Mr Clauds Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Hey gents After the advice I got, I started trying some new things... but new fears emerged and more questions, so if someone can give me guidance on this please. On the quick turn, Is it possible to quick turn so hard that you slam your knee or peg into the ground? How would you know if your turning in too late? (I might be turning too late and thats why I get awfully close to scrapping peg and knee with quick turn in, which sets or SR's?) Attached is a map of a track I'm working on getting right, could you guys please put down where you would turn in and apex just as a reference so I can analyse it? Also on which turns should I try wide arc plan hard drive plan and world plan I don't want to be fed anything, and based on what lines I get from you guys, I'll make up my own mind on what best suits me and my style... It feels like im turning in later and quicker than others, but have a slower entry speed, getting on throttle earlier and have the bike quite stable, rolling on smoothly and have better body position, yet the guys that are all unstable and doing everything TOTW says not to do have much better lap times? So im curious as to where Im going wrong? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Clauds Posted October 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Maybe im asking to much?! Could I then please just get an answer on these 2 questions? On the quick turn, Is it possible to quick turn so hard that you slam your knee or peg into the ground? Would this lead to a crash or just a broken peg? How would you know if your turning in too late? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Maybe im asking to much?! Could I then please just get an answer on these 2 questions? On the quick turn, Is it possible to quick turn so hard that you slam your knee or peg into the ground? Would this lead to a crash or just a broken peg? How would you know if your turning in too late? Thanks There were a lot of questions for sure, definitely too much going on at once there my friend.. 1), yes, definitely possible to turn it so hard, you stick it straight to your knee/peg etc. Well, if the pegs are flip up ones, they'll normally grind and lift a bit, though if they dig into say a kerb or some rutted tarmac, they can dig in or lift the rear wheel a little. If they're solid rearsets (race style), they'll dig in and lift only, they won't break. Will you crash in this instance, chances are high with lifting the rear wheel for sure. depends on what you do next, what SR you invoke. wioth respect to 2), How do you think you might know if your turning in too late? Is it possible? What might happen if you turn in to late? What benefits have you found you get from turning in later? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Clauds Posted October 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 "wioth respect to 2), How do you think you might know if your turning in too late? Is it possible? What might happen if you turn in to late? What benefits have you found you get from turning in later?" Your entry speed is too low? You grind parts and not reach your apex? But if you turn in later, doesn't your apex become later? The benefits for turning in late are: Better drive, less time at max lean angle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 "wioth respect to 2), How do you think you might know if your turning in too late? Is it possible? What might happen if you turn in to late? What benefits have you found you get from turning in later?" Your entry speed is too low? You grind parts and not reach your apex? But if you turn in later, doesn't your apex become later? The benefits for turning in late are: Better drive, less time at max lean angle? Your entry speed is too low? No, but that may be what's causing some of your issue, are you setting your corner speed for turn point or Apex? You grind parts and not reach your apex? Yes, but specifically you'll maybe miss your apex or.... But if you turn in later, doesn't your apex become later? Yes, but would it be possible you may end up having half of the track on the exit unused? what does mean you've not got coming off the turn? Better drive, Possily but why? less time at max lean angle? Thats more related to the quick turn itself, it could make the angle in the corner shallower though right..? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Clauds Posted October 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Your entry speed is too low? No, but that may be what's causing some of your issue, are you setting your corner speed for turn point or Apex? Im not too sure actually, it should be for the apex shouldn't it? How much more important is the apex as opposed to the turn in? You grind parts and not reach your apex? Yes, but specifically you'll maybe miss your apex or.... No idea? Run off the track? But if you turn in later, doesn't your apex become later? Yes, but would it be possible you may end up having half of the track on the exit unused? what does mean you've not got coming off the turn? This has just clicked for me, I always land up with extra track on the exit which means I can go through faster, but with the current turn points I have, there is no way I'd reach the apex at those speeds, which means I am turning in too late? And not paying enough attention on the exit? Better drive, Possily but why? Because you aren't as leaned over? less time at max lean angle? Thats more related to the quick turn itself, it could make the angle in the corner shallower though right..? Right, and I have some thoughts on that. If you have the same turn point but simply turn quicker, you'll run off the inside of the track, so to compensate, you add speed to get to your original line again correct? You really are making my brain work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Your entry speed is too low? No, but that may be what's causing some of your issue, are you setting your corner speed for turn point or Apex?Im not too sure actually, it should be for the apex shouldn't it? How much more important is the apex as opposed to the turn in? You grind parts and not reach your apex? Yes, but specifically you'll maybe miss your apex or.... No idea? Run off the track? But if you turn in later, doesn't your apex become later? Yes, but would it be possible you may end up having half of the track on the exit unused? what does mean you've not got coming off the turn? This has just clicked for me, I always land up with extra track on the exit which means I can go through faster, but with the current turn points I have, there is no way I'd reach the apex at those speeds, which means I am turning in too late? And not paying enough attention on the exit? Better drive, Possily but why? Because you aren't as leaned over? less time at max lean angle? Thats more related to the quick turn itself, it could make the angle in the corner shallower though right..? Right, and I have some thoughts on that. If you have the same turn point but simply turn quicker, you'll run off the inside of the track, so to compensate, you add speed to get to your original line again correct? You really are making my brain work Its good your brain is getting a work out my friend, if someone gave it to you, that wouldn't be worth anything to you would it, nor would you really understand the reason why either, which is really more important. Well, does you turn in always stay the same, regardless of the speed your travelling? Does the Apex always stay the same..? I think you'll find one alters, and one doesn't so I'd suggest the one that doesn't is more important, wouldn't you? You grind parts and not reach your apex? Yes, but specifically you'll maybe miss your apex or.... ..? well would you be able to wind on the gas harder of that turn if you had hit that apex? If you have space on the exit of the track, and your line for the next corner doesn't mean you need to be in the middle of the track, then sure, you've not driven the bike as hard as you could of the turn, which means what...? Less lean, yeah, but because of what specifically is the line the same or different? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Clauds Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Well, does you turn in always stay the same, regardless of the speed your travelling? Does the Apex always stay the same..? I think you'll find one alters, and one doesn't so I'd suggest the one that doesn't is more important, wouldn't you? Yes So apex is more important that the turn in... Up to now I've had it the other way around, my turn in was spot on, but the apex would continue to change depending on speed. Seems I need to switch it around You grind parts and not reach your apex? Yes, but specifically you'll maybe miss your apex or.... ..? well would you be able to wind on the gas harder of that turn if you had hit that apex? Certainly, which has just made me understand the "line for throttle rule" If you turn too late, you have to stay off throttle longer or roll off to get to your apex, and then you will exit on inside of the track and have carried a lower speed through the corner:) and have broken the throttle rule If you have space on the exit of the track, and your line for the next corner doesn't mean you need to be in the middle of the track, then sure, you've not driven the bike as hard as you could of the turn, which means what...? You can carry more speed through the corner and/or roll on a little harder depending on the traction limits Less lean, yeah, but because of what specifically is the line the same or different? Not sure what your asking here? Do have a question on that though. I understand that quick turn will allow more speed through the corner, but how would it cause less lean angle? or is it meant that it will cause less lean angle at same speed, but then if speed is picked up, you will have the same lean angle? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Well, does you turn in always stay the same, regardless of the speed your travelling? Does the Apex always stay the same..? I think you'll find one alters, and one doesn't so I'd suggest the one that doesn't is more important, wouldn't you? Yes So apex is more important that the turn in... Up to now I've had it the other way around, my turn in was spot on, but the apex would continue to change depending on speed. Seems I need to switch it around You grind parts and not reach your apex? Yes, but specifically you'll maybe miss your apex or.... ..? well would you be able to wind on the gas harder of that turn if you had hit that apex? Certainly, which has just made me understand the "line for throttle rule" If you turn too late, you have to stay off throttle longer or roll off to get to your apex, and then you will exit on inside of the track and have carried a lower speed through the corner:) and have broken the throttle rule If you have space on the exit of the track, and your line for the next corner doesn't mean you need to be in the middle of the track, then sure, you've not driven the bike as hard as you could of the turn, which means what...? You can carry more speed through the corner and/or roll on a little harder depending on the traction limits Less lean, yeah, but because of what specifically is the line the same or different? Not sure what your asking here? Do have a question on that though. I understand that quick turn will allow more speed through the corner, but how would it cause less lean angle? or is it meant that it will cause less lean angle at same speed, but then if speed is picked up, you will have the same lean angle? Thanks Right, we're making some excellent progress here for sure, and look, you did it all yourself really, just needed to think about it a little differently. I'd suggest you maybe take one thing away from this, is that your thinking about too many things at once, and we only do one thing at once. work on that, when your happy move on, do something else, whether its getting to that great throttle roll on, looking in early whatever, just one thing. OK, last point then. I think you need to go and look up in TW2 on quick turns, the exact details of what works and why, you have some confusion in part. Your question at the end is correct though, if you pick up the speed, the lean angle does increase, hence you can be dragging things on the floor again. There ultimately does become a limit of whats possible for sure, but I feel you'vee probably got areas to work on here. Glad you've got some progress mate, really gald to have helped. Please do let everyone know how your getting on, what things you discover, as am certain others are having these same challenges are learning from your thinking and questions Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Clauds Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Thanks so much for all the help Bullet... A whole new section has opened up to me... the puzzle pieces are falling into place now and the books and CSS training is really getting to a point where I understand it clearly and the reason for it instead of just following it Thanks Clauds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 i had a cupel of times that i did the same thing, when i turn i use to slam my knee in the ground it some times pushed me up again. the rezone for that is in 2 events the front gave in and i was almost sliding but i pushed my knee on the ground and i made it ( it was not intentional it was a reaction ) after that i was grinding my slider and distroied a set on sliders or 2 a day because i was nervous. i am more relaxed now so i enjoy the ride more. sorry for the bad spelling but hope you get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 OK guys this has turned into a brilliant and interesting thread, bit gutted you have come to a conclusion so soon as it became a proper question and answer session! Anyway I just wanted to fire an opinion in about something! Well, does you turn in always stay the same, regardless of the speed your travelling? Does the Apex always stay the same..? I think you'll find one alters, and one doesn't so I'd suggest the one that doesn't is more important, wouldn't you? Yes So apex is more important that the turn in... Up to now I've had it the other way around, my turn in was spot on, but the apex would continue to change depending on speed. Seems I need to switch it around So the apex stays the same! but then the apex would continue to change depending on speed! This cant be right! OK so what is the apex? Some would say that its the kerb, or edge of the track at the inside of the turn, if this is the case then ok, I agree that the apex does not change! Andy Ibbott says its the point where the rider gets closest to the inside of the turn which tells me that it is a point that can change or be changed! It also means you cant miss the apex but you can hit a bad apex, I like to think of it this way because it means rather than being a fixed point its something that can be improved! Bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 OK guys this has turned into a brilliant and interesting thread, bit gutted you have come to a conclusion so soon as it became a proper question and answer session!Anyway I just wanted to fire an opinion in about something! Well, does you turn in always stay the same, regardless of the speed your travelling? Does the Apex always stay the same..? I think you'll find one alters, and one doesn't so I'd suggest the one that doesn't is more important, wouldn't you? Yes So apex is more important that the turn in... Up to now I've had it the other way around, my turn in was spot on, but the apex would continue to change depending on speed. Seems I need to switch it around So the apex stays the same! but then the apex would continue to change depending on speed! This cant be right! OK so what is the apex? Some would say that its the kerb, or edge of the track at the inside of the turn, if this is the case then ok, I agree that the apex does not change! Andy Ibbott says its the point where the rider gets closest to the inside of the turn which tells me that it is a point that can change or be changed! It also means you cant miss the apex but you can hit a bad apex, I like to think of it this way because it means rather than being a fixed point its something that can be improved! Bobby I think he understands the Apex shouldn't change... he was changing where the Apex was, and keeping his turn in fixed, but now understands thats wrong way round, well thats how I read it? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Clauds Posted October 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Thats completely correct bullet. Kept my turn in fixed and consistent and then the apex (where I got closest to inside or had most lean angle) would continue to alter about 3 bike lengths back and forward on a turn. Made me very inconsistent and was never too sure what roll on would do until I could see the end of the corner. By then it was too late for a solid drive... I can see now though that having an accurate apex reference point, will allow me more consistency and I can then play with the entry speed and drive out until I use all the track, whereas before, I just never knew what would happen... When Im that comfortable with the corner, i'll start playing by moving the apex around a little and see if I can't get a better speed. But that would have never been possible without having a solid apex first and building on that Thanks to all for the assistance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Thats completely correct bullet. Kept my turn in fixed and consistent and then the apex (where I got closest to inside or had most lean angle) would continue to alter about 3 bike lengths back and forward on a turn. Made me very inconsistent and was never too sure what roll on would do until I could see the end of the corner. By then it was too late for a solid drive... I can see now though that having an accurate apex reference point, will allow me more consistency and I can then play with the entry speed and drive out until I use all the track, whereas before, I just never knew what would happen... When Im that comfortable with the corner, i'll start playing by moving the apex around a little and see if I can't get a better speed. But that would have never been possible without having a solid apex first and building on that Thanks to all for the assistance You're welcome mate. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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