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Cobie Fair

What Technique Does Css Not Train?

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Just watched the BMW-TV video, Eirik. Great stuff!

 

That's all covered in Level I--isn't it?

 

:rolleyes:

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Any sort of trail braking.

 

+1. I ahve asked about this, but the instructors seem to avoid the subject!

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to. It would be interesting to do a little tabulating, observe the riders that do lots of trail braking and look at their long term race statistics: wins, crashes would be 2 good ones.

 

I don't think you can attribute and entire race win to whether someone trail brakes or not! A better way to look at it would be how often the rider that doesn't trail brake loses a position on corner entry or how often trail braking gains position.

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Funny - I was going to offer up trail braking. But that appears to have been well addressed.

 

Personally I think that CSS through the 4 levels covers everything needed except for one thing it cant really cover: experience. After doing any of the levels or all of them you have to get out and just do it.

 

One thing I will mention - as you practice you will get faster. Be mindful of this because you'll go from being the guy that provides passing practice for the racers to suddenly having to get around other riders and making the racers passing practice more 'real'. Then one day some %^#@$%*&(&* noob on a Ninja 250 will be on track and you'll not really think about how big a delta there is between your speed and his. He'll go in to a corner ahead of you without you knowing he is there and then you'll wake up in the ER with a very cross wife looking down at you.

 

UPDATE

Actually there is one area that would be helpful but I'm not sure how it would work in to the program (level 5?) - setup.

I now have 2 bikes both have fully adjustable suspensions (848 on Ohlins, ZX6 on Penske and AK20s). The ZX6 is bottoming up front (zip tie on fork tube) and the back end feels like it is sliding around (it isnt but it feels like it is). The 848 feels fine but being a new bike I don't have a lot of experience with it and being nearly $20K I don't get as agressive as I will on the ZX6. So now I'm learning how to setup my suspension with some help. I'd happily pay for training though.

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... some %^#@$%*&(&* noob on a Ninja 250 will be on track ... He'll go in to a corner ahead of you without you knowing he is there and then you'll wake up in the ER with a very cross wife looking down at you ...

 

 

Tweek

I'm not sure I understand this. Is he ahead at corner entry?

Gus

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... some %^#@$%*&(&* noob on a Ninja 250 will be on track ... He'll go in to a corner ahead of you without you knowing he is there and then you'll wake up in the ER with a very cross wife looking down at you ...

 

 

Tweek

I'm not sure I understand this. Is he ahead at corner entry?

Gus

 

Depends - I was entering turn 1 when he was entering turn 3. I closed the gap and demonstrated what happens when a front tire touches a back tire (among other things, target fixate much?) between turn 3 and 4. I didnt seem him enter the turn so had no idea he was on the other side or what his speed was. Completely my fault and the point I'm trying to make - Get an idea of what the slowest pace on track is for the day and be on the look out. Usually I'll spend a few laps trailing the slowest rider to see what line they like and just how slow they are. Then during the day when I enter the track I try to get an idea as to where they are so I'll know ahead of time and not repeat this incident again. It seriously sucks.

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... some %^#@$%*&(&* noob on a Ninja 250 will be on track ... He'll go in to a corner ahead of you without you knowing he is there and then you'll wake up in the ER with a very cross wife looking down at you ...

 

 

Tweek

I'm not sure I understand this. Is he ahead at corner entry?

Gus

 

Depends - I was entering turn 1 when he was entering turn 3. I closed the gap and demonstrated what happens when a front tire touches a back tire (among other things, target fixate much?) between turn 3 and 4. I didnt seem him enter the turn so had no idea he was on the other side or what his speed was. Completely my fault and the point I'm trying to make - Get an idea of what the slowest pace on track is for the day and be on the look out. Usually I'll spend a few laps trailing the slowest rider to see what line they like and just how slow they are. Then during the day when I enter the track I try to get an idea as to where they are so I'll know ahead of time and not repeat this incident again. It seriously sucks.

 

Do you have an open pitlane policy over there then? We have the odd day like that here, but Novices are told to stay away. Generally though the format is 3 groups, novices, intermediates and the fast group, each getting 20 minutes of the hour. That way you don't tend to get such massive speed differentials and by the time you get into the fast group, your lines are good and even if you're getting blitzed by the racers sneaking in some practice, you'll be confident enough to deal with it.

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Depends - I was entering turn 1 when he was entering turn 3. I closed the gap and demonstrated what happens when a front tire touches a back tire (among other things, target fixate much?) between turn 3 and 4. I didnt seem him enter the turn so had no idea he was on the other side or what his speed was. Completely my fault and the point I'm trying to make - Get an idea of what the slowest pace on track is for the day and be on the look out. Usually I'll spend a few laps trailing the slowest rider to see what line they like and just how slow they are. Then during the day when I enter the track I try to get an idea as to where they are so I'll know ahead of time and not repeat this incident again. It seriously sucks.

 

Do you have an open pitlane policy over there then? We have the odd day like that here, but Novices are told to stay away. Generally though the format is 3 groups, novices, intermediates and the fast group, each getting 20 minutes of the hour. That way you don't tend to get such massive speed differentials and by the time you get into the fast group, your lines are good and even if you're getting blitzed by the racers sneaking in some practice, you'll be confident enough to deal with it.

 

It was a member day so the groups are cars, bikes and karts. We don't usually have a problem with cars sneaking in it the bike group - kinda obvious they don't belong. As I said - I screwed up. The group I ride with knows me and I know them and we're all pretty comfortable riding around each other. Had I been thinking using the pitlane would have been a good strategy to locate the slow rider in order to keep him on the otherside of the track.

 

Instead of hijacking this thread further, perhaps starting a new thread would be a better idea.

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It would really be nice to learn how to get the knee down. I recall on the last few turns of Level Three I felt a lowed screaching noise that scared the bejuses out of me and made me lift the bike. I then realized that was my puck. I did it again and it felt awsome. If this technique could be tought in a controlled way it would be great. How about Level 4 2012 at Barber :D

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Wheelies!

 

+1 Wheelies should be tought because this is learned by most the dangerouse way... trial and error. no kidding.

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It would really be nice to learn how to get the knee down ... I felt a lowed screaching noise

Rique

What kind of lean angle were you running?

Riding a school bike?

Ago

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Backing it in...as Dylan pointed out, can have consequences.

 

Really, how many have done this and had more problems that what it was worth? There are many examples of guys that back it in, and the guy right in front, or right behind, was matching him in entry pace and line, no problem. Cool to look at, maybe harder to pass when a guy is backing it in, but how critical is this skill, now much of a fundamental aid in putting in a good lap. Someone told me a few years ago that Rossi suggested to Nicky when they were teammates at Honda, that he not do it. We know guys that have lap records and don't back it in, ever.

 

Similar question on excessive trail braking. How many crashes does one see on the brakes going into the turns by new, even experienced racers? For sure one needs to be able to trail the brakes into a turn, for the turns that it applies to. It would be interesting to do a little tabulating, observe the riders that do lots of trail braking and look at their long term race statistics: wins, crashes would be 2 good ones.

 

CF

 

Re: "Backing it in"

I agree and would add this:

'Backing it in' Is for low grip riding. I get the back stepping out on the way into hairpin turns on my dirtbike because it is definitely quicker and the corner is very slow. This technique is taken to extremes in Enduro on tight turns to get the bike swung around on slow corners - arriving at the corner hard on the front brake weight high up, forwards and a little to the inside and leg out ready - apply back brake as you turn in then pull in the clutch and lock the rear up as you commit to the turn - as the bike swings in let the clutch out and continue the slide around on the power.

I'm sure this is a familiar technique to lots of us but it doesn't translate to the tarmac race circuit (unless you are Gary McCoy) as the speed is much higher and the turns less tight when measured against bike length. You can see that many riders who have spent a lot of time off road like or at the very least don't mind 'backing it in' but there is no advantage to be had as it does very little to get the bike turned AND you can't be as hard on the front brake which costs you time against any potential saving.

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I think what I would like to be taught is overtaking techniques.

I often get stuck behind riders who are lapping slower than me and unless I arrive and overtake immediately I can really struggle to get by them.

This problem is magnified for me because I carry a lot of mid corner speed and generate a good corner exit but my bike isn't very quick so if you are balked by, say an S1000RR mid corner and unable to use your drive he just pulls the trigger and disappears down the straight until you catch him at the next bend sequence.

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<< able to trail the brakes into a turn, for the turns that it applies to.  It would be interesting to do a little tabulating, observe the riders that do lots of trail braking and look at their long term race statistics: wins, crashes would be 2 good ones.  >>

 

Reckon there's any way the on-board diagx could indicate / capture trail-braking?

Ago

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It would really be nice to learn how to get the knee down ... I felt a lowed screaching noise

Rique

What kind of lean angle were you running?

Riding a school bike?

Ago

 

At the time my puck hit pretty steep :o . Pardon me but when you refer to a "School Bike" you need to be aware that its a BMW S1000RR. Current king of superbikes by a long margin.

You make it sound like a clunker ;)

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Overtaking, good call. I struggle with this sometimes on track days because I'm trying to be nice to people. You can see though that some people enter far too tight, like a defensive line but not a very good one, thinking they're Stoner or something, and other non-ideal approaches. I usually pass on the exit or straight (try that with 80bhp) as I haven't really figured out a clean braking pass. You can imagine my sort of approach needs a few goes to work against some bikes...

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JR,

 

You might not know, but we actually have an exercise that can help with overtaking...we only do this with our Level 4 students, and then you have to trust the guy to a decent degree...something to bring up with the Level 4 Consultant/Liaison if you are interested.

 

Best,

Cobie

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