GregGorman Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 When is a rider "done" with braking? Is it when the rider fully lets go of the brake lever? Or, is it when the rider is no longer concerned about his entry speed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane.hogan Posted December 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 I just wanted add a little couple of things here. Firstly, it's a misconception to think you're going to brake all the way to the Apex, that almost never, ever happens, (i guess there are specific turns that it could happen and probably does), but most corners you never, ever get that far. Secondly, I don't think there is any amibuity about the technology, what is widely misunderstood is the gradient which we often apply the techniques we use to riders. What I mean by this, there is a requirement when coaching to apply the right level of technology to the riders ability, and in addition to this, it's also important that we get the fundamental concepts applied and understood before starting to move the envelope on further in pursuit of say laptimes and outright speed. This is ulitimately a fine point of coaching, and something that would/could be explored with your coach where applicable and relevant. Hope that helps provide an element of understanding on the why it's done the way in which it is..? Bullet I agree with the first point you make, it does rarely happen like that due to many factors. And i also appreciate the vastly differring levels of ability and understanding you come across on any typical school day.....its one of my lasting memories of my level one course and not a positive one unfortunately. So yes, i understand why the information is delivered in the way it is. Back to my point though........i'm trying to be as exact as possible in pinning down the bit i would like clarified..... By the schools method....your braking is done and eased off just as you arrive at your turn point at this turn point you steer as quickly as possible with an ideal of just 1 steering input once over you then crack the throttle asap etc etc etc Bearing the previous in mind, you cant turn very quickly when holding some brake (its a huge risk) as opposed to being off the brakes, but as i'm sure you agree there are some instances where the fastest way through the turn is to hold onto that brake a "little" longer. here is where i'm finding ambiguity....the rule in any situation is as fast as possible and finish your braking by your turn point can you see what i'm having trouble with??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane.hogan Posted December 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 When is a rider "done" with braking? Is it when the rider fully lets go of the brake lever? Or, is it when the rider is no longer concerned about his entry speed? Greg, i appreciate you taking the time to respond on the thread but im finding the approach you are taking is a bit frustrating. I appreciate the whole "ask questions to stimulate thought" approach but i would appreciate straight answers or opinions if you could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 By the schools method....your braking is done and eased off just as you arrive at your turn pointat this turn point you steer as quickly as possible with an ideal of just 1 steering input once over you then crack the throttle asap etc etc etc Thats my point, thats how we start of teaching it, thats not neccesarily how we finish off teaching it. So if we were to say, thats foundation, most simple, easiest to understand, safest method to coach students. Thats not to say that's where we'll end up at, with more coaching work and further levels. Withouth doubt thats how we coach it level 1 though. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtriple Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 When is a rider "done" with braking? Is it when the rider fully lets go of the brake lever? Or, is it when the rider is no longer concerned about his entry speed? Greg, i appreciate you taking the time to respond on the thread but im finding the approach you are taking is a bit frustrating. I appreciate the whole "ask questions to stimulate thought" approach but i would appreciate straight answers or opinions if you could. If you are getting frustrated with Greg asking questions.....look out Bullet hasn't started on you yet!!! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 If you are getting frustrated with Greg asking questions.....look out Bullet hasn't started on you yet!!! lol No, this is Greg's baby... I'm only offering school coaching insight.. He's doing a good job, though as was eloquently put earlier by someone, whilst he's attempting to keep it straight forward, over complication is most definitely the order of the day. Carry on people.. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonzilla Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Great reply Fajita Dave. When you've learned the two step properly, you can use this to adjust the speed in which you lean. As Dave said, there are two different types of lines. In a qualifying line they can open the bike up, and not have to protect any lines. When racing, when the top guys brake, they go into a corner at a higher speed than they're going to apex at. Then they trail off the brakes once they've reached the desired speed and through they go. If you get down to your actual cornering speed you'll be pushed to the side by someone who's going in at a higher speed than THEY are going to actually apex at. When you're talking MotoGP type riders and the like, you're talking about riders who've spent a better part of their racing careers having the luxury of world class coaching, and using technology that we'll never see because it quickly becomes obsolete. Most club level racers don't even really need to trail brake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Great reply Fajita Dave. When you've learned the two step properly, you can use this to adjust the speed in which you lean. As Dave said, there are two different types of lines. In a qualifying line they can open the bike up, and not have to protect any lines. When racing, when the top guys brake, they go into a corner at a higher speed than they're going to apex at. Then they trail off the brakes once they've reached the desired speed and through they go. If you get down to your actual cornering speed you'll be pushed to the side by someone who's going in at a higher speed than THEY are going to actually apex at. When you're talking MotoGP type riders and the like, you're talking about riders who've spent a better part of their racing careers having the luxury of world class coaching, and using technology that we'll never see because it quickly becomes obsolete. Most club level racers don't even really need to trail brake. Good post mate. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocadile Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Great reply Fajita Dave. When you've learned the two step properly, you can use this to adjust the speed in which you lean. As Dave said, there are two different types of lines. In a qualifying line they can open the bike up, and not have to protect any lines. When racing, when the top guys brake, they go into a corner at a higher speed than they're going to apex at. Then they trail off the brakes once they've reached the desired speed and through they go. If you get down to your actual cornering speed you'll be pushed to the side by someone who's going in at a higher speed than THEY are going to actually apex at. When you're talking MotoGP type riders and the like, you're talking about riders who've spent a better part of their racing careers having the luxury of world class coaching, and using technology that we'll never see because it quickly becomes obsolete. Most club level racers don't even really need to trail brake. I just want to add the video that everyone is refering to when talking about lines. http://www.ebike-ridingtips.co.uk/video.php <-- Video. Rossi talks about using 3 lines not 2. Qual, Race, and Def line. Please keep this topic going as it's very interesting to me as, I'm sure others too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 I just want to add the video that everyone is refering to when talking about lines. http://www.ebike-ridingtips.co.uk/video.php <-- Video. Rossi talks about using 3 lines not 2. Qual, Race, and Def line. Please keep this topic going as it's very interesting to me as, I'm sure others too. Oh that video.....! I know a funny story about that film... Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocadile Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 I just want to add the video that everyone is refering to when talking about lines. http://www.ebike-ridingtips.co.uk/video.php <-- Video. Rossi talks about using 3 lines not 2. Qual, Race, and Def line. Please keep this topic going as it's very interesting to me as, I'm sure others too. Oh that video.....! I know a funny story about that film... Bullet Well don't keep us in suspense. Please do tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregGorman Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Greg, i appreciate you taking the time to respond on the thread but im finding the approach you are taking is a bit frustrating.I appreciate the whole "ask questions to stimulate thought" approach but i would appreciate straight answers or opinions if you could. Got it. The code approach to cornering, at least to my mind, requires that your braking is done by your turn point and then once settled you're back on the gas gently." "braking is done" is mostly interpreted as the brake lever is fully released which is an incorrect understanding. Braking done means you've reached the speed at which you can turn-in and begin releasing the brakes. You're speed is set for turn in. The rate at which you release the brakes is dependant on your plan for the turn. If you watch racers in a kink, a turn with say a 40 degree arc and a straight before and after it, you won't see trail braking. It's simply a controlled release of the brakes. Watch racers in a 200 degree decreasing radius turn with a fast straight before it and an opposite direction turn after it and you'll see a careful release of the brakes as they add lean and adjust their track position and speed for the turnpoint of the decreasing radius part of the turn. Whether or not you're on the brakes the bike will continue to slow until you get on the throttle. Any good racer is planning on this - it's part of their sense of speed. They're planning for what their speed will be at their RP when they get on the throttle. Where that RP is depends on what the racer wants. To do this a racer needs a sense of speed, a sense of traction, good visual skills, body position, and some idea of what he wants out of a turn. As for students and coaching, how do you train someone who consistently overbrakes, never hits the same turnpoint twice, turns the bike too slow, has no real concept of reference points, and is fed a lot of bad data about body position? You have to seperate it into fundamentals. You develop their sense of speed by removing the brakes, their sense of traction and bike stability by throttle control, quick turn, one turn rule, etc... You give them the overall concepts of what the ideal is and why it's ideal so they can think about it and develop their own data and how it relates to their riding. If a person only does level one, doesn't read the books and relate them to their riding, they could definitely think there's a lot missing - there is. But, if a rider read the books, does the levels and relates it to their riding, they should see there's a whole package there. Twist of the Wrist I, the concept of getting a product out of a turn was introduced - having the idea of doing specific actions for a whole, overall result from the turn. Soft Science covers several plans for taking a turn and what techniques are used to produce them, their limitations and their benefits. Twist II has the specific techniques and methodology to analyze and improve your riding from almost ground zero. Like the throttle, the more lean angle you have, the less brakes you can use. The Code method, if there can be said to be one, has never been to blindly apply one technique to all of riding but to break down the skills and techniques needed to accomplish what you want by careful analysis and using all of the data available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 I just want to add the video that everyone is refering to when talking about lines. http://www.ebike-ridingtips.co.uk/video.php <-- Video. Rossi talks about using 3 lines not 2. Qual, Race, and Def line. Please keep this topic going as it's very interesting to me as, I'm sure others too. Oh that video.....! I know a funny story about that film... Bullet If it involves Andy Ibbot I think I know the funny story your talking about, I'l leave it for you to tell though! Bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Now thats an excellent reponse from Greg. No one can surely have any misunderstanding now...? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 I just want to add the video that everyone is refering to when talking about lines. http://www.ebike-ridingtips.co.uk/video.php <-- Video. Rossi talks about using 3 lines not 2. Qual, Race, and Def line. Please keep this topic going as it's very interesting to me as, I'm sure others too. Oh that video.....! I know a funny story about that film... Bullet If it involves Andy Ibbot I think I know the funny story your talking about, I'l leave it for you to tell though! Bobby Well, if you look really, really closely, and you know how Ibbott rides a bike, you'll actually see that in a couple of the shots, Valentino Rossi makes a style change, and the two look remarkably the same! Could it be Rossi learned much greatness from the Ibbott? Or could it be they ran out of time filming on the day, had to do a second morning, and Rossi had to leave? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocadile Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 I just want to add the video that everyone is refering to when talking about lines. http://www.ebike-ridingtips.co.uk/video.php <-- Video. Rossi talks about using 3 lines not 2. Qual, Race, and Def line. Please keep this topic going as it's very interesting to me as, I'm sure others too. Oh that video.....! I know a funny story about that film... Bullet If it involves Andy Ibbot I think I know the funny story your talking about, I'l leave it for you to tell though! Bobby Well, if you look really, really closely, and you know how Ibbott rides a bike, you'll actually see that in a couple of the shots, Valentino Rossi makes a style change, and the two look remarkably the same! Could it be Rossi learned much greatness from the Ibbott? Or could it be they ran out of time filming on the day, had to do a second morning, and Rossi had to leave? Bullet Sorry for the thread jack Stumpy I watched that video like a hawk and still can't really tell. Although I'm not to familiar with Ibbott's style but I would guess that some of the BP shots on lesson #9 when they're doing the chicane, I don't think that was Rossi. Give me a hint please. Edit: just found this video while searching for Ibbott race vids who's who here? Bullet are you the camera bike or the one getting chased? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane.hogan Posted December 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 "braking is done" is mostly interpreted as the brake lever is fully released which is an incorrect understanding. Braking done means you've reached the speed at which you can turn-in and begin releasing the brakes. You're speed is set for turn in. The rate at which you release the brakes is dependant on your plan for the turn. As for students and coaching, how do you train someone who consistently overbrakes, never hits the same turnpoint twice, turns the bike too slow, has no real concept of reference points, and is fed a lot of bad data about body position? You have to seperate it into fundamentals. You develop their sense of speed by removing the brakes, their sense of traction and bike stability by throttle control, quick turn, one turn rule, etc... You give them the overall concepts of what the ideal is and why it's ideal so they can think about it and develop their own data and how it relates to their riding. If a person only does level one, doesn't read the books and relate them to their riding, they could definitely think there's a lot missing - there is. But, if a rider read the books, does the levels and relates it to their riding, they should see there's a whole package there. Twist of the Wrist I, the concept of getting a product out of a turn was introduced - having the idea of doing specific actions for a whole, overall result from the turn. Soft Science covers several plans for taking a turn and what techniques are used to produce them, their limitations and their benefits. Twist II has the specific techniques and methodology to analyze and improve your riding from almost ground zero. Greg, fantstic post, thank you. It does now appear to be alot clearer. It seems my confusion has come about because you guys fill in the gaps on an individual basis. Would it be fair to say you only take those next steps when the pupil shows the ability? As you point out somebody like me who has only done level 1 and read the books (ad nauseum ) will have a slightly narrow view of the practical side of what you guys teach. On the other hand we students are encouraged to think of the twist series of books as our bible so you can see how somebody might perceive something not dealt with directly in the books as something that is perhaps missing entirely. This was my mistake, but its only after pestering you guys about it personally that its been made clear that what you guys actually do is put the meat on the metaphorical bones ie the twist books. Previously this was not something i was aware of. I'd presumed you simply taught the basic concepts in the book and that was that........Am i the only one with this perception??? And on the point of developing the basic skills..... Do you guys have a set curriculum or is it very much dependant on the individual and his/her level of ability...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 And on the point of developing the basic skills..... Do you guys have a set curriculum or is it very much dependant on the individual and his/her level of ability...... The curriculum is set, as in the struture of which drills we can coach when, so drill 1 level is throttle control and so on. So if we see something really horrible that can only be addressed when you get level 3, we'll leave it until then. We also always work on the drill that needs the most work, so for example, you may need to keep working on your throttle control, when say the drill is turn points. Once you get to level 4, it's about what you need, and we make it more specific to whichever area you need most work on. You're also part of this coaching team at this point too, as you know what we expect of you, and you also have your own goals and aspirations too, say, racing or whatever. The students ability is judged by the coach who is working with you, it's pretty well judged in most cases, though if a student perhaps came with an assumption on something, that could maybe leave them frustrated/dissapointed with something. It mustn't be forgotten that it takes time to get to be really exceptional rider, lots of time, commitment, effort, and it can be difficult to judge sometimes where people join us in their own journey of riding so as it can be tuned appropriately. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Edit: just found this video while searching for Ibbott race vids who's who here? Bullet are you the camera bike or the one getting chased? No, I'm the one directly in front of the camera. the old duffer (Ibbott) is at the very front. We're following him, see how ###### he is, so we could provide him with some considerable input afterwards. He doesn't get out too often these days ya see. That time in life. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane.hogan Posted December 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 seeing as this page is being used to float off into space and go on about other stuff.......... would i be required to go through level 1 again having done it back in 2001/02??????? would like to avoid that if poss and get on with getting stuck into the rest next year....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocadile Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 seeing as this page is being used to float off into space and go on about other stuff.......... would i be required to go through level 1 again having done it back in 2001/02??????? would like to avoid that if poss and get on with getting stuck into the rest next year....... My apologies again Stumpy, my mind just started going, and questions started poping up.........I'll stop now. To answer your question, I would say no. You would continue onto lvl2. I probably wouldn't hurt to review some of the things you learned in lvl 1 just so it's fresh in your mind. And thanks Greg for the answer that was something I was unawre of as well. Thanks for the clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuman Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Incase your interested, we had a reeeeeeeaaaaaaaallllllllllyyyyyyyy long discussion on this topic a while back. I think I posted just about all I have to say on the subject there... http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.ph...l=trail+braking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane.hogan Posted December 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 no apology needed......... from my point of view at least, i think this one has just about run its course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 would i be required to go through level 1 again having done it back in 2001/02??????? would like to avoid that if poss and get on with getting stuck into the rest next year....... Nope, onwards and upwards my friend. sorry if we got a bit of thread along the way. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrown Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 I thought cornering on the limit boiled down to physics. On the limit for a given tyre/weight/track you only have a certain amount of friction keeping the tyre from sliding. Turning creates a slip angle which uses up some of the available friction so on the limits of turning all the available friction would be taken up with turning. If you are braking as well as turning then the braking is taking up some of the available friction so there is less friction available for turning. You therefore need to be going slower or the tyre is sliding. the tyre is not sliding because youve riden off the edge of it but purely because youve gone beyond the friction level of the tyre. If the bike slows enough & the rider is good enough then he has probably just gone slightly wide & a bit slower than he wanted. Physics is physics & doesn't change. Whether any of us mere mortals can get to the real limits of friction in a controled manner is a different thing. Stand back and get ready to be flamed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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