Crash106 Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 I've been enjoying my riding more by NOT setting a turn point. Nope. Instead, I pick a spot that I want to be done braking at. By the time I reach THAT spot, I want to be off the brakes, with my arms bent, my hands relaxed and my eyes looking into the turn. That's my goal. Of course, the turn point is right there too, but I don't think of it that way. Turning is active, hard, dangerous, scary. So, I think of being off the brakes, relaxed and ready by this certain place. I could turn, or not turn, since I'm just not braking anymore. Turn. Don't turn. Adjust the volume on the radio. Make a phone call. Whatever. It just so happens that I usually drop into the turn right after that End of Braking (EOB) point and roll on the gas. This way, the bike is in such good shape, and my eyes and hands are so relaxed that it feels very natural. Anyone else see turn points, or think of EOB points, this way? Or am I just weird? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khp Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 Anyone else see turn points, or think of EOB points, this way? Or am I just weird? Nope, you're definitely not weird. Actually you've 'just' rediscovered an old racer's mantra: "you should either be braking or accelerating" (that, of course, doesn't count the very short timespan when you're actually turning the bike). Kai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 I also use 'end of braking' points rather than braking points, because the EOB point doesn't change (not unless I change my line). A 'start of braking' point, however, needs to change as you increase your speed and as you increase your rate of braking (and often a combination of the two). I also find that it's an ability that we all have, and are reasonably comfortable with. Think of street riding; you ride up to a stop sign or a set of traffic lights, and you know that you have to stop by that particular point. Normally you judge it fairly well, don't you? It also encourages you to lift your eyes up, and look at the turn point early, which gives you information on where you are heading and helps with not feeling 'rushed' as you speed towards the turn. However, I still have a turn point, as not every turn is a braking turn (sometimes you just set your turn entry speed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Personally, I never think about things like turn-in points or braking points, I just know when to brake and when to turn. Just like walking - you probably don't think where you're going to place your foot next time it moves. Even running in rough terrain, I just sort of let the feet find their way, constantly adjusting several times per second as the terrain changes. And I most definitely prefer to be on the brakes as I turn in because it gives me a feel of control and security for whatever reason. But in conclusion, I ride on instinct most of the time because it just feels natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridiculefr35 Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Well, I'd say EOB point is about what I do, did today all day as well. If you want your arms relaxed, bent so they maximise the steering angle(notably on a sports bike), I doubt you should be on the brakes in that position. If you braking, your arms would be straight anyways, right? By being off the brake, the front fork is not compressed and the tyre is free to track the turn as you steer and roll on.....well it's what I'm doing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comptonchinee Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 If you braking, your arms would be straight anyways, right? I agree with most of what you said, apart from the quoted... Straight arms are a good way to stoppie, in my experience!!! While braking, you would still want to allow the tyre to track irregularities of the road surface, and straight arms will not allow the free movement (though very tiny) of the front end. Also I think you would lose the feedback of what the front tyre was telling you about braking grip if your arms were straight... I think your arms should not ever be straight, as that puts your upper body mass into pressure on the bars, which will affect the stability of the bike... And the best way to keep the weight off the bars, and arms bent under braking, is to use back tension, leg pressure, and knee pressure into the tank, to grip the bike, remain stable, and still have that light touch on the bars... Yes even while braking... This is my opinion... Anyone agree / disagree??? Jason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Looking at GP racers, it does seem to me that they splay their legs early entering a corner, they keep them splayed while cornering (outside leg doesn't seem to be pressed into the tank at all for most) and arms are pretty straight. They seem to use shoulders a lot to control direction changes, and they cannot do much through relaxed arms, can they? Of course, these are just my highly untrained observation from watching racing on TV, and I wouldn't mind being told I see things wrongly - as long as they can explain things to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comptonchinee Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 RE: Outside leg not looking like it is pressed into the tank, I have come to my personal conclusion that it is pressed on the tank, just not the side of the tank... They are so far off the bike with their shoulders that their mid inner thigh of the outside leg has to be pressed up on the rear of the tank, almost... Cuz they HAVE to anchor themselves right?? Could be that while they splay themselves this same mid inner thigh of outside leg is bracing against braking forces??? What you think?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Could well be. I think Hayden and particularly Spies are the ones splaying their legs the most, watching them from behind it's almost like seagulls flapping their wings But of course, they could rest a lot of their weight on the inner thigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridiculefr35 Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 If you braking, your arms would be straight anyways, right? I agree with most of what you said, apart from the quoted... Straight arms are a good way to stoppie, in my experience!!! I've thought about your comment CBRkid , and I'd say it's not so much the straight arm during braking that induces a 'stoppie' but more the level of control of brake pressure applied in relation to the speed that your travelling. The need to straighten the arm, is to ensure that your weight is transferred forward during the braking to ensure maximum efficiency of the front brake. Once done, the arms return to their natural bent position(at least on a sports bike). If you control how much force you apply to the brake lever(front), you can control how rapidly you brake and how much you influence the front suspension(forks). The straight arm on the bike, ensures your mass is "one with the bike" when braking and that helps you transfer weight to the front. At the same time, this is what I've understood from mates, books, video's and my daily riding. I don't know if it's 100% correct or not....so far I've not pulled a stoppie....but I have on occasion snaked the back tyre when I initially got my bike and wasn't yet accustomed to the brakes which are a lot more "immediate" than those on my previous bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Is it the force on the handlebars that decide where the weight is, or is it also influenced by body position? Let's say you let your body push with 50 kg on each handlebar with straight arms and then lean forward and push with the same amount on the handlebars with well bent arms, will the load on the front tyre differ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridiculefr35 Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Is it the force on the handlebars that decide where the weight is, or is it also influenced by body position? - force applied on the handle bar is one action....force up or down during braking....force forward and rearward if steering. - body position will help manipulate the center of gravity, so yes for that as well but when you braking, you probably not hanging off but about to hang off. Let's say you let your body push with 50 kg on each handlebar with straight arms and then lean forward and push with the same amount on the handlebars with well bent arms, will the load on the front tyre differ? - I think the tyre load will defer because with a straight arm It would be easier to force the suspension down. - If I pushed with same amount on both handlebars, it would equire more physical effort to achieve the desired shift in weight and with a bent arm, I'd end up influencing steering more than weight shift. If I had to do this repeatedly, the physical drain would eventually create a situation where I eventually did not achieve the 50kg on each bar, or taking longer to do it, thus elongating the braking distance as well.... What say the school coaches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comptonchinee Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 If you braking, your arms would be straight anyways, right? I agree with most of what you said, apart from the quoted... Straight arms are a good way to stoppie, in my experience!!! I've thought about your comment CBRkid , and I'd say it's not so much the straight arm during braking that induces a 'stoppie' but more the level of control of brake pressure applied in relation to the speed that your travelling. The need to straighten the arm, is to ensure that your weight is transferred forward during the braking to ensure maximum efficiency of the front brake. Once done, the arms return to their natural bent position(at least on a sports bike). If you control how much force you apply to the brake lever(front), you can control how rapidly you brake and how much you influence the front suspension(forks). The straight arm on the bike, ensures your mass is "one with the bike" when braking and that helps you transfer weight to the front. At the same time, this is what I've understood from mates, books, video's and my daily riding. I don't know if it's 100% correct or not....so far I've not pulled a stoppie....but I have on occasion snaked the back tyre when I initially got my bike and wasn't yet accustomed to the brakes which are a lot more "immediate" than those on my previous bike. I hear what you are saying... Let me also say that I am always learning, and anything I say is my CURRENT view on the point, which is always up for correction, change of perception, etc etc... (Basic disclaimer) Yes brake lever pressure is the ultimate determining factor in braking force, but I see it that with straight arms, you cannot allow the front end to track the road under braking, then you have an additional thought process, and/or action in order to UNBEND your arms in order to steer the bike... Whereas my view is that with bent arms you are more in a position to flow into the corner, as you will be closer to a crouched position. Also, I think you do not have to TRY to get your weight on the front, just the act of braking smoothly and increasing pressure will automatically transfer weight to front... Too much weight on front under braking could result in bottoming out the forks, so no room for error or changes in road conditions... Also, Someone mentions centre of gravity in the post following yours, and with straight arms, the centre of gravity (in my thought process) is more over the front, whereas with bent arms, and using legs and back to support some of your weight off the bars, will make the centre of gravity of bike plus rider... well, more centred... I think that this would give a little more stability and control of the bike, as the centre of gravity is forced lower and more centred on the bike... What I took away from the school was not to have straight arms, always trying to support weight with your body, as opposed to weighting the bars, in order to let the bike do its "thing". Working in unison with the bike, and not forcing it to do something... Let's put my view point this way... If your arms are straight, and you are braking HARD, then if the front loses grip, you will not be in as good a position to recover than if your arms were bent. Bent arms to me means that sudden and involuntary movements of the bars would be allowed, whereas straight arms could mean you losing control, as the thing that you are relying on to support your weight suddenly is not anymore... With bent arms, and legs/body supporting weight, then it is just a matter of a brake pressure adjustment and/or steering adjustment to regain traction. I know I have taken it further by introducing the loss of traction of the front, but that is a sudden occurrence, that is all too possible in the real world, both on and off track... (Disclaimer # 2 - I am sure that I straight arm it on lots of occasions, but I try not to...) Coaches comments welcomed to clarify!!!! Please?!?!?! Jason. PS. I love this forum!!! Can you tell??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Just to add more confusion, I always brake with straight arms and have a habit of supporting my weight more or less solely on my hands - unless the tank is rather wide, I never touch it with any part of my body under any conditions - and I'm pretty good at braking. That is on ice, in the snow, on wet or dry asphalt, with margin, on the very limit of lock-up or locking up on purpose. Personally, I feel that having stiff arms better transmit the sensations from the tyre/road interface than bent, relaxed arms as the latter will absorb and obscure most of the signals. Well, to be frank I haven't tried to brake with relaxed arms, so that's something to test when spring arrives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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