked like that though when I did it.

 

yeah good to see you too my friend. I look forward to seeing you again in September mate!

 

Bullet

 

Hi Barraman,

 

No problem with your points, and thanks for sharing.

 

Couple of questions about you and your riding on the Blackbird (as we call it in the UK). When are you coming back to throttle in the turns? Second question, you hang off the bike I think, how much do you do so, and do you have any pics of you doing so people could have a critique of your position?

 

Thanks mate,

 

Bullet

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Here are a few pics of a training day I went to a few months ago.

 

I dont know exactly where the photos were taken and I know it appears as if I am not looking far enough through the corner but the pics of the others in the group are all similar, maybe we are all doing it wrong..lol

 

I do not usually ride at a trach and have elected not to stick my knee out the majority of the time as I feel that it is far too dangerous to do this on public roads.

 

this is a vid of a run down and up a short range. The camera is on my bike, Sound quality isnt that good but you can hear the engine amongst to wind noise.

I have never been hard on the brakes , preferring to ride the percentage play as amost all of my riding is on rough public raods.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I wish I didnt live more than 2500km away from CSS in Australia...lol

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Hi Mate,

 

Thanks for those, very interesting, and pics and video just show you so much eh, it's a no escape from the truth medium for sure, the answers lie there within for sure. I have to say, thats one hell of a twisty wiggly/wobbly round isn't it? Is this road you're sturggling with?

 

You've not remarked on whether you've got on of Keith's text, which books if any have you got or read, so I can understand where to point you, good sir.

 

So then my fellow friends on the site, what would everyone comment on Barraman's body position? Anyone see anything they'd advise him to change, or may be causing him so things he could look to ammend?

 

Bullet

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Yes it is a windy road and bunpy as hell. Unfortunately these are the closest set of corners to where I live only 55 km away.. :blink:

 

there are a few more vids here if anyone is interested,,

 

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer..._type=&aq=f

 

I have several books,

 

Total control

 

Twist of the wrist 2

and Motorcycling excellecnce.

 

One thing I need to do is sort the suspension out.

Most of my riding is 2 up and I have had the front resprung and revalved to suit 2 up touring which makes it a little stiff when solo.

 

I have a 8789 Penske on the rear which has been also tailored to suit touring ( I have covered almost 30000km since february).

 

I am not making excuses for body position , its far from perfect but I know that the suspension is contributing to things overall.

 

Thinking out aloud. when solo the rear feels light on turn in and I can quite easily spin the rear , ( one of the vids shows me almost highsiding.. ooopps. I think I have too much rebound set on the rear,, But the bike feels great 2 up and with luggage and doesnt pack down or anything, I also feel the front turn really easily at sub 60km ph speeds but when I get up towards the 80 to 100 kph mark the steering is a little tougher, I have only 27 mm sag in the front solo stop stuff like this

 

IMG_1334.jpg

 

 

and since I have done this and raised the rear ride height by about 8mm I havent scratched a panel ..

maybe I need to take a little out of the front preload to make the bike turn better/ easier.

 

If any of the above is inappropriate just delete of move it.

 

Barra

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Hey Barraman,

 

Ok sorry it took a little time to get back to you, I do apologise for the delay.

 

Now your bike isn't a superbike or supersport, and clearly it's much heavier than one of those which definitely affects things. You would be well advised to consider getting your suspension setup, but of coure it's always a compromise, and if you mainly go two up, with luggage, that will make it very hard and a little flightly I'd expect for work when you're on your own. Still worth some consideration though.

 

Ok, having reviewed your video's, you do need to work on your throttle control timing and application, so I'd suggest you read pages 6 - 30 of TW2. Your body position isn't perfect, (who's is?), and I suggest you look at pages 34 - 40of TW2 to look into that. Finally, you could clearly do with looking into quick turns, page 70-80 and seeing what benefits that could do with respect to you're lines, and ground clearance... Proper throttle control will also assist with this too!

 

Have a look, and see what pieces of information are missing for you still. i think you'll find some good information that will help a lot with some of your challenges.

 

Bullet

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I've done CSS levels 1 & 2.

At Thunderbolt - I'm going thru T1 - into the turn up to the apex we're carrying the same speeds, but from the apex to the exit mark the Control Rider drives out much faster by the time we hit the exit mark he's up my a$$.

 

I shift my butt on the straight before I start braking, and setting up for the quick turn. I find that during the corner out of the apex, when I throttle on harder my line goes wider as I head towards the exit cone using the pick up drill…I think there must be a balance of when and how much to get on the gas to keep the line. So how do I get on the gas harder without over shooting the line?

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