pbrown Posted November 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 OK so I did Oulton on Saturday with some mixed results. It was raining so it was a good day to go slower & look for RP's & do some practicing. I did a few sessions deciding on my RP's & consiously trying to do 2 step & 3 step. What I found I was doing was fixating on my apex's.I was getting a little bogged down with this so for the last sessions I just went out & rode keeping wide vision & not consiously looking at any of my RP's & it felt a whole lot smoother. Am I only going to get short term gains from this kinda riding, is it acceptable to process RP's on a subconcious level once youve fixed where they are? This got me to thinking about some of my problem corners around the track, I am really happy with the faster corners but struggle on the slow chicane type corners & I am beginning to think that it's because I have been fixating on the kerbs rather than seeing the whole scene. So would you say, you saw your Apex coming, then as you got to it you realised you were looking down at the floor as it came towards you, or was it something else? Which corners at Outlon were you struggling with specifically mate, as it's my local track, and I have some good knowledge of the place personally. What benefits did you feel you got from being in wide vision, as opposed to solely focused on RP's? Bullet Not quite as bad as looking down at it but pretty close. I would fixate on the apex until just before I got to it then would look up (a bit like a rabbit caught in headlights) & hunt frantically for my exit point. When I was in wide vision everything seemed to go a lot smoother & felt slower without any surprises. The worse corner was knickerbrook followed a close second by foulstons. I never managed to get a decent run into Old hall either because of puddles around the inside kerb or low sun blinding me so didn't manage to get any RP's that I was happy with. I was double apexing Druids (apex on each kerb) but wasn't sure whether I could turn in later & miss out the 1st kerb & get a straighter drive out up to lodge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 OK so I did Oulton on Saturday with some mixed results. It was raining so it was a good day to go slower & look for RP's & do some practicing. I did a few sessions deciding on my RP's & consiously trying to do 2 step & 3 step. What I found I was doing was fixating on my apex's.I was getting a little bogged down with this so for the last sessions I just went out & rode keeping wide vision & not consiously looking at any of my RP's & it felt a whole lot smoother. Am I only going to get short term gains from this kinda riding, is it acceptable to process RP's on a subconcious level once youve fixed where they are? This got me to thinking about some of my problem corners around the track, I am really happy with the faster corners but struggle on the slow chicane type corners & I am beginning to think that it's because I have been fixating on the kerbs rather than seeing the whole scene. So would you say, you saw your Apex coming, then as you got to it you realised you were looking down at the floor as it came towards you, or was it something else? Which corners at Outlon were you struggling with specifically mate, as it's my local track, and I have some good knowledge of the place personally. What benefits did you feel you got from being in wide vision, as opposed to solely focused on RP's? Bullet Not quite as bad as looking down at it but pretty close. I would fixate on the apex until just before I got to it then would look up (a bit like a rabbit caught in headlights) & hunt frantically for my exit point. When I was in wide vision everything seemed to go a lot smoother & felt slower without any surprises. The worse corner was knickerbrook followed a close second by foulstons. I never managed to get a decent run into Old hall either because of puddles around the inside kerb or low sun blinding me so didn't manage to get any RP's that I was happy with. I was double apexing Druids (apex on each kerb) but wasn't sure whether I could turn in later & miss out the 1st kerb & get a straighter drive out up to lodge. Ok mate, Right, if you find your attention being dragged down a little and then looking up like a frightened rabbit, thats a pretty good example of looking at something for too long really. You need to let go of it earlier than that, definitely, it should never feel like that, should be a nice smooth flow of information. So, you decided Wide view works well, which is great, and thats what we want. So, do you think if we found our RP's early, made them strong enough to see easily, riding around with wide view, with RP's to locate yourself in your wide view would be a compromise? What do you think it might do that frantic hunting feeling of your vison you've got now? Right knickerbrook and foulstons chicane are both tricky places, because there is something thats sort of very close to the Apex on the entry to the first part of the turns. Did you notice what it was, and did you find yourself looking at it? You definitely don't need to Apex twice in Druids either, just once, the last one. Let me know your thoughts mate. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrown Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Right, if you find your attention being dragged down a little and then looking up like a frightened rabbit, thats a pretty good example of looking at something for too long really. You need to let go of it earlier than that, definitely, it should never feel like that, should be a nice smooth flow of information. So, you decided Wide view works well, which is great, and thats what we want. So, do you think if we found our RP's early, made them strong enough to see easily, riding around with wide view, with RP's to locate yourself in your wide view would be a compromise? What do you think it might do that frantic hunting feeling of your vison you've got now? My thoughts are that I have been going about things wrongly & forgetting what I've been taught & getting carried away with TP's rather than the apex. I need to find a strong easily seen apex RP that will give me the exit I want, I then need to find a turn point that works for me at my speed so I hit my apex & am on the throttle as early as possible. When I have found these RP's for every corner then I can religate them to the back of my mind & spend as little attention as possible on them while still hitting them (Wide View?) until I need/want to change my RP's. I am using the kerbs as my apex RP but not sure how strong they are as I'm working on say 3/4 the way round the kerb rather than a fixed point that would get me within inches everytime. Right knickerbrook and foulstons chicane are both tricky places, because there is something thats sort of very close to the Apex on the entry to the first part of the turns. Did you notice what it was, and did you find yourself looking at it? Tyres covered by padding & black plastic. I even noticed the tyre tread I looked that close. Fixation again I think as given a few more sessions I could probably tell you the tread depths. OK knickerbrook, my most important apex to hit would be the last one before going up clay hill. Towards the end of the kerb there is a bit that sticks out & that's what I have been using as my final apex. TP is where the white lines meet from the circuit coming in from the left. Middle apex 2/3 way round inside kerb. TP lost in space somewhere between the 1st 2 kerbs. 1st apex also lost in space, I was originally using the inside kerb but now I've been turning when Im inline with the beginning of that kerb. I'm beginning to see a theme here & it's lack of RP's.You definitely don't need to Apex twice in Druids either, just once, the last one. I was following a circuit guide that I found on the internet which mentioned apexing on both inside kerbs. It didn't feel right hitting both kerbs (although most people seem to do that in the inters) so I'll change my apex further round the 2nd kerb & look for another TP (currently tarmac change) so I can get to my new apex. Is there a limit to how deep you can go at Druids before it gets slippy with the trees? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Right, if you find your attention being dragged down a little and then looking up like a frightened rabbit, thats a pretty good example of looking at something for too long really. You need to let go of it earlier than that, definitely, it should never feel like that, should be a nice smooth flow of information. So, you decided Wide view works well, which is great, and thats what we want. So, do you think if we found our RP's early, made them strong enough to see easily, riding around with wide view, with RP's to locate yourself in your wide view would be a compromise? What do you think it might do that frantic hunting feeling of your vison you've got now? My thoughts are that I have been going about things wrongly & forgetting what I've been taught & getting carried away with TP's rather than the apex. I need to find a strong easily seen apex RP that will give me the exit I want, I then need to find a turn point that works for me at my speed so I hit my apex & am on the throttle as early as possible. When I have found these RP's for every corner then I can religate them to the back of my mind & spend as little attention as possible on them while still hitting them (Wide View?) until I need/want to change my RP's. I am using the kerbs as my apex RP but not sure how strong they are as I'm working on say 3/4 the way round the kerb rather than a fixed point that would get me within inches everytime. Right knickerbrook and foulstons chicane are both tricky places, because there is something thats sort of very close to the Apex on the entry to the first part of the turns. Did you notice what it was, and did you find yourself looking at it? Tyres covered by padding & black plastic. I even noticed the tyre tread I looked that close. Fixation again I think as given a few more sessions I could probably tell you the tread depths. OK knickerbrook, my most important apex to hit would be the last one before going up clay hill. Towards the end of the kerb there is a bit that sticks out & that's what I have been using as my final apex. TP is where the white lines meet from the circuit coming in from the left. Middle apex 2/3 way round inside kerb. TP lost in space somewhere between the 1st 2 kerbs. 1st apex also lost in space, I was originally using the inside kerb but now I've been turning when Im inline with the beginning of that kerb. I'm beginning to see a theme here & it's lack of RP's.You definitely don't need to Apex twice in Druids either, just once, the last one. I was following a circuit guide that I found on the internet which mentioned apexing on both inside kerbs. It didn't feel right hitting both kerbs (although most people seem to do that in the inters) so I'll change my apex further round the 2nd kerb & look for another TP (currently tarmac change) so I can get to my new apex. Is there a limit to how deep you can go at Druids before it gets slippy with the trees? You need enough attention to hit your Apex's, but so much so as though you forsake the transition from Apex to exit. If you can spot them with a "wide view" of the world, great, some corners you may find you need give more attention to. Just don't get so fixated as you let your visual timing drop. I'm glad you spotted the tyres. That suggests you're actually looking at them, rather than an Apex on the track. I know, coz I've had this very same problem myself. They stand up of the floor so high, you come at them with real speed, and you think you're going to hit them with your shoulder. Its more likely to make your very tentative in those turns. I only got them better when I just stopped looking at them.. Look the track instead. Why you think it might be better to use less of the track on the exit of Druids? Have you ever noticed where the BSB boys go? Go and have a look on Youtube, there are some videos or BSB onboard laps, altought the circuit has changed, you can see where they go around druids! Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellevuetlr Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 to add to what other already said... your entry point is relative to your speed. you might want to turn in earlier or turn in faster which you guys already covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrown Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Right, if you find your attention being dragged down a little and then looking up like a frightened rabbit, thats a pretty good example of looking at something for too long really. You need to let go of it earlier than that, definitely, it should never feel like that, should be a nice smooth flow of information. So, you decided Wide view works well, which is great, and thats what we want. So, do you think if we found our RP's early, made them strong enough to see easily, riding around with wide view, with RP's to locate yourself in your wide view would be a compromise? What do you think it might do that frantic hunting feeling of your vison you've got now? My thoughts are that I have been going about things wrongly & forgetting what I've been taught & getting carried away with TP's rather than the apex. I need to find a strong easily seen apex RP that will give me the exit I want, I then need to find a turn point that works for me at my speed so I hit my apex & am on the throttle as early as possible. When I have found these RP's for every corner then I can religate them to the back of my mind & spend as little attention as possible on them while still hitting them (Wide View?) until I need/want to change my RP's. I am using the kerbs as my apex RP but not sure how strong they are as I'm working on say 3/4 the way round the kerb rather than a fixed point that would get me within inches everytime. Right knickerbrook and foulstons chicane are both tricky places, because there is something thats sort of very close to the Apex on the entry to the first part of the turns. Did you notice what it was, and did you find yourself looking at it? Tyres covered by padding & black plastic. I even noticed the tyre tread I looked that close. Fixation again I think as given a few more sessions I could probably tell you the tread depths. OK knickerbrook, my most important apex to hit would be the last one before going up clay hill. Towards the end of the kerb there is a bit that sticks out & that's what I have been using as my final apex. TP is where the white lines meet from the circuit coming in from the left. Middle apex 2/3 way round inside kerb. TP lost in space somewhere between the 1st 2 kerbs. 1st apex also lost in space, I was originally using the inside kerb but now I've been turning when Im inline with the beginning of that kerb. I'm beginning to see a theme here & it's lack of RP's.You definitely don't need to Apex twice in Druids either, just once, the last one. I was following a circuit guide that I found on the internet which mentioned apexing on both inside kerbs. It didn't feel right hitting both kerbs (although most people seem to do that in the inters) so I'll change my apex further round the 2nd kerb & look for another TP (currently tarmac change) so I can get to my new apex. Is there a limit to how deep you can go at Druids before it gets slippy with the trees? You need enough attention to hit your Apex's, but so much so as though you forsake the transition from Apex to exit. If you can spot them with a "wide view" of the world, great, some corners you may find you need give more attention to. Just don't get so fixated as you let your visual timing drop. I'm glad you spotted the tyres. That suggests you're actually looking at them, rather than an Apex on the track. I know, coz I've had this very same problem myself. They stand up of the floor so high, you come at them with real speed, and you think you're going to hit them with your shoulder. Its more likely to make your very tentative in those turns. I only got them better when I just stopped looking at them.. Look the track instead. Why you think it might be better to use less of the track on the exit of Druids? Have you ever noticed where the BSB boys go? Go and have a look on Youtube, there are some videos or BSB onboard laps, altought the circuit has changed, you can see where they go around druids! Bullet With my current apex on the 2nd kerb I am running nearly to the outside of the circuit. If I modify my apex to come out straighter then I have more scope for getting on the gas harder without running off the track. I will have a watch of the BSB stuff on youtube & see what they do although I did wonder whether they would compromise there lines to make sure no one passed them? I watched a bit of this years BSB & in some corners they seem to turn in earlier than me so am I going in too late or is it purely down to there faster entry speed? I also noticed they are not using all the width of the track on the entry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 There is something specific about what happens to the track on the exit of druids. Which perhaps compromises how much drive you can get? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrown Posted November 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 There is something specific about what happens to the track on the exit of druids. Which perhaps compromises how much drive you can get? Bullet Would that be the slight crest & camber change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 There is something specific about what happens to the track on the exit of druids. Which perhaps compromises how much drive you can get? Bullet Would that be the slight crest & camber change? Slight? Slight... So do you want to be going over that, or avoiding it and driving harder on the flatter tarmac? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrown Posted November 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 There is something specific about what happens to the track on the exit of druids. Which perhaps compromises how much drive you can get? Bullet Would that be the slight crest & camber change? Slight? Slight... So do you want to be going over that, or avoiding it and driving harder on the flatter tarmac? Bullet When your the size I am the bike stays on the tarmac regardless how big the bump so everything feels slight. I'm not sure it's an advantage but that's what tends to happen.I still think i'll go for the flatter tarmac though. I've also been thinking about the chicanes again after watching the BSB boys. I'm thinking that I am expending a lot of energy in chicanes getting from 1 side of the bike to the other & i'm beginning to wonder whether you really need to be leaning off on slower quick flick corners. I can see the point on the faster corners & it feels right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 There is something specific about what happens to the track on the exit of druids. Which perhaps compromises how much drive you can get? Bullet Would that be the slight crest & camber change? Slight? Slight... So do you want to be going over that, or avoiding it and driving harder on the flatter tarmac? Bullet When your the size I am the bike stays on the tarmac regardless how big the bump so everything feels slight. I'm not sure it's an advantage but that's what tends to happen.I still think i'll go for the flatter tarmac though. I've also been thinking about the chicanes again after watching the BSB boys. I'm thinking that I am expending a lot of energy in chicanes getting from 1 side of the bike to the other & i'm beginning to wonder whether you really need to be leaning off on slower quick flick corners. I can see the point on the faster corners & it feels right. What levels have you done mate? Have you got to Level 3 yet? If not, we develop lots about physical movement on and across the bike, and how to make it easier (I say easier, coz it's still reasonably hard work but certainly less than most riders make it). Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrown Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 There is something specific about what happens to the track on the exit of druids. Which perhaps compromises how much drive you can get? Bullet Would that be the slight crest & camber change? Slight? Slight... So do you want to be going over that, or avoiding it and driving harder on the flatter tarmac? Bullet When your the size I am the bike stays on the tarmac regardless how big the bump so everything feels slight. I'm not sure it's an advantage but that's what tends to happen.I still think i'll go for the flatter tarmac though. I've also been thinking about the chicanes again after watching the BSB boys. I'm thinking that I am expending a lot of energy in chicanes getting from 1 side of the bike to the other & i'm beginning to wonder whether you really need to be leaning off on slower quick flick corners. I can see the point on the faster corners & it feels right. What levels have you done mate? Have you got to Level 3 yet? If not, we develop lots about physical movement on and across the bike, and how to make it easier (I say easier, coz it's still reasonably hard work but certainly less than most riders make it). Bullet I'm looking to do L3 as early as possible next year. Either rockingham or stowe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 There is something specific about what happens to the track on the exit of druids. Which perhaps compromises how much drive you can get? Bullet Would that be the slight crest & camber change? Slight? Slight... So do you want to be going over that, or avoiding it and driving harder on the flatter tarmac? Bullet When your the size I am the bike stays on the tarmac regardless how big the bump so everything feels slight. I'm not sure it's an advantage but that's what tends to happen.I still think i'll go for the flatter tarmac though. I've also been thinking about the chicanes again after watching the BSB boys. I'm thinking that I am expending a lot of energy in chicanes getting from 1 side of the bike to the other & i'm beginning to wonder whether you really need to be leaning off on slower quick flick corners. I can see the point on the faster corners & it feels right. What levels have you done mate? Have you got to Level 3 yet? If not, we develop lots about physical movement on and across the bike, and how to make it easier (I say easier, coz it's still reasonably hard work but certainly less than most riders make it). Bullet I'm looking to do L3 as early as possible next year. Either rockingham or stowe. Word on the street is that there isn't going to be any Rockingham dates in 2010 I'm afraid. (yet to be confirmed). There are new additions being made to Stowe Circuit for 2010, another .5 miles is being added, and we'll also be using the south circuit too. Dates will be made official this next week, as its NEC time, and we have to have them confirmed. Look forward to seeing you on Level 3 my friend, help you work through the physical drills. You might want to get a bit of work done on your legs before you go, maybe moutain bike a bit, or something similiar.. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrown Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 There is something specific about what happens to the track on the exit of druids. Which perhaps compromises how much drive you can get? Bullet Would that be the slight crest & camber change? Slight? Slight... So do you want to be going over that, or avoiding it and driving harder on the flatter tarmac? Bullet When your the size I am the bike stays on the tarmac regardless how big the bump so everything feels slight. I'm not sure it's an advantage but that's what tends to happen.I still think i'll go for the flatter tarmac though. I've also been thinking about the chicanes again after watching the BSB boys. I'm thinking that I am expending a lot of energy in chicanes getting from 1 side of the bike to the other & i'm beginning to wonder whether you really need to be leaning off on slower quick flick corners. I can see the point on the faster corners & it feels right. What levels have you done mate? Have you got to Level 3 yet? If not, we develop lots about physical movement on and across the bike, and how to make it easier (I say easier, coz it's still reasonably hard work but certainly less than most riders make it). Bullet I'm looking to do L3 as early as possible next year. Either rockingham or stowe. Word on the street is that there isn't going to be any Rockingham dates in 2010 I'm afraid. (yet to be confirmed). There are new additions being made to Stowe Circuit for 2010, another .5 miles is being added, and we'll also be using the south circuit too. Dates will be made official this next week, as its NEC time, and we have to have them confirmed. Look forward to seeing you on Level 3 my friend, help you work through the physical drills. You might want to get a bit of work done on your legs before you go, maybe moutain bike a bit, or something similiar.. Bullet Shame you couldn't get Croft as you would probably get a massive influx of people from the NW, NE & Scotland that find the other circuits a little too far. I only thought of Rockingham as I would like to do the lean bike but thought it was only on at Rockingham. Keeping fit is always the problem, I used to commute to work a couple of times a week on my pedal bike but not now that i'm doing 110mile round tripWould this moving around have something to do with knees & tanks by any chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Would this moving around have something to do with knees & tanks by any chance? Yeap. legs, legs, and more legs.. :-) Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrown Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Would this moving around have something to do with knees & tanks by any chance? Yeap. legs, legs, and more legs.. :-) Bullet Shame Mr. Code hasn't come up with a new way to move about the bike while hanging off the bars so I can save my legs. I better get started on the training now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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