# Throttle And Lean Angle, At The Same Time.

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A very interesting and topical post. I bumped into Bullet a couple of months ago at a TD, he caught me then passed me on the straight at Donnington. I've always had people pass me on the straights so kinda knew I had a problem. Well back in the garages and he came over and told me I was rushing the corner. I have tried to correct this by not getting on the gas as much as before. Last month I had a bit of tuition off a racer. Still the same problem, rushing the corner. His take on it was that I was on the gas far too early which had me running lots of lean angle, high mid corner speed and no chance of picking the bike up/getting on the gas without running off the track.

His suggestion was to stay off the gas until the apex or just before, then apply the throttle while picking the bike up. I couldn't believe how long he expected me to stay off the gas. Seems like my idea of 'on the throttle as soon as possible after you've turned' might have been a little early.

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So, maybe I have been doing this wrong and I am certain I have some confusion on this. Several questions;

First, does the throttle roll on mean 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%... ->... %100? If so, I have probably not done it right, especially on long flat sweepers. I would turn in, let the bike settle/reach the desired corner speed, crack the throttle and add it until the bike no longer slows and starts to slowly accelerate, transferring weight back. The throttle is held pretty constant for this part. For a long sweeper, this is pretty slow acceleration until the drive out; I would call it maintenance throttle. Towards the end, where the turn starts to open up, I obviously start the drive. Shorter corners, this all takes place quickly and the turn in, crack, maintenance, and drive all pretty much run together.

Second, does the rule (strong discouragement) of "adding throttle and lean angle" apply to a constant throttle setting which is still accelerating the bike, or only to twisting the grip more? After my last time at the school, I happened across this rule for the first time. Afterwards, I would find myself in a corner, perhaps running a little wide, I would have plenty of lean available, but would think, "Cr*p!, I cracked the throttle already, I shouldn't add any more lean..." Also, in Keith's Soft Science book, he talks about cornering plans. In the World Plan, there is stated a need for throttle and lean angle adjustments throughout the corner. I am assuming each angle adjustment is not accompanied by a throttle roll off, that wouldn't be very smooth... If adding/adjusting lean angle while at maintenance throttle/acceleration is OK, then that certainly opens up some options for me.

Similar to number two, is this rule primarily to discourage adding throttle during initial turn in? That I can understand is a good rule.

Finally (hopefully), What about a series of turns (like 4,5,6 at streets), where you are accelerating through the turns? If you are pinned going from 5 into 6, while you technically aren't "adding" throttle, you are certainly accelerating and adding RPM's as you turn in.

-Sean

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I've always had people pass me on the straights so kinda knew I had a problem. Well back in the garages and he came over and told me I was rushing the corner. I have tried to correct this by not getting on the gas as much as before.

I think Bullet was referring to your entry. That's what it sounds like when he says "rushing" the corner. You could be having a number of different problems causing you to get passed on the straights. Bike, picking up the bike coming out of the corner, comfort pushing traction limits exiting corners, getting on the throttle so late, burning into a corner then not carrying enough speed through it will effect your exit speed. I just did Auto Club Speedway (the best maintained facility I've ever been to) and until we got half way down the straight, was getting along side 1,000 race-bikes because of my exit. I pushed through a corner and could almost get along-side some of them on the straight. I had an unbelievable line through the turn. Usually though, if it's a standard entry/exit, I get passed a lot because I'm on a stock 600 with street tires. It is what it is.

If you work on getting through a corner, have a good exit, and pick the bike up as well as you can, you're doing what you're doing. BUT it all begins with corner entry.

Last month I had a bit of tuition off a racer. Still the same problem, rushing the corner. His take on it was that I was on the gas far too early which had me running lots of lean angle, high mid corner speed and no chance of picking the bike up/getting on the gas without running off the track.

His suggestion was to stay off the gas until the apex or just before, then apply the throttle while picking the bike up. I couldn't believe how long he expected me to stay off the gas. Seems like my idea of 'on the throttle as soon as possible after you've turned' might have been a little early.

Is your suspension set up? I'd guess it is. I'm usually 210-220 pounds and am now 240 because I can't exercise due to two herniated discs I'm dealing with. My stock suspension can't be set up properly because of my weight, even at my lightest. My bike won't "settle" properly, so I have to get back on the gas ASAP. You're probably getting on the throttle a little late still (most of us are) or when you're supposed to. The racer is giving bad advice, and I'll wager he doesn't even realize when he's actually getting back on the throttle himself. Unless he's a back of the pack rider.

You obviously don't want to crack on the throttle if it's a long corner, but you won't maintain speed or settle your suspension properly if you don't get back on the throttle at all. Don't worry about where you are in the corner as much as where you are in your turn input. When I unweight the bars is when I know I'm done with my turning input. THAT'S when I get back on the throttle. I couldn't tell you where that is in regards to the apex.

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pbrown I agree with Jason, I'd take the racer's advice with a pinch of salt. Lean angle comes fom a number of things but not really from when you get on the gas. If you're carrying lots of mid-corner lean angle then it sounds like either you're turning in slower than the other guys. Maybe you're line isn't very forgiving so you're turning tighter than some, I don't know, you could be turning in too early which makes a mess of everything and makes exits tough, a late apex is easier to handle if a little slower. TBH if Bullet says you're rushing/charging the turns then I'd be surprised if you weren't. The classic problem there is you're trying to go so fast on the straight and brake so late that you screw up your turn-in marker/speed. Back it off a touch and concentrate on corner entry, as this is going to give you the speed all the way down the next straight (I have similar experiences to Jason in terms of hanging onto the big boys). As for timing, I'd say you'd want to be on some throttle before the apex or you're not controlling the bike, and around the apex isn't really where you want to be going from off to on, but as long as you're not making a horse's backside of it, it's whatever suits your style.

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Wow, this discussion is taking a lot of twists and turns, and I am concerned that there are some confusions, or misunderstandings about throttle control, or pieces missing.

pbrown and Sean - I would suggest going back and re-reading the Throttle Control section in Twist of the Wrist II. Exactly WHEN and exactly HOW MUCH to roll-on is specifically explained, and also WHY the timing and amount is what it is. Understanding exactly what you are trying to accomplish makes it a lot easier to remember and apply the rule. I don't want to push you off by telling you to re-read it, but it is too much to type here and it is GREAT information best delivered complete; I wouldn't want to try to give bits and pieces of it. Also it is copyrighted material, probably not cool to retype the whole section here!

pbrown - I agree with Jasonzilla that if Bullet told you that you were rushing the corner, he probably meant your entry speed was too high, or you were late in your control actions (braking, setting up, or looking in too late). The racer that worked with you later might have identified a different problem that came about later - sometimes when riders reduce their entry speed to get more accuracy, they FEEL (at first) like they are going too slow, and as a result they get on the gas TOO hard early in the corner to try to "make up" for the "slow" entry speed. (What happens to your line when you do this?)

Recommending that you stay off the throttle completely until the apex is a different philosophy and does not follow the throttle control rule. It might allow you to get INTO the corner faster (in some cases), but it sounds to me like your goal is to get OUT of the corner faster!

Once you get a chance to read through the text again, here are some questions to answer:

WHEN exactly should you start your roll-on?

How MUCH should you roll on?

How does good throttle control affect the suspension and traction?

Is it possible to roll-on too early? If so, when would be too early and how would that affect your line?

What happens if you roll on too LATE?

What happens if you roll on too MUCH?

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Bullet stated that we were entering the corner at roughly the same speed and turning in at the same point. I was then accelerating away from him from turn entrance to apex but because of my mid corner speed I couldn't get on the throttle as much as him on the exit. I got the same comments from the racer, I was entering the turn at an acceptable speed but running crazy mid corner speed which was stopping me getting on the gas.

I will go away and read the book again, my perception of on the gas as soon as possible has always been as early in the corner as I possibly could. Not getting on the gas until just before the apex certainly makes the corner feel very slow but gives you loads of time to think on other things than max lean.

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I have not re-read that section specifically to answer this, but I am going to have a go anyway based on my understanding of the subject...

WHEN exactly should you start your roll-on?

When you have completed your turn-in and are satisfied with where the bike is pointed - as soon as possible.

How MUCH should you roll on?

Enough to transfer the weight to the rear tyre to achieve optimum cornering load on the tyres (40/60)

How does good throttle control affect the suspension and traction?

Suspension is now in the most usable range (middle third) and traction is optimised by giving each tyre the amount of load determined by the size of contact patch (40/60)

Is it possible to roll-on too early? If so, when would be too early and how would that affect your line?

It IS possible to roll on too early. Too early would be before you have completed the turn in, and before you have the bike pointed in the right direction. This would make your line widen.

What happens if you roll on too LATE?

Rolling on too late - hmmm... You would be loading the front for too long in the corner, suspension loaded, tyre loaded, scrub off alot of speed, therefore may get gas greedy to try to make up for it... Also, the bike's tendency is to go wide, and you would have to steer the bike in more and more to keep your line, therefore increasing lean angle unnecessarily... And suspension will be compressed, so possibility of dragging hard parts and lifting a tyre perhaps??

What happens if you roll on too MUCH?

Roll on too much will make the bike go wide by extending the front forks too much too quickly. Worst case you can break traction of the rear tyre and SR#1 can kick in (chopping throttle) and turn into a high side... But Throttle Control Rule # 1 would have prevented all of this. Once it is cracked on (as soon as possible after the turn in is completed), it should be rolled on smoothly, evenly and constantly for the remainder of the corner. Even in the case of rear wheel slide, checking the throttle can regain traction gradually, where chopping it obviously creates a violent regaining of traction...

So...

How'd I do??

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I have not re-read that section specifically to answer this, but I am going to have a go anyway based on my understanding of the subject...

WHEN exactly should you start your roll-on?

When you have completed your turn-in and are satisfied with where the bike is pointed - as soon as possible.

How MUCH should you roll on?

Enough to transfer the weight to the rear tyre to achieve optimum cornering load on the tyres (40/60)

How does good throttle control affect the suspension and traction?

Suspension is now in the most usable range (middle third) and traction is optimised by giving each tyre the amount of load determined by the size of contact patch (40/60)

Is it possible to roll-on too early? If so, when would be too early and how would that affect your line?

It IS possible to roll on too early. Too early would be before you have completed the turn in, and before you have the bike pointed in the right direction. This would make your line widen.

What happens if you roll on too LATE?

Rolling on too late - hmmm... You would be loading the front for too long in the corner, suspension loaded, tyre loaded, scrub off alot of speed, therefore may get gas greedy to try to make up for it... Also, the bike's tendency is to go wide, and you would have to steer the bike in more and more to keep your line, therefore increasing lean angle unnecessarily... And suspension will be compressed, so possibility of dragging hard parts and lifting a tyre perhaps??

What happens if you roll on too MUCH?

Roll on too much will make the bike go wide by extending the front forks too much too quickly. Worst case you can break traction of the rear tyre and SR#1 can kick in (chopping throttle) and turn into a high side... But Throttle Control Rule # 1 would have prevented all of this. Once it is cracked on (as soon as possible after the turn in is completed), it should be rolled on smoothly, evenly and constantly for the remainder of the corner. Even in the case of rear wheel slide, checking the throttle can regain traction gradually, where chopping it obviously creates a violent regaining of traction...

So...

How'd I do??

You did.... GREAT!!! Excellent answers, great understanding of the technique and the reasons behind it. Really well done.

Your response is so good I am hesitant to add anything at all... but in the interst of getting one point really clear for others, relative to the question of WHEN to start the roll-on: you say "When you have completed your turn-in..." and this is correct but there might be some confusion about when THAT is. So another way to say it would be "when you have completed your steering action", or "when you have reached your desired lean angle". (And, naturally, the idea is that you don't have to steer the bike again or lean over any farther later in the turn, because you have chosen a good turn point.)

So, you wrote this quite nicely - what sort of results have you been getting with the technique? I know, for me, it made me stop charging the turns and worrying about 'losing the front', and it certainly made my bike hold a line a lot better!

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Bullet stated that we were entering the corner at roughly the same speed and turning in at the same point. I was then accelerating away from him from turn entrance to apex but because of my mid corner speed I couldn't get on the throttle as much as him on the exit. I got the same comments from the racer, I was entering the turn at an acceptable speed but running crazy mid corner speed which was stopping me getting on the gas.

I will go away and read the book again, my perception of on the gas as soon as possible has always been as early in the corner as I possibly could. Not getting on the gas until just before the apex certainly makes the corner feel very slow but gives you loads of time to think on other things than max lean.

Wait, don't go AWAY, this is a really good discussion! It's definitely great to go back and read the book - I seem to pick up something new every time I do. But... it sounds like you've got this sorted out already, right? If your entry speed and turn-in point are good, and you can get right back on throttle once you've got it turned (so you've got the timing right), that only leaves one thing... so here is the exact thing to look up in the book - how MUCH should you roll on? What are you trying to accomplish with your roll on?

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This discussion has become much more relevant now that I've finished my day with CSS at VIR. Wednesday I did Level 3 and Cobie was coaching me. I was feeling really good about everything I was doing and each session I was adding another small increment of pace. In a couple corners Cobie noticed I was cracking the throttle just before turning the bike. My read on it was I was so comfortable with my speed I was ready to get into the gas early so I was starting my roll just a fraction before tipping in. It didn't cause me any issues since my pace is still rather modest, but we corrected the matter so it wouldn't develop into a habit. I then discovered a beneficial side effect from this detection/correction and that was even more improvement with my quick turn. Since I was ready to get on the gas faster, I found myself turning the bike faster. It felt very well synchronized by the end of the day and I felt much more confident than ever before.

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Bullet stated that we were entering the corner at roughly the same speed and turning in at the same point. I was then accelerating away from him from turn entrance to apex but because of my mid corner speed I couldn't get on the throttle as much as him on the exit. I got the same comments from the racer, I was entering the turn at an acceptable speed but running crazy mid corner speed which was stopping me getting on the gas.

I will go away and read the book again, my perception of on the gas as soon as possible has always been as early in the corner as I possibly could. Not getting on the gas until just before the apex certainly makes the corner feel very slow but gives you loads of time to think on other things than max lean.

Waiting to get back on the gas will also compromise stability. Maintenance throttle is actually a slow acceleration. If you're going through a longer corner, you still need to apply throttle, but just enough to keep speed, your line, and weight transfer. When you start picking the bike up is when you start really throttling up. The topic of adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is accurate. DON'T DO IT. BUT, increasing throttle and reducing lean angle IS the true goal. The more straight up the bike is, the more throttle you can add.

If Bullet is accurate in his assessment of your riding, it sounds like you'd be pushing out too soon. Going wide. Is that right?

The racer is off, I would still say. What you are doing is accurate. Brake, turn, throttle. Apex belongs nowhere in that statement. It's irrelevant in regards to throttle application.

I have not re-read that section specifically to answer this, but I am going to have a go anyway based on my understanding of the subject...

WHEN exactly should you start your roll-on?

When you have completed your turn-in and are satisfied with where the bike is pointed - as soon as possible.

How MUCH should you roll on?

Enough to transfer the weight to the rear tyre to achieve optimum cornering load on the tyres (40/60)

How does good throttle control affect the suspension and traction?

Suspension is now in the most usable range (middle third) and traction is optimised by giving each tyre the amount of load determined by the size of contact patch (40/60)

Is it possible to roll-on too early? If so, when would be too early and how would that affect your line?

It IS possible to roll on too early. Too early would be before you have completed the turn in, and before you have the bike pointed in the right direction. This would make your line widen.

What happens if you roll on too LATE?

Rolling on too late - hmmm... You would be loading the front for too long in the corner, suspension loaded, tyre loaded, scrub off alot of speed, therefore may get gas greedy to try to make up for it... Also, the bike's tendency is to go wide, and you would have to steer the bike in more and more to keep your line, therefore increasing lean angle unnecessarily... And suspension will be compressed, so possibility of dragging hard parts and lifting a tyre perhaps??

What happens if you roll on too MUCH?

Roll on too much will make the bike go wide by extending the front forks too much too quickly. Worst case you can break traction of the rear tyre and SR#1 can kick in (chopping throttle) and turn into a high side... But Throttle Control Rule # 1 would have prevented all of this. Once it is cracked on (as soon as possible after the turn in is completed), it should be rolled on smoothly, evenly and constantly for the remainder of the corner. Even in the case of rear wheel slide, checking the throttle can regain traction gradually, where chopping it obviously creates a violent regaining of traction...

So...

How'd I do??

Incredible post, Jason. You've explained it very well.

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This discussion has become much more relevant now that I've finished my day with CSS at VIR. Wednesday I did Level 3 and Cobie was coaching me. I was feeling really good about everything I was doing and each session I was adding another small increment of pace. In a couple corners Cobie noticed I was cracking the throttle just before turning the bike. My read on it was I was so comfortable with my speed I was ready to get into the gas early so I was starting my roll just a fraction before tipping in. It didn't cause me any issues since my pace is still rather modest, but we corrected the matter so it wouldn't develop into a habit. I then discovered a beneficial side effect from this detection/correction and that was even more improvement with my quick turn. Since I was ready to get on the gas faster, I found myself turning the bike faster. It felt very well synchronized by the end of the day and I felt much more confident than ever before.

Good for you. I was doing pretty well when I attended my first CSS. I could lean pretty far over and still maintain traction. At some point it will give. Stay away from that habit. Easily one of the worst habits a track rider can have.

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Bullet stated that we were entering the corner at roughly the same speed and turning in at the same point. I was then accelerating away from him from turn entrance to apex but because of my mid corner speed I couldn't get on the throttle as much as him on the exit. I got the same comments from the racer, I was entering the turn at an acceptable speed but running crazy mid corner speed which was stopping me getting on the gas.

I will go away and read the book again, my perception of on the gas as soon as possible has always been as early in the corner as I possibly could. Not getting on the gas until just before the apex certainly makes the corner feel very slow but gives you loads of time to think on other things than max lean.

Wait, don't go AWAY, this is a really good discussion! It's definitely great to go back and read the book - I seem to pick up something new every time I do. But... it sounds like you've got this sorted out already, right? If your entry speed and turn-in point are good, and you can get right back on throttle once you've got it turned (so you've got the timing right), that only leaves one thing... so here is the exact thing to look up in the book - how MUCH should you roll on? What are you trying to accomplish with your roll on?

Had a bit of a read and more of a think on what you've all said and what the racer was telling me. I think i've not really understood or explained what the racer told me which has made it a little confusing. So here goes.

1. Go into the corner at the same speed/place as now and no more than 2% faster.

2. Only lean to 90-95% for most of corner.

3. Dip to 100% of required lean angle prior to apex to ensure you hit the apex (distance before apex would vary depending on corner type)

4. Use knee as lean angle gauge and also as a point of timing.

5. As soon as knee touches the track get on the throttle smoothly and progressively all the way thru' the corner.

6. At the apex start picking the bike up while applying even more throttle.

At point 3 is when I have finally finished turning and reached my maximum lean, I am getting on the throttle at this point and am therefore complying with 'as soon as possible'.

point 5 agrees with throttle rule #1.

Looking at it this way the racer is just giving me a point of timing for my roll on.

The dip just prior to the apex does not seem to comply with only one turn input for the corner but does seem to tie in to the 'world plan' in the Soft Science book.

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pbrown,

Just out of curiosity, what are you doing with the throttle before step 3?

That incidentally, is what I was wondering about earlier; I would crack the throttle to balance the bike in step 2, but would then feel like I couldn't add any additional lean angle because I was already "on" the throttle. Not that it felt dangerous or was leaning too far, just that it was "wrong".

-Sean

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pbrown,

Just out of curiosity, what are you doing with the throttle before step 3?

That incidentally, is what I was wondering about earlier; I would crack the throttle to balance the bike in step 2, but would then feel like I couldn't add any additional lean angle because I was already "on" the throttle. Not that it felt dangerous or was leaning too far, just that it was "wrong".

-Sean

Throttle is totally closed until step 3 which is the bit that was confusing me as I had always been straight to full lean and on the throttle early. I guess not being at full lean gives you a few more options if your racing such as trail braking.

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Had a bit of a read and more of a think on what you've all said and what the racer was telling me. I think i've not really understood or explained what the racer told me which has made it a little confusing. So here goes.

1. Go into the corner at the same speed/place as now and no more than 2% faster.

2. Only lean to 90-95% for most of corner.

3. Dip to 100% of required lean angle prior to apex to ensure you hit the apex (distance before apex would vary depending on corner type)

4. Use knee as lean angle gauge and also as a point of timing.

5. As soon as knee touches the track get on the throttle smoothly and progressively all the way thru' the corner.

6. At the apex start picking the bike up while applying even more throttle.

This sounds rather complex, and it requires you to add a steering input at a point where you are at near-maximum lean, and have the front heavily loaded due to deceleration and cornering forces. It seems like you would have to put a LOT of attention on your front wheel traction, to make sure you don't overload it and lose it during that second steering input.

What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? Why is it necessary to only lean 90-95% at the beginning of the corner and wait so long to apply the throttle, versus just making one quick turn input straight to max lean, then starting your roll-on?

Also, we never really answered the question of how MUCH to roll-on, did you have a chance to look up EXACTLY how much roll-on Keith recommends, and why?

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One thing to make sure we are all clear on is the terms being used. We have seen the term "cracked on" mean different things in different countries. As Keith knew it might, he made sure that term was defined: "opened a slitght bit into operation" Twist 2, page 11.

In some places in the world "cracked on" means get into the gas hard!

What might help here is to look at what is stabilizing the bike mid turn, max lean angle, and what is trying to begin the DRIVE off the turn, these are not the same things.

The problem with adding lean angle with either a slight roll on (10-20% as stated in the book) or the drive which would have more on the rear tire, is simply asking the tire(s) to do too much. This can overwhelm them suddenly and often NO ONE can recover. Look at those highsides of Lorenzo a few years back. He was adding throttle and lean angle at the same time! Best bike, best tires, best electronics, top rider, and he still got ejected for a technique error.

Let me know how this seems to you guys.

Best,

CF

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I think i can chip into this thread as i used to habitually add lean angle and throttle at the same time, i knew it was wrong but whenever i started pushing hard, id dump good habit and revert to winding on the gas as soon as i had started steering and WELL before max lean angle.

The trouble i find with adding throttle too soon is the bike starts to run wider as soon as you start unloading the front, which ruins your drive out of the corner, I tended to come out slower because i had to slow my roll on to stop myself running off the track since id started running wide before the bike wasnt even remotely pointed down the next straight, my entry speed was mediocre, my mid corner speed was excellent, but my exit was rubbish because my mid corner speed was so high i was heading out wide.

I spent a while trying to get rid of that habit and i think it's paid off, my trouble now is that i feel the SR's coming on from "going in too fast" when i know im not, because im still used to slow entry speed and a slow roll on through the corner, rather than fast entry, flick it down, stand it back up and drive out hard.

What im doing at the moment, and i'm sure its not perfect but its certainly better than my old technique is:

1. I tend to set up my body position before doing anything else, so ill shift 1 cheek off to the side im turning

2. Roll off and brake as simultaneously as possible when i reach my braking marker. As im getting closer to my turn in point, ill start to reduce my braking and blip down the gears to whatever gear i need for the corner.

3. Depending on how hot ive gone in and whether i thinks its needed or not, ill trail off the front on the way in, if im a little slow i wont trail brake, if im a little fast i will to make sure i hit my apex.

4. At turn in i drop my knee out and start to drop my upper body with the bike, I stay off the gas and increase lean angle untill im on for the apex of close to it. Just as i clip max lean angle, which is usualy near the apex, usually just before, ill start thinking about my roll on.

5. First thing i do with the roll on is take the slack out of the chain with a tiny bit of throttle, as i find if i just crack it on the chain lashes and it unsettles the bike and forces me to stand the bike up and ruins the drive. I get the throttle very gently open, maybe 5% open or less, i start to stand the bike up as im doing this and then roll on as smoothly and quickly as i can.

To have a decent roll on i think the bike needs to be pointed almost in the direction your intending to go out of the corner, since once you roll on the bike will start going alot straighter, if you want to go down the track, roll on once your almost facing down the track, if you want to go off onto the grass, roll on as soon as your beyond the turn in point.

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Can you follow TC rule1 in a sweeper?

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I would like to get something clarified; are we literally talking adding throttle, or acceleration? I'll try to explain. If you are slowing down for a corner and add throttle before you've reache maximum lean, this is described as a bad thing. And I agree. But what if you are entering an S-section and are already accelerating as you enter the first corner? Is the the acceleration as you lean over that is problematic, or is it the change of attutude that comes from adding throttle after it was shut?

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I am finding myself more confused, not less, the more of these I read. As much as I love forum banter, what I'm looking for is knowledge. To simplify for my own sanity's sake:

When entering a single turn (not a set of switchbacks) you basically coast in gear from the turn entry point to the apex, at the apex you roll on and complete the turn. Correct?

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I am finding myself more confused, not less, the more of these I read. As much as I love forum banter, what I'm looking for is knowledge. To simplify for my own sanity's sake:

When entering a single turn (not a set of switchbacks) you basically coast in gear from the turn entry point to the apex, at the apex you roll on and complete the turn. Correct?

Pappa;

If you have access to both, Keith offers a detailed explaination in Chapter V (pages 34-35) of the Twist of the Wrist Vol. I. and in Section 1; Chapter 2 (pg.7) in Twist of the Wrist Vol. II. Your question has many parts to its answer and taken as a whole you should get a better understanding of how to approach and exit a corner. If not, then come back and we'll try again.

Mika

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I have the book, I have read page 7 about 20 times. What I don't really see is a clear picture that says "roll on here, but NOT here." Lots of physics on what happens when the throttle is applied, not a lot on "here's the correct place to DO IT" I had read TOTW I and II about 50 times, with dog eared copies covered in highlighter ink and I had been doing it completely wrong until I sat in class and Dylan drew a corner and said "HERE" is where you apply the throttle.

I'm going to go re-read chapter 4

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Chapter 4 helps and watching onboard video of racers helps. It really isn't "coasting" into the corner, the throttle isn't completely and totally closed and they aren't in neutral or with the clutch pulled in. What you'll see, time and time again, is that they come in to a corner at a specific rev range and speed, as they approach the apex that speed decreases and the revs drop, but they don't go to 1,000rpm, they may drop down to 7 or 8,000 RPM. Once they hit the apex (or near it, no one is perfect every lap, every time) they roll on from the 7k or so that they were at coming and be as much as 2,000 RPM higher by the time the bike is upright again.

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I am finding myself more confused, not less, the more of these I read. As much as I love forum banter, what I'm looking for is knowledge. To simplify for my own sanity's sake:

When entering a single turn (not a set of switchbacks) you basically coast in gear from the turn entry point to the apex, at the apex you roll on and complete the turn. Correct?

You start your roll-on as soon as possible, once you have completed your steering action.

It is not workable to tell you exactly WHERE in the corner that will be, because every corner is different - if I told you to start your roll on "halfway between your turn point and the apex" that might be fine for one corner, but too late or too early for another. At the school, we demonstrate the roll-on point for various corners by leading the student and giving a hand signal to show exactly where the coach begins the roll-on. We do NOT wait for the apex.

(To be clear, when I say "complete your steering action" that does not mean necessarily mean you are going straight, it just means you are no longer pushing on the handlebar to change the bike's lean angle and direction. Example, I reach my turn point, steer the bike, then relax the pressure on the handlebar and start my roll-on to stabilize the bike, on the arc that will carry me to my apex.)

Many new riders steer the bike very slowly (no quick turn) and for them it may take half the turn to complete the steering, so they tend to have a late roll-on. Once they learn to quick turn the bike then get right back on the throttle, their cornering and control of the bike improve drastically.

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