Spooked By Slides

[gogogusgus]

So how does all this relate to TW about using a tire that matches your skill level. Feel the slide then advance tires otherwise you'll never get that loving sliding feeling?

 

Part 1, reinforces this, see Dunlop K81.

 

IAW CSS recommendation for dirt experience try FAQ and Reviews of that Mystery School that CSS instructors attended or a school comparable to Cornerspin, a dirt school designed solely for racers

 

Gus

[mugget]

Gotta love supermoto!

 

Johnny, it's interesting that you rode MX and still aren't totally comfortable with sliding a road bike, that's one thing that most people would usually recommend. Why do you think it's turned out that way for you?

 

Getting back to the topic of losing confidence after a slide, I think this comes down to having a realistic expectation and accurate understanding of what will happen. For example if you have an idea in your head that a slide means you're going to crash, then it's just creating an unrealistic fear. Sliding does not necessarily mean you'll crash, just as locking the front or rear wheel does not necessarily mean you'll crash. The other thing is having an accurate understanding of traction - it's not a case of grip or no grip, there is a steady transition from static friction to sliding friction. I guess it's easy for some people to accept, others may have to just try and drill it into their heads that it is possible to slide without crashing. Moving to the next step - if you're expecting something it would be hard for it to surprise or spook you and affect your confidence. So if we're riding with the expectation of experiencing a slide, it won't be as likely to spook us.

 

I think it comes down to experience as well... alot of riders shy away from riding in the wet, but I think that's where I started to learn about the limit of the tyres and wet traction. Especially riding on a wet track - that is a special type of fun, really easy to get the rear tyre spinning on a drying track. And as they say - you can't buy wet track time, so I would always go for it. There's nothing to be scared of, it's the same as riding anywhere else in that you just ride to the circumstances and within your limits.

 

Another thing I do is purposely looking out for little irregularities in the road - most people prefer to avoid them, but you can learn something by riding them. There is one particular spot on my daily commute that has a kind of a crease/crevice in the tarmac, I think it first happened when I was in a bit of a rush to get home so I was using a bit more throttle coming over the bump (which is around mid-corner) so the rear moved around a bit. After that I would keep using that spot to get the feel of the rear moving around by purposely using more throttle. All this was pretty slow, maybe 20-30km/h so it wasn't too intimidating and it's something I could do on my way home any day I wanted.

 

I've never ridden dirt bikes, but have ridden sportsbikes on dirt roads and wet, muddy, rocky fire trails. I think that experience all contributes to developing an understanding of traction. Maybe doing some different type of riding is what's needed - perhaps you can go and plan a road ride that takes a detour on some dirt? The prospect of fooling around at low speeds on dirt is alot less daunting that trying to learn all about traction at high speeds on a race track.

 

I'm also wondering if mountain biking could be a good kind of crossover training to let you experiment with traction? You can do alot of the same kind of things like sliding the front, locking the rear wheel at corner entry/midpoint/exit to get a feel for it. Maybe the next best thing if you don't have access to a dirt bike?

[faffi]

You are right on the money that it is in the head, most of it. I have ridden through several winters, on ice and through deep snow, and I'm OK with it. I do not like it, but I have had no trouble with it. I have ridden quite a few miles on gravel, and in many ways I dislike that more than ice and snow, probably because I know it generally has good grip but it's often hard to know when grip is poor. Same with rain; you can stop nearly as quickly in the wet as in the dry, and you can corner pretty fast, but there is always that scare that you can lose grip instantly and to such a degree that you cannot recover. Especially if you hit a slick oil/diesel spill, something hard to see when its raining.

 

There is no doubt that practice helps, but despite having had plenty of slides - front, rear and both ends at the same time - over the years, I still strongly dislike the feeling.

[mugget]

Strongly dislike the feeling of sliding? Are we just talking front tyre, rear, or both? I'm really surprised to hear about the dislike of sliding, I had an idea in my head that fast and experienced riders all just slide bikes around for the fun of it.

 

Reminds me of a local race that I was flag marshalling at, the leader was a fair way in front of the pack and it looked like he was just playing around, backing it in down a fast downhill section sliding around 40-50m perfectly slotting into the apex. Kinda like this:

 

 

Especially if someone is riding with a goal of achieving faster lap times I would have thought there is no other choice but to become comfortable with spinning up the rear (even just a little bit), since that's where maximum traction & drive is?

[faffi]

I do not think you can win world level racing without A LOT of sliding tyres, front and rear. Not the sort you easily see, perhaps, but if the tyres aren't sliding you aren't riding hard enough.

 

However, despite 32 seasons of road riding, I will not proclaim myself as experienced. Nor am I fast in the context you think of. Rather slow. Yes, I think it is cool to watch Stoner manhandle and slide his GP racers. But it's not something I long for when it comes to riding my bikes on public roads. And, even if it may sound more than a little strange from a member on this board, not do I fancy track riding.

 

So consider me the anomaly

[Cobie Fair]

Eirik,

 

Just curious what track riding you have done? We know we haven't yet had you at the school, but curious what track riding you had done so far.

 

Best,

CF

[faffi]

On bike? Twice visited a local go-kart track - they even race 1000cc bikes there, but I was on a small bike that made the track a little "bigger" - and both times began losing interest on about the second lap. After 3 laps the poor Avons on my Honda 250 were so hot that the bike was two-wheel-sliding around just about every corner. I think I lasted 8 laps the first visit and 6 laps the second time, on a Honda 500 this time - I just had to get confirmation that it really was as boring as I remembered. It was, despite better tyres and a bit more power.

 

Also done 5 ten-minute sessions driving go-karts, which I found equally boring after a couple of laps. Even winning each heat and the final failed to raise my enthusiasm. All this took place years ago, however, in the '90s. Actually, this season has been the first ever when I have bothered to try and learn and even change my way of riding consistently - from 1980 until 2005 I solely relied upon instinct. In 2005 I began braking earlier and getting on the throttle earlier so that I could better match my brother - we were both equally fast from A to B, but since I would still be braking when leading on the road when he was hard on the throttle, he got upset when we rode together. Or if I were following, I got upset by his early braking and ensuing high cornering speed. Getting into synch didn't cause much problems, but I must admit that I do prefer to trail brake very deep still if I follow what feels most natural. But the advances I made this fall was an eye-opener, so I may even convince myself to do a school day just to speed up the learning and get some corrections. You never know, it may save my hide one day.

 

See what you made me do? Another long rant instead of a simple answer to your question I must learn to constrain myself

[gogogusgus]

[quote

I'm also wondering if mountain biking could be a good kind of crossover training to let you experiment with traction?

Anyone here have mountain s biking experience

 

Gus

[ktk_ace]

You are right on the money that it is in the head, most of it. I have ridden through several winters, on ice and through deep snow, and I'm OK with it. I do not like it, but I have had no trouble with it. I have ridden quite a few miles on gravel, and in many ways I dislike that more than ice and snow, probably because I know it generally has good grip but it's often hard to know when grip is poor. Same with rain; you can stop nearly as quickly in the wet as in the dry, and you can corner pretty fast, but there is always that scare that you can lose grip instantly and to such a degree that you cannot recover. Especially if you hit a slick oil/diesel spill, something hard to see when its raining.

 

There is no doubt that practice helps, but despite having had plenty of slides - front, rear and both ends at the same time - over the years, I still strongly dislike the feeling.

Can I chime on on this form my view?

 

 

 

 

Im on a seriously underpowered bike that has next to no chance of sliding under power on a track BUT

 

i can slide it quite unintentally (most of the time) or intentionally (on some slow speed corners under the right conditions + experience)

 

Its mostly on manhole covers and yellow/ white lines where they skim on the silica content (TRAPS!)

 

the roads here are unforgiving as heck because of the 2 factors I mentioned but i do use them to my advantage sometimes.

 

thats how I do it mostly when cold or in the wet :

 

 

run over a manhole cover/ huge stripe of white line (zebra crossings big in the start of the turn, great city planning indeed...FML)

 

WITH a bit of lean~

 

the back tire of bike will naturally spin on said slippery road trap as its powered by the engine

 

technically i adjust the throttle a wee bit during the slide (give it a wee bit more gas, not pinning it) and the bike hooks up once the rear contact patch gets some proper road beneath it.

 

A friend of mind commented that he stays the heck out of said road traps and even panics if he runs them over at normal speed (SR?)

 

but after seeing my line on some of said roadtrap ridden lines, he says im micro-sliding all over the damn place running over road traps while in control.

 

My take on this is when you slide, the bike might accelerate abit more and if the rear tire engine brakes on exit , its going to cause a bigger prob

 

The dvd explicitly shows you that a constant / smooth throttle on wet makes you stabilize the bike but doesnt show you what to do on a (micro)slide so thats my take...

 

thats my own self taught version of throttle control on roads, it makes me slide but still be in control.

 

 

 

 

 

[gogogusgus]

Where do u ride and

What is a micro slide?

[ktk_ace]

Where do u ride and

What is a micro slide?

 

I ride somewhere in Asia.

 

 

 

 

 

Microslide eh... umm... its like a controlled slide but it usually last less than a second . grip>slide>grip ?

 

 

[OveRReV]

i slid my front tire a couple of times on 2 different corners on separate sessions, all during corner entry, i traced it to the lack of rebound damping when the fork oil got hot & the front tire not getting up to temps as the hot psi is a bit low, running BT003 T3, it didn't spook me that much, in fact it made feel like one of the 500GP riders of old that used to brake & slide the front to prevent oversteering, his name escapes me though. anyway it was quite fun & i'm used to slides when i ride my scooter at a local go kart to practice & keep me in shape. fun times.

[faffi]

Freddie Spencer used to slide the front going into every corner and then, just before the front folded, spin up the rear to take load off the front so that it would regain grip. It was later immitated by several other riders, like Lawson and Rainey.

[lukem]

Strongly dislike the feeling of sliding? Are we just talking front tyre, rear, or both? I'm really surprised to hear about the dislike of sliding, I had an idea in my head that fast and experienced riders all just slide bikes around for the fun of it.

 

Reminds me of a local race that I was flag marshalling at, the leader was a fair way in front of the pack and it looked like he was just playing around, backing it in down a fast downhill section sliding around 40-50m perfectly slotting into the apex. Kinda like this:

 

 

Especially if someone is riding with a goal of achieving faster lap times I would have thought there is no other choice but to become comfortable with spinning up the rear (even just a little bit), since that's where maximum traction & drive is?

 

I've seen that clip/rider before, but the style of riding doesn't make sense. On corner exit, he stands up on the pegs, puts weight over the front and essentially does a high speed rolling burnout! In this instance, it's just showboating for the guy with the camera rather than any kind of technique worth looking it.

[mugget]

Yep, that clip is definitely in the 'just playing around' category. When I mentioned about spinning up the rear tyre to the point of maximum traction and drive I'm not talking about the stuff in that clip, at least in my experience it seems that by the time someone has easily spotted that you're actually sliding, you've already lost speed. I think it would be really hard for a spectator to spot the point where the tyre has max traction and is slipping just enough.