Throttle And Lean Angle

[phillyjoey]

Ok we all know adding throttle and lean angle is bad but is it alright to hold a constant throttle and lean at the same time and if so when is it appropriate? I think this question has been eating me up a little bit looked at tow2 dont remember seeing anything but i might just be blind. I thank you for your help in advance.

[faffi]

According to the findings of Code, the bike will be at its most neutral and offer the most grip for cornering when it's just slightly off balance - as in 60% of the combined weight on the rear wheel and the remaining 40% up front. Bring your scale

 

Well, since most of us cannot do that, just having the slightest of pull taking place should be close enough.

 

As I understand it, the theory - which is proven in real life - is that this puts the suspension in a state where it can do its best job and split the load between the tyres according to what amount of grip they can provide. If you slow down, most of the load will be on the narrower front tyre, and if you accelerate it will be shifted to the rear. The harder you decelerate or accelerate, the more you will shift the load to one end, increasing the risk of losing grip. Also, the chance of upsetting the bike is greater when you have an unbalanced load.

 

So basically every time you are close to maximum lean it is appropriate to keep the bike balanced on the throttle with just a hint of acceleration.

[jasonbw]

Ok we all know adding throttle and lean angle is bad but is it alright to hold a constant throttle and lean at the same time and if so when is it appropriate? I think this question has been eating me up a little bit looked at tow2 dont remember seeing anything but i might just be blind. I thank you for your help in advance.

 

Hi Phillyjoey, although Eirik may have answered your question already, could I clarify your question? When you say "hold a constant throttle and lean", is the question about both throttle and lean being held constant, or throttle constant, but adding lean? (only assuming the potential of adding lean due to the earlier example given)

 

Maybe an example application would help too?

 

Cheers

Jason

[phillyjoey]

Thank you Eirik and Jason for the quick replys

.

 

Jason what i am talking about is approching a turn with a steady throttle because there is no need to slow down then lean the bike then roll on the throttle for the propper 40/60.

[jasonbw]

Got it Phillyjoey, I'm ducking out of my office for a day or two, I'll be sure to get back to you then, quickly though; there are times when this is a good solution to a problem, no doubt you'll have some great food for thought in the meantime from others anyway but I will write my thoughts when I'm back.

[Jasonzilla]

I'll share what I've taken from reading and studying lean angle and throttle. I'm sure once someone more experienced comes along they will correct us. When you're at static, or constant, throttle and you add lean angle, it decelerates the bike and loads a little weight on the front. As far as I know, this is OK to do. I practice it, and can be found using it at the end of a decrease radius turn. I pitch the bike pretty good sometimes, and have yet to feel any part of the bike sliding out.

[jasonbw]

Let's use an extreme example to give us some usable facts that will help us work this out.

 

Think of a world class rider who can regularly take his or her motorcycle to the traction limits, we see them aggressively changing the two things a rider can change on a motorcycle: speed, and direction.

 

Do they ever aggressively change both at the same time (successfully)?

 

Say they're needing to aggressively (quickly) change direction for a series of turns, do we also see them accelerating hard while changing direction?

 

So let's think of Speed and Direction as being on two sliding scales... if you're changing nearly 100% speed (maximum braking or Max acceleration), then you'd better be near 0% changing direction (Lean/steering).

 

Further on this point, say the rider is changing his direction gradually (say 20% of his traction limits) then the rider will have approx 80% of traction for changing speed. This applies to racing or road riding - it's simply the level of traction available for a given bike/tire combination.

 

Let's use this info now... if we are at a constant throttle then as Jasonzilla pointed out we are gradually decelerating, on a modern sportsbike with decent tires that might only be using 10-20% of the speed sliding scale.... so in this example you still have 80-90% of traction available for change of direction.

 

Real world examples:

On the 2nd apex in double apex turns we pause the gas to assist in bringing the weight forward, which shortens the forks (effect: steepening the steering head angle), which assists in tightening our line for the exit of the turn. Here you can see the sliding scales in action: you need to have traction available to move from the 'direction' scale to the 'speed' scale.

 

Long fast high speed entries... remember Throttle Control rule number 2? "In high speed turns, calculate your roll-off just as carefully as you would the roll on". If there is a benefit to be gained by maintaining the higher entry speed and not squaring the corner off, then pausing the gas and leaning in is a great solution. Again, the amount of leaning in (direction) change you can make must be tempered by the sliding scale rule... how much speed change are you currently making, so how much is available for direction change?

 

Can you now list any other examples where you can use this information? (Jasonzilla already has one)

[phillyjoey]

Jason thank you for the reply. That does make a lot of sense. I do not do much track riding. Iam trying to do more so i can only think of examples on the street. One would be starting out from a stop and turning which doesnt use much speed or lean. Another i can think of is long sweeping turns that dont use any real breaking to control speed entry. Please correct me if i am wrong.

 

 

[jasonbw]

PERFECT use there Phillyjoey! The key bit is the understanding, which you are now armed with.

 

On the street we sometimes come across this wet stuff called rain - which decreases traction right? Would having this knowledge allow you to better judge where you can hold the throttle constant while turning versus taking slower entry, steer then getting the bike to it's ideal traction scene with the gentle accelerating?

 

The info is there for you to apply now, great you asked the question.

[faffi]

How is this for throttle control and lean?

[acebobby]

Jason thanks for reminding us of Throttle Control rule number 2? "In high speed turns, calculate your roll-off just as carefully as you would the roll on".

It can be easy to get overly focused on other drills that it can be easy to let the basics slip your mind, I think I will be re reading twist 2 this week before my trackday on monday!

 

Bobby

[faffi]

How is this for throttle control and lean?

 

Did anybody watch this? If yes, weren't you the slightest impressed? If not - you're missing out

[BLSJDS]

How is this for throttle control and lean?

 

Did anybody watch this? If yes, weren't you the slightest impressed? If not - you're missing out

 

Insane!

[Cobie Fair]

Just got a chance to check this out, whee!

 

Did you guys have a look at when he was at the end of the slide and started countersteering the bike up? I had to watch if a few times to catch that.

[pmellett]

PERFECT use there Phillyjoey! The key bit is the understanding, which you are now armed with.

 

On the street we sometimes come across this wet stuff called rain - which decreases traction right? Would having this knowledge allow you to better judge where you can hold the throttle constant while turning versus taking slower entry, steer then getting the bike to it's ideal traction scene with the gentle accelerating?

 

The info is there for you to apply now, great you asked the question.

 

 

 

I'm a little confused here. Are we saying that in good conditions we can turn on a constant(steady)throttle but in poor conditions (rain etc) we need to be off the throttle to load the front more, giving better traction for turning?

[jasonbw]

I'm a little confused here. Are we saying that in good conditions we can turn on a constant(steady)throttle but in poor conditions (rain etc) we need to be off the throttle to load the front more, giving better traction for turning?

 

Gday Pjm, loading the front in the wet usually leads to a ride on the leather sled.... to explain, the quote alone doesn't give the full picture - for the full info just see the reply earlier in the thread, but in short I'm saying that in slippery conditions you would drop the entry speed, get the bike steered then stabilised asap to get the best traction scenario possible.

 

Pop a reply back if we need to tackle this properly, traction is kinda important to us riders and the last thing I want is my words to be misunderstood

[pmellett]

I'm a little confused here. Are we saying that in good conditions we can turn on a constant(steady)throttle but in poor conditions (rain etc) we need to be off the throttle to load the front more, giving better traction for turning?

 

Gday Pjm, loading the front in the wet usually leads to a ride on the leather sled.... to explain, the quote alone doesn't give the full picture - for the full info just see the reply earlier in the thread, but in short I'm saying that in slippery conditions you would drop the entry speed, get the bike steered then stabilised asap to get the best traction scenario possible.

 

Pop a reply back if we need to tackle this properly, traction is kinda important to us riders and the last thing I want is my words to be misunderstood

 

 

Hi Jason,

I'm a little more confused now.

I've read the complete thread several times but must be missing something.

I thought Phillyjoey's original question,'is it alright to hold a constant throttle and lean at the same time?' would get a simple answer. (wrong)

 

I've asked this question myself following a 'wet leather sled ride' during level 2 in the UK. Turning on a constant throttle is something that i frequently do whilst road riding. It works. Jasonzilla does too. Not sure if my crash was a result of doing so on track?

 

The emailed reply i received was, 'Turning with the throttle open lends to the rider having to use more lean angle to get to his apex as the bike is trying to push wide. The throttle should be closed on entry to transfer weight to the front to allow the bike to turn correctly. Having the throttle even a little open transfers weight to the rear, not ideal in the wet.'

 

So that's a don't do it then?

 

I appreciate that road and track riding are very different and that there's more than one way to achieve an objective.

The question i'd like to ask is, is this a bad technique to practise on the road paving the way for problems on track?

[jasonbw]

Good you replied seeking clarification PJM, we're all different so sometimes it just requires us to understand what you need a little more in order to paint the a picture that works for you.

 

Let's think back to Level 1 for a moment, we know with our Turn point drill, our procedure in getting a bike turned is straightforward:

Roll off the gas to set the entry speed, steer, once you're at your desired lean angle and on your chosen line they you stabilise it with the gas.

THIS is the ideal situation for traction when cornering - totally independent if the surface is wet or dry.

 

So from the above (and the Throttle Control drill) we know getting on the gas stabilises the bikes line, correct?

 

So what happens if we get on the gas (stabilise the bike) when we haven't yet reached our desired lean angle? The bike is going to run a wider line!

 

What happens to lean angle in the above scenario where you're suddenly running a wider line that you want to?

 

 

Is a track going to give you the same result as the road if the surface is the same? Absolutely! What applied to our on track training most certainly applies to the road, often our speeds are lower on the road so traction can mask mistakes that would be obvious at track speeds.

 

So next time if the road (or track) is wet, is it then even more critical to use the standard steering procedure underlined above?

[faffi]

Did you guys have a look at when he was at the end of the slide and started countersteering the bike up?

 

No, I was just looking at it wide eyed Although both wheels are sliding like crazy, it still boggles the mind that it is at all possible to lean over that far and recover. Makes me woder what I do wrong the few times I make the rear end slide out a little leaned over a mere 40-45 degrees

[pmellett]

Good you replied seeking clarification PJM, we're all different so sometimes it just requires us to understand what you need a little more in order to paint the a picture that works for you.

 

Let's think back to Level 1 for a moment, we know with our Turn point drill, our procedure in getting a bike turned is straightforward:

Roll off the gas to set the entry speed, steer, once you're at your desired lean angle and on your chosen line they you stabilise it with the gas.

THIS is the ideal situation for traction when cornering - totally independent if the surface is wet or dry.

 

So from the above (and the Throttle Control drill) we know getting on the gas stabilises the bikes line, correct?

 

So what happens if we get on the gas (stabilise the bike) when we haven't yet reached our desired lean angle? The bike is going to run a wider line!

 

What happens to lean angle in the above scenario where you're suddenly running a wider line that you want to?

 

 

Is a track going to give you the same result as the road if the surface is the same? Absolutely! What applied to our on track training most certainly applies to the road, often our speeds are lower on the road so traction can mask mistakes that would be obvious at track speeds.

 

So next time if the road (or track) is wet, is it then even more critical to use the standard steering procedure underlined above?

 

 

Hi Jason,

Thanks for explaining.

I think i've got it? (At last)

 

I know that once in the turn 40/60 with a smooth, gradual roll-on is ideal. It's at the turn point that was confusing me.

1. We need weight on the front to turn. (Off Gas does that)

2. On Gas = Less weight on front, bike runs wide and needs more lean angle. Not good.

3. Low road speeds and good traction have allowed me to get away with this technique. Bad practise.

4. Your example of a Double radius turn = We may stop rolling on (hold a constant throttle) to re-point the bike when rolling off could over weight the front, due to lean angle.

[Joseph7]

On 9/14/2010 at 7:29 PM, faffi said:

How is this for throttle control and lean?

This video is private now and I can't see it. Someone in this forum posted a video of a highly skilled rider doing a 180 degree turn around a single traffic cone while the rear wheel was spinning and the bike was at max lean! It was amazing and I've been searching for the video and name of the rider ever since... If anyone knows the video or rider I'm referring to. Please speak up. :)