Front Grip - How To Increase Or Loose It?

[isolter]

As I have been getting faster I have found this to become a bit of an issue, whenever it occurs I put my attention on my entry speed and my desired entry position on the second corner, and focus on exiting the first turn so that I am lined up precisely where I want to be for the second turn! It usually feels like I'm taking the first turn to slow but pays of when I enter the second turn!

sorry for taking the thread a bit off topic here!

 

I've noticed the same. The most demanding thing beside all driving technique is to stay focused, get one's mind "ahead" of the bike, get yourself tuned for the next corner whilst you're driving the existing one. Sometimes I have focused 100 % to ride a particular corner and after that noticed I "blowed off" the second one. For example at our local area there's a track with a 180 deg "U-corner", downhill; the next one is >90 deg DR-turn; it's so easy to get extreme exit-speed from the 1st one and notice at you've blown the 2nd...

[hubbard_28]

Wow, that bit of banter seems to have gone awry somewhere....! Desperately sorry if you're offended my friend, I really I am, but we're clearly at some level of cross purposes here for certain.

 

OK, how to put this back on the straight and narrow....? Well, what I was trying to get you to understand is that the correct line is not actually defined by brakes, entry speed, or 60/40, it's actually definied entirely by throttle control. 60/40 is a consqequence of good throttle control and there are other benefits for sure. The reality of riding a bike is that we do not come immediately back to throttle in the early part of the turn, the first part of a turn is typically dictated by a person's ability to able to turn the bike as well as other factors, and regardless of whether you trail brake or not, you're still not in 60/40, so a low side is still possible whether your on the brakes or not, certainly in the wet its very real.

 

So whilst many people would and should come of the brakes/gas in a straight line before you turn, there is an opportunity to brake past this point whilst turning the bike, and of a consequence you can definitely carry more speed upto the point where you can get back to the correct throttle control. Do i reccomend it to my students whilst I'm coaching at CSS? No, Would I suggest it's a good thing for most riders wanting to improve? Definitely not? But the fact of that matter is that if you race, and push hard and want to win, it's a neccesity as their is 1/10's of seconds (many meters to be made). Sure it's a fine balance, though it's normally not the loading of the tyre where the issues happen, it's when the pressure of the brakes are released and suspension extends again that normally the problems arise.

 

One of the benefits you get of being a coach with CSS is not only the fact that you have access to some of the most wonderful information in the world, but probably most importantly, you're part of an incredible bunch of people that have all levels of ability, from top level racing, through club racing, and some don't even race at all. Whats great though, is that we often debate and talk about technolgy, techniques, how to improve etc, all the time, and we experiement and looks for improvements in tech and drills all the time. This drives back into the programme and makes it evolve to what it is today. I've no doubt it will make it evolve further in the future as well.

 

Once again man, sorry if I offended, part of my role here is to make students think about their riding, rather than just telling people, that can be questions, sending you to read tech, etc, etc. It stimulates thought and debate which is great, it creates open thought which we definitely want, but it's certainly not to upset or offend, and if I did, please accept my apology.

 

Bullet

It was supposed to be a joke. Don't mind it. The way it's read is that I refer to TOTW books for all my answers here. I have an ego. Again: don't mind it.

On the 40/60 thing, it's harder to explain than I thought it was going to be, thus the ramble. I was concerned that he's of the impression that you need to load the front IN a corner. That's some dangerous stuff. I have plenty of friends who are racing, and middle to front of the pack, who can't explain exactly what they do. Hand them a copy of TOTW, and the problem is usually solved.

[Bullet]

Wow, that bit of banter seems to have gone awry somewhere....! Desperately sorry if you're offended my friend, I really I am, but we're clearly at some level of cross purposes here for certain.

 

OK, how to put this back on the straight and narrow....? Well, what I was trying to get you to understand is that the correct line is not actually defined by brakes, entry speed, or 60/40, it's actually definied entirely by throttle control. 60/40 is a consqequence of good throttle control and there are other benefits for sure. The reality of riding a bike is that we do not come immediately back to throttle in the early part of the turn, the first part of a turn is typically dictated by a person's ability to able to turn the bike as well as other factors, and regardless of whether you trail brake or not, you're still not in 60/40, so a low side is still possible whether your on the brakes or not, certainly in the wet its very real.

 

So whilst many people would and should come of the brakes/gas in a straight line before you turn, there is an opportunity to brake past this point whilst turning the bike, and of a consequence you can definitely carry more speed upto the point where you can get back to the correct throttle control. Do i reccomend it to my students whilst I'm coaching at CSS? No, Would I suggest it's a good thing for most riders wanting to improve? Definitely not? But the fact of that matter is that if you race, and push hard and want to win, it's a neccesity as their is 1/10's of seconds (many meters to be made). Sure it's a fine balance, though it's normally not the loading of the tyre where the issues happen, it's when the pressure of the brakes are released and suspension extends again that normally the problems arise.

 

One of the benefits you get of being a coach with CSS is not only the fact that you have access to some of the most wonderful information in the world, but probably most importantly, you're part of an incredible bunch of people that have all levels of ability, from top level racing, through club racing, and some don't even race at all. Whats great though, is that we often debate and talk about technolgy, techniques, how to improve etc, all the time, and we experiement and looks for improvements in tech and drills all the time. This drives back into the programme and makes it evolve to what it is today. I've no doubt it will make it evolve further in the future as well.

 

Once again man, sorry if I offended, part of my role here is to make students think about their riding, rather than just telling people, that can be questions, sending you to read tech, etc, etc. It stimulates thought and debate which is great, it creates open thought which we definitely want, but it's certainly not to upset or offend, and if I did, please accept my apology.

 

Bullet

It was supposed to be a joke. Don't mind it. The way it's read is that I refer to TOTW books for all my answers here. I have an ego. Again: don't mind it.

On the 40/60 thing, it's harder to explain than I thought it was going to be, thus the ramble. I was concerned that he's of the impression that you need to load the front IN a corner. That's some dangerous stuff. I have plenty of friends who are racing, and middle to front of the pack, who can't explain exactly what they do. Hand them a copy of TOTW, and the problem is usually solved.

 

Thank fook for that, though i'd really upset ya man.. Had me right going there.. Bastard.... LOL

 

Bullet

[fossilfuel]

I think there is a point in riding as hard as one can to the latest braking marker one can. Squeeze the bajesus out of the brakes to get that front tire hot and sticky. I load the front but not with brakes. I load the front inside of the bike with my upper body and gently get back on the throttle. I think sometimes people stroll into the corner then try to get on the gas to quickly. I have caught myself in a situation where I have grabbed the throttle and felt the front lighten up. This was done by accident but it could have made me lose the front and I was fortunate not to. I think that the throttle is the key here. Even if one brakes all the way in to the apex. Ones weight has to be distributed on the front to keep the forks from bouncing up when the throttle is applied. So position is very important as well. Soft hands, no weight on the bars, body position to weight the front end, good throttle contol and hot sticky tire from smooth hard braking.

 

My experience and works for me.

[fossilfuel]

I think there is a point in riding as hard as one can to the latest braking marker one can. Squeeze the bajesus out of the brakes to get that front tire hot and sticky. I load the front but not with brakes. I load the front inside of the bike with my upper body and gently get back on the throttle. I think sometimes people stroll into the corner then try to get on the gas to quickly. I have caught myself in a situation where I have grabbed the throttle and felt the front lighten up. This was done by accident but it could have made me lose the front and I was fortunate not to. I think that the throttle is the key here. Even if one brakes all the way in to the apex. Ones weight has to be distributed on the front to keep the forks from bouncing up when the throttle is applied. So position is very important as well. Soft hands, no weight on the bars, body position to weight the front end, good throttle contol and hot sticky tire from smooth hard braking.

 

My experience and works for me.

I wish I had read the second page first....Wow! I love this forum. It's nice to have a little expression gone wacko every now and again...sorry I missed it. It's like drinking punch at the prom while theres a fight outside!

[Epee]

The keystone to TOTW is that tires work most effectively cornering when loaded proportionally to the tire contact patch area. Almost everything taught from CSS follows from that tenant. While I find that entirely plausible (and a much better explanation of motorcycle dynamics than most alternatives), I have never been able to find any engineering tire data that makes the same assertion. Can anyone point me to technical articles that support this claim?

 

I'm not trying to cast doubt on the tire rule, just find more detailed explanation. Thanks.

[dbtriple]

Just want to echo previous comments - I love this site! First thing I do when I get a chance is come to this to see waht's going on. This is a great thread. Follow it through to the bitter end!!!

 

db

[Jasonzilla]

I

[harnois]

The keystone to TOTW is that tires work most effectively cornering when loaded proportionally to the tire contact patch area. Almost everything taught from CSS follows from that tenant. While I find that entirely plausible (and a much better explanation of motorcycle dynamics than most alternatives), I have never been able to find any engineering tire data that makes the same assertion. Can anyone point me to technical articles that support this claim?

 

I'm not trying to cast doubt on the tire rule, just find more detailed explanation. Thanks.

 

It's kindof a chicken and egg thing if you ask me. Is it best to ride the bike a certain way because it is designed to be ridden that way, or is the bike designed to be ridden a certain way because that's just the best way to ride it?

 

To put it another way, if a bike had equally sized front and rear tires, would you ride it any differently?

 

To me it seems the laws of physics dictate that it is best to accelerate through turns, and that the bike will spend more time on power than on brakes, and that its best to support more weight on the rear than on the front. Therefore, the bike is designed, with a larger rear tire and many other things, to work that way and be ridden that way. Therefore, since both the laws of physics and the bike's design are both dictating that it be ridden a certain way, it would be doubly stupid to ride it some other way and expect a better result.

 

It starts with the laws of physics, not the bike's design. If it starts with the bike's design, why not design it with more weight on the front, a fatter front tire, smaller rear tire, and ride around the turns on the brakes all the time? Afterall, you'd still have the tires "loaded proportionally to the tire contact patch area."

 

[Epee]

The keystone to TOTW is that tires work most effectively cornering when loaded proportionally to the tire contact patch area. Almost everything taught from CSS follows from that tenant. While I find that entirely plausible (and a much better explanation of motorcycle dynamics than most alternatives), I have never been able to find any engineering tire data that makes the same assertion. Can anyone point me to technical articles that support this claim?

 

I'm not trying to cast doubt on the tire rule, just find more detailed explanation. Thanks.

 

It's kindof a chicken and egg thing if you ask me. Is it best to ride the bike a certain way because it is designed to be ridden that way, or is the bike designed to be ridden a certain way because that's just the best way to ride it?

 

To put it another way, if a bike had equally sized front and rear tires, would you ride it any differently?

 

To me it seems the laws of physics dictate that it is best to accelerate through turns, and that the bike will spend more time on power than on brakes, and that its best to support more weight on the rear than on the front. Therefore, the bike is designed, with a larger rear tire and many other things, to work that way and be ridden that way. Therefore, since both the laws of physics and the bike's design are both dictating that it be ridden a certain way, it would be doubly stupid to ride it some other way and expect a better result.

 

It starts with the laws of physics, not the bike's design. If it starts with the bike's design, why not design it with more weight on the front, a fatter front tire, smaller rear tire, and ride around the turns on the brakes all the time? Afterall, you'd still have the tires "loaded proportionally to the tire contact patch area."

 

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not making any statement about the laws of physics, motorcycle design, etc. I am simply looking for engineering data to support the premise that tires work best for cornering when they are carrying load proportional to their contact patch.

 

This thread is about tire grip; which I take to mean how to use tires most effectively.

 

I am very interested in how tires really work. The more I know about the engineering behind tires, the better decisions I can make about how to use them. I think this is entirely consistent with what you teach at CSS; the best riding technique is one that is in harmony with motorcycle engineering. I am looking to learn more. Most of data on tires I find is based on automotive tires, which generate side (cornering) forces in a fundamentally different way than motorcycle tires.

 

I have Tony Foale's "Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design", Vittore Cossalter's "Motorcycle Dynamics", etc. These are excellent books, but do not cover tires in sufficient detail to cover optimal cornering performance.

 

So, if anyone knows of other sources of tire information, I'd love the pointers. Thanks!

[Cobie Fair]

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not making any statement about the laws of physics, motorcycle design, etc. I am simply looking for engineering data to support the premise that tires work best for cornering when they are carrying load proportional to their contact patch.

 

This thread is about tire grip; which I take to mean how to use tires most effectively.

 

I am very interested in how tires really work. The more I know about the engineering behind tires, the better decisions I can make about how to use them. I think this is entirely consistent with what you teach at CSS; the best riding technique is one that is in harmony with motorcycle engineering. I am looking to learn more. Most of data on tires I find is based on automotive tires, which generate side (cornering) forces in a fundamentally different way than motorcycle tires.

 

I have Tony Foale's "Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design", Vittore Cossalter's "Motorcycle Dynamics", etc. These are excellent books, but do not cover tires in sufficient detail to cover optimal cornering performance.

 

So, if anyone knows of other sources of tire information, I'd love the pointers. Thanks!

 

Good question, personaly don't know of a reference like what you are referring to. I do know that it is changing and FAST. Keeping up with tire pressures on the various tires alone, and what to recommend to students at the school. One bit of information that I learned recently (maybe you all know this already) is the tempuratures that street and race tires work at. 120-180 seems to be the range for street tires, while race tires get closer to 200 degrees F, that I didn't know.

 

On a cool day, with track temperatures and ambient tempuratures low, the track actually pulls heat out of the tires.

 

I'll keep looking for more data on this.

 

Best,

CF

[lwarner]

Epee, I am guessing that for technical/engineering data you might like talking to one of the tire techs at a track. There are usually a couple at track days, depending on how many manufacturers are selling there that day, but they are the guys most likely to have done studies on the tires.

[Epee]

Thanks Cobie for input and Iwarner for suggestions.