Hotfoot Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Someone earlier posted that they didn't really "click" on a skill until they followed a coach at a school. Which made me wonder, have others had that experience? So... those of you that have been to a CSS school, and read Twist of the Wrist II (or Soft Science) and/or watched the Twist II DVD: When did you get the skills to WORK for you, and really change your riding and/or lap times? Were you able to read about a skill (or skills) in the book or watch it on DVD, then try it for yourself to make it happen? Or did it take coming to the school and getting some personal coaching to REALLY make certain skills work for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash106 Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 I haven't been to CSS yet, but had a similar experience with the Ride Like a Pro videos versus the live class. I watched the videos and learned what to do. I went and practiced and got it to work OK. But when I took the class, everything clicked. I don't remember the riding instructor telling me anything different from the instructions on the DVD, but doing all the exercises in sequence and SEEING other people both fail and make it work, was very helpful. Way more helpful than it should have been. I honestly believe this is from the Mirror Neorons in our brains that are designed to help us learn by watching. Monkey see, monkey do. Maybe it's telepathy or confidence borrowed from the instructor. Maybe it's from getting to ask those few questions that are really bothering you. I just know it worked. At the same time, I've read both Twist books multiple times and watched the video over and over. After all that, I finally learned the most about the value of standard throttle control. Knowing WHY the motorcycle wants to go into corners OFF throttle, but go through them ON throttle was really helpful. Suddenly, the bike wasn't bucking and coughing, then surging and leaping about. My SRs went way down and riding became enjoyable again. I've also learned some very valuable real world lessons about vision and choosing the right cornering speed just from reading. So, you certainly can learn a lot from the books and videos. Isn't that why Keith made them? I say, if at all possible, do both. If you can't make it to the track, or can't make it this year, keep learning and experimenting at home and save your pennies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonzilla Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 I didn't get anything going with the book. It wasn't until the school, when I started seeing what they were talking about, and got the instruction in the class is when I was able to figure out what they were talking about. The video came MUCH later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerThat Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 I haven't been to CSS yet, but had a similar experience with the Ride Like a Pro videos versus the live class. I've been quietly lurking on this board a long time. I'm a CSS student, a big fan of the program. This is a GREAT message board, and the Superbike School provides it to us, diligently staffed with professional coaches (including Cobie, the chief coach!) and pros like Will and Steve, it's an amazing service. The board is friendly and very helpful and provided to us for for FREE. In the last two weeks alone I've seen people post info on at least two competitors' books and at least three competitor schools on this board. I've even someone comparing a competitor school directly against CSS - even though the poster had never attended a CSS school. Recently someone who was coming overseas just to attend CSS asked for info on CSS tracks and someone recommended they go to ANOTHER provider's event at a track the Superbike School doesn't even use. What makes you guys think this is OK? Maybe I am just over protective of the school but I think it is unfair to Keith Code, and the staff who support this board, for you guys to post stuff about any organization or school or book that competes against the Superbike School, ESPECIALLY in reponse to a question specifically about the school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 I would love to meet up with coaches and stuff and school but i personally cant afford it financially and distance wise. Did share with a peer who is around the same level with me and we continue to troubleshoot + learn from the book+dvd . buddy system perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Rutter Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 The biggest difference for me at the school was the chance to try everything in a safe environment, rather than on the street or at a track-day where the adrenaline tends to override any sensible goals like drill-practice. I'd read and absorbed the information on the quick-turn many times, watching the DVD too, but it was only after attending the school and sitting through the briefing, watching a further video of someone slapping the bike onto its side on every corner and Keith telling us that we'd have zero chance of losing the front, that it really clicked for me. Going out in the following session and giving it a go was a revelation, something that no matter how many times I'd read the books or watched the DVDs that I'd really have grasped without attending the school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 RogerThat, you can also see it in a different way. If CSS cannot stand to be compared with its competition, it really isn't good enough. OTOH, chances are - like Jason (I think) wrote - that CSS will only come up stronger when compared with the competition. And perhaps CSS may even pick up one or two things that can be useful for them and help them get even better. I do agree that it's not good conduct to participate on this board only to throw garbage at the school - nobody wants to see that. But I do think that the school is good enough and so well documented that it will not be hurt by having other stuff mentioned. In fact, I think it can be vital in order for the school to continue its development to have other inputs - it prevents the risk of haveing an almost religious following that sort of goes blind in their own splendliness that can come as a result of not having correcting and/or questioning inputs. I have personally tried to challenge the members and instructors and, I must admit, have mostly been proven wrong. But it makes people think - me included - and helps improve understanding. Well, mine, at least At least that's my 2 cents. Feel free to differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warregl Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 To the question Hotfoot posted, I picked up quite a bit of knowledge form the books and the DVD, as you would expect, however things really started clicking after spending time on track, debriefing with a coach, and then going back to the books and DVD between schools. Some examples, the Two Step and the Pivot Point, both clicked only after working on them at the track. The tech is right there in the books, for about $20 each you can have the "secrets" to cornering, but for me at least the school's format was what made the difference. And I have to say I'm with Eirik, bashing the school on it's own forum would be disrespectful and down right crass. However I would venture to guess that Keith would appreciate honest feedback and comparisons. First, because his program is top notch and can stand with any motorcycle education program in the world, and quite honestly tower over the vast majority of them. And second because he and his team believe in education. I would also like mention that I spoke with Cobie about another school (Cornerspin) earlier this year at VIR and he not only encouraged me to try it but to report back on my impressions. RogerThat, you have called out two members that have been posting positive content on this forum for quite a while. Crash (even though I hope he meets us VIR this year) provides a very valuable perspective, that of an enthusiast who hasn't been to the school. And Jason's posts are extremely well thought out and knowledgeable on the subject matter. I sincerely appreciate your protective instinct however I have to respectfully disagree with your assertion that either of them showed disrespect to the school. This is not meant as an attack on you but more of an assertion that I respect Crash and Jason's opinions and wanted them to know that. Now that you've joined the discussion I hope you hang around and continue to add to the forum. Best, Carey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonzilla Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 I haven't been to CSS yet, but had a similar experience with the Ride Like a Pro videos versus the live class. Alright, I've had it. I've been quietly lurking on this board a long time. I'm a CSS student, a big fan of the program. This is a GREAT message board, and the Superbike School provides it to us, diligently staffed with professional coaches (including Cobie, the chief coach!) and pros like Will and Steve, it's an amazing service. The board is friendly and very helpful and provided to us for FREE. Crash, you are on this board all the time. You have posted info on at least two competitors' books and at least two competitor schools on this board, even comparing one directly against CSS - despite having never attended a CSS school yourself. Recently someone who was coming overseas just to attend CSS asked for info on CSS tracks and Jasonzilla recommended they go to ANOTHER provider's event at a track the Superbike School doesn't use, and then in another post this week he reviewed a direct competitor's school, and even posted the price! What makes you guys think this is OK? Maybe I am just over protective of the school but I think it is unfair to Keith Code, and the staff who support this board, for you guys to post stuff about any organization or school or book that competes against the Superbike School, ESPECIALLY in reponse to a question about the school. Show a little respect, guys. Please. Easy now. I was telling whomever it was about a trackday, not a school. Auto Club Speedway is an incredible track nestled inside an amazing facility. He didn't specify that he was coming here to do a trackday, as I took it, so I gave him an option. And the Pridmore post has been removed. I've been told by an instructor, on this site, that he wanted to know how these schools stack up. Price is important to the rest of us. I didn't know it was a non-issue for you. I've been a fan of the school for some time now, and attribute a lot of what I know to this site and the school. But those of us who stick with it long enough progress, and some information we learn elsewhere is better for us, and more up to date. It's not about disrespect, and if we all limit ourselves to one system and don't learn or try new things, we'd just be a bunch of guys who agree about everything. It's OK, because it keeps us all open-minded about this stuff and encourages the schools to keep providing us with up to date information, and stay competitive, instead of allowing them to stagnate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilfuel Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Some of you need to put down your remote controlled motorcycle with the little man on it that you run around on your drive way and actually ride a motorcycle because frankly, you are embarrassing yourself. Interesting observation. You must be really pleased with yourself. It was more of a generalization than an observation and yes I thought it was whimsical in a sarcastic sort of way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogogusgus Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 How about replacing "vs" with "and?" Everytime I listen to the Audiobook, I get a new nugget, new insight. At this point Nickee The Dog and I can trade quotes verbatim. She has the 11 "Major Decision/Indecision" effects memorized -- taps her paw N times to tell me which one I'm doing -- E/R dogpark. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerThat Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 OK. You guys all make good points. You're right, it is healthy to have discussions and different viewpoints, and it does offer insight. I notice on some other boards (and on this board in the past) that posters just leave out the specific names when they discuss another organization. So the discussion could be about 'another book' (or school) instead of naming names. Sorry if I overreacted; it was striking me as free advertising for those other businesses and that seemed unfair to CSS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Well we've certainly amped things up a bit here, eh? I believe this Forum operates at it's best when we stay focused on cornering and all of its components not so much when we wonder away from that. We are extremely fortunate to have the high level of experience and caliber of riders, instructors, technicans and enthusiast from all over the world participating here so invariably there will be times we don't share the same perspective. The personal comments however don't add anything positive here [DAMHIK] even though I was using my remote control motorcycle with the little man on it when this came though. Hey Fossil, how did you know that? To the question of other venues I will defer to Cobie on this but I belive we need to recognize that we live on a two way street. That said RogerThat's idea to use generic names should work; I have used that technique myself in the past. Rainman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warregl Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 OK. You guys all make good points. You're right, it is healthy to have discussions and different viewpoints, and it does offer insight. I notice on some other boards (and on this board in the past) that posters just leave out the specific names when they discuss another organization. So the discussion could be about 'another book' (or school) instead of naming names. Sorry if I overreacted; it was striking me as free advertising for those other businesses and that seemed unfair to CSS. Honestly you made me stop and rethink my position. I hope we all feel we can discuss things openly here but then again I would never want to show disrespect to CSS, I am too thankful for what they have taught me. My apologies if I came off "preachie". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spgtech Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 For what it's worth, I was glad to see Jasons report on the Pridemore class, and am sorry that it has been removed. I have seen the classes advertised locally and wondered how they would compare. Since I have a fair amount of respect for Jason's thoughtful comments and observations, I found the feedback useful. Even though the Pridemore school had some components which resonated with Jason, most of the attributes I would see as neutral or negative. Not that it's a bad school, just that it doesn't click with my expectations or learning style. While I know I will continue to use CSS, I have no problem going to other schools as well. End result of reading Jasons review is that I'll probably skip the Star school. -Sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 End result of [Forum member's] review is that I'll probably skip the Star school. Sean; This is why that post was originally taken down; the Forum does not want to be a place that discourages participants from attending any other school or track venue. Rainman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilfuel Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 I am on double secret probation and limited to one sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spgtech Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Rainman: Fair enough, I can understand that. While the earlier poster seemed to take exception to promoting other schools, I can see why you might want to limit anything which would discourage attending other schools as well. While I think that there are more schools than I can ever possibly get to, and it's nice to get feedback to choose which ones to attend; there are many other forums where such comparisons would be less problematic. Thanks for the explanation. -Sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted December 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 WOW, the board is ROCKIN' this morning, fantastic discourse! Great points from all of you. I can see the benefits of discussion about other schools, but I can also see how the Superbike School might not want to host reviews or comments that could be seen as critical of other schools. It could generate some hostility. Sean G nailed it - there are other boards better suited for that type of review. Or, alternately, I like the compromise suggested earlier of just not identifying the other schools by name, this is a solution that seems to be a common and sensible one. Incidentally someone mentioned the school might need competition to keep from getting stagnant - little danger of that, Keith and Dylan are so driven in regards to research and making the school continuously world-class, they never rest on their laurels, the school is constantly being improved and it is one of the things that impresses me, day after day and year after year. Great comments about learning from the book versus coming to CSS in person - for me, for some skills when I read about them in the book, I tried them, with some success. But when I came to class I found out that the coaches could apply the skill about 10x more effectively than I had. For example, I thought I was turning it quick, until I saw a coach do it a WHOLE LOT quicker. It inspired me to try it at another level, and WOW, what a result. Same thing with hip-flick - I though I was doing it OK, until I saw Keith do it on track, right in front of me, showing me that I was too slow with it. I tried to do it like he did it, and OMG I turned the bike so fast I nearly fell off it. That lesson will stay with me forever. I also noticed that when I was following a coach, I rode faster, and that made some of the skills make more sense to me - for example quick turn suddenly get a lot more important when my entry speeds came up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilfuel Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 All kidding a side, I have been to CSS and several other schools and while they bring different things to the table, the basic tenants of riding are the same. Which class is best for you? I think since this is Keith Code's Cornering Forum the respectful and courteous thing to do is discuss riding skills and teachings with out bringing in other riding schools. For example, CSS teaches braking before corner entry, setting your speed before entering the corner. For a rider who is just learning riding skills this is the smart thing to do but I have a different perspective and can argue my point without bringing another school into it. We can have a good discussion while still being courteous(most of the time). I don't know why that doesn't seem fair? Just for the record, I have been to 12 Keith Code schools and I have been to other schools where I have fine tuned certain skills. The greatest impact on my riding has been this school, and these coaches. Should I copy and paste this paragraph on another schools forum? Do you think they would appreciate it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Should I copy and paste this paragraph on another schools forum? Do you think they would appreciate it? Fossil; Thanks for making this point with some clarity. Rainman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warregl Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 I also noticed that when I was following a coach, I rode faster, and that made some of the skills make more sense to me - for example quick turn suddenly get a lot more important when my entry speeds came up! This is an great point. I know that I have seen significant increases in my pace after getting a "tow" from a coach. I trust that the coach has been watching my riding and is not going to lead me in over my head, so to speak. For someone at my modest (read low) skill level this is hugely beneficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonzilla Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 I am on double secret probation and limited to one sentence. HAHAHA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilfuel Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 I also noticed that when I was following a coach, I rode faster, and that made some of the skills make more sense to me - for example quick turn suddenly get a lot more important when my entry speeds came up! This is an great point. I know that I have seen significant increases in my pace after getting a "tow" from a coach. I trust that the coach has been watching my riding and is not going to lead me in over my head, so to speak. For someone at my modest (read low) skill level this is hugely beneficial. Hey Buddy, This might be off track just a bit but Warregl what would it take for you to increase your speed if you were practicing on your own? What is your strategy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritzdacat Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 I got both the book and the DVD last winter, although it was cold out I tried all the techniques right after having read a chapter, helped me tremendously. I drive faster now and still safer, have to take it easy on public roads though, when you get lasered coming out of a corner with +170 kmh and it's unlikely that the cops will buy the explanation "well, you know, I was rolling on the gas for safety reasons, I didn't want the bike to become unstable by chopping the throttle " All these techniques "once the throttle is cracked open... " , quickflipping the bike, twostep , hookturn, ... you don't learn stuff like that in normal safety trainings... all you ever get is some (as Keith Code would say) "half cocked advice" ... I'm very grateful that someone compiled all that information....I know I know, you probably want to hear "well, you really have to go to SB-school to learn the stuff".... but I wanted that point made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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