David in Devon Posted March 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 What Mugget said. And taking it further, i've trained my brain to do lots of things. So I can train it to lean the bike further, right? Then it consider it done. Well, in the process of being done... ktk_ace - your braking may be wholly un-necessary. What's the point? Do you brake to slow down, to move the mass of the bike, for stability or out of habit? I would take a guess that you brake out of habit but don't really know why or what effect it has on the bike. In England we call it 'teddy bear' braking. It's just a habit and we just do it. So can I ask you, why do you brake just before you go in? And to your answer, are you sure??? <_< Justin. There is a riding style that blats down the straights as fast as one can and then brakes as the corner is coming up harder than necessary. Usually braking quite hard whilst changing down the gears because we don't know what speed we're doing but we know it's too fast because we don't know what the corner looks like so it's obviously too fast. It's an SR. The body usually comes up, the arms lock and the bars take the weight. Then the body might shift and now we've lost all that momentum. then we sort of coast around it for a bit with a closed throttle which is out of harmony with the road speed and the engine speed whilst we get into the corner. When we see the corner opening up we get heavy on the throttle and try to shoot out of the bend. The throttle can come in with a 'clunk' which comes off the chain engaging. That, to me, is charging into the corner but life is just a matter of degree. Imagine doing it on a horse with a lance in your hands. charging. Watch from 4.42 onwards (when the music stops) and turn up the volume. Nice through the corner and then at about 5.00 he enters the pit lane straight. I would say that he's charging into the next turn and coasting for way to long at the end of the straight and if you listen to the throttle... So is he charging? I happen to know this guy and he is actually very quick on his prepped R1 - faster than me, that's for sure. I've been back to the start of this thread because i've realised that behaviour, that riding style, was what I was doing, but maybe without the high entry speeds, the locked arms etc. but I was doing the brakes and the throttle and the changing gears and the odd, unpredictable road speeds. I used to, but i've been working on it. The difference - as far as I can see - is where the throttle is. If it's engaged and matched to what's going on then it's a good thing. If it's closed and/or out of balance, then that's a bad thing. So what would it be like if instead of braking without a reason and having to find where the throttle should be whilst you're in the corner, you get all that sorted out beforehand? That way you can be accelerating as soon as you've turned! I wonder if that would work... Keep well, y'all David PS - These are the musings of a madman. I don't consider myself to be a good rider as I know I can be better. I've done a few courses, read a few books... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted March 30, 2012 Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 What Mugget said. And taking it further, i've trained my brain to do lots of things. So I can train it to lean the bike further, right? Then it consider it done. Well, in the process of being done... ktk_ace - your braking may be wholly un-necessary. What's the point? Do you brake to slow down, to move the mass of the bike, for stability or out of habit? I would take a guess that you brake out of habit but don't really know why or what effect it has on the bike. In England we call it 'teddy bear' braking. It's just a habit and we just do it. So can I ask you, why do you brake just before you go in? And to your answer, are you sure??? Justin. There is a riding style that blats down the straights as fast as one can and then brakes as the corner is coming up harder than necessary. Usually braking quite hard whilst changing down the gears because we don't know what speed we're doing but we know it's too fast because we don't know what the corner looks like so it's obviously too fast. It's an SR. The body usually comes up, the arms lock and the bars take the weight. Then the body might shift and now we've lost all that momentum. then we sort of coast around it for a bit with a closed throttle which is out of harmony with the road speed and the engine speed whilst we get into the corner. When we see the corner opening up we get heavy on the throttle and try to shoot out of the bend. The throttle can come in with a 'clunk' which comes off the chain engaging. That, to me, is charging into the corner but life is just a matter of degree. Imagine doing it on a horse with a lance in your hands. charging. Watch from 4.42 onwards (when the music stops) and turn up the volume. Nice through the corner and then at about 5.00 he enters the pit lane straight. I would say that he's charging into the next turn and coasting for way to long at the end of the straight and if you listen to the throttle... So is he charging? I happen to know this guy and he is actually very quick on his prepped R1 - faster than me, that's for sure. I've been back to the start of this thread because i've realised that behaviour, that riding style, was what I was doing, but maybe without the high entry speeds, the locked arms etc. but I was doing the brakes and the throttle and the changing gears and the odd, unpredictable road speeds. I used to, but i've been working on it. The difference - as far as I can see - is where the throttle is. If it's engaged and matched to what's going on then it's a good thing. If it's closed and/or out of balance, then that's a bad thing. So what would it be like if instead of braking without a reason and having to find where the throttle should be whilst you're in the corner, you get all that sorted out beforehand? That way you can be accelerating as soon as you've turned! I wonder if that would work... Keep well, y'all David PS - These are the musings of a madman. I don't consider myself to be a good rider as I know I can be better. I've done a few courses, read a few books... http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/k1200r-PAPAGO/article?mid=6877 I read this up and did some sampling myself too , works for my riding style and bike setup ( just scroll down for the weight transfer thingy ) I go in way hotter than alot of folks in my woods , hence the tendency to train and maximize my braking . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted March 30, 2012 Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 I have lost grip so many times I cannot count them, but until last year I could save them either as riding out the slides or, in more severe cases when the wheels were lifted off the ground from hitting bumps when already scraping hard parts, by kick the bike up on its wheels again with a quick and firm dab of a leg. This one, however, was not possible for me to save - no warning, not running out of clearance. Good point about the blind faith stuff - you may very well be right in that fear struck midway through the corner and induced panic. Food for tought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogogusgus Posted March 30, 2012 Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 i was surprised to see this lowsiding thread contain as much talk of braking as it does nonetheless, all this talk of braking, trailbraking, charging has me fairly baffled ... clearly you guys have done far more experimenting than I have ... and have gotten past certain barriers so now i'm trying to fit it all into my Twist homework... how do we integrate / reconcile this thread with Twist2? (see the attached extracts from T2) Ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David in Devon Posted March 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 It would appear that there are two things going on here and I think they're related. The fear of lowsiding is when I am mid corner (entry, the middle bit and the exit) and one of two things can happen. Firstly, I think i'm too fast so I adjust my speed by either closing the throttle or braking. This happens on the run into the corner and the turning bit and you'll feel the after effects through the middle but the exit is cool because you can wind it on and get out of there. The second scenario is where you get it right but because you're doing the same thing - going 'round a corner - there is a fear of leaning it any further than about 20 degrees. Even if you get everything right, you've still got comfort zones, hard wired beliefs and SR's to deal with. So i've figured out that if you get it right then the line, the speed and the lean angle are right. But if you've got one part wrong or start changing things mid corner then it all goes wrong. I drove home in the wife's car tonight - manual shift - and tried to do it all without closing the throttle and without using the brakes. what a difference! Going into a roundabout is so much smoother. Probably because in a car, the effects are less noticeable so you can get away with it. So my question to me is do you want to go in fast and panicky or slower and smoother, with more lean and come out faster? It's a sorta 'one or the other' kind of thing. Oh! I should make this all past tense now... 'Cos i'm ace. Finally, just a thought, where's one of the staff when you need them? C'mon Keith, we're writing a book for you here! Keep well David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 i was surprised to see this lowsiding thread contain as much talk of braking as it does nonetheless, all this talk of braking, trailbraking, charging has me fairly baffled ... clearly you guys have done far more experimenting than I have ... and have gotten past certain barriers so now i'm trying to fit it all into my Twist homework... how do we integrate / reconcile this thread with Twist2? (see the attached extracts from T2) Ago erm just a few opinions... 1) I do all my back braking on the straights (in tandemwith front braking ) , I had not use the back brake in a turn since 2010. 2) I dont do track days due to financial + distance constrains 3) my rear brake lever is where the clutch is on most big bikes , giving me much higher sensitivity and control while using it 4)after 6000miles, my back brake pads are only 15-20% spent () 5)I do know the point where the back locks up in varing conditions and temperatures 6) I dont have state of the art USD cartridge/big piston fork front suspension, im still in the old damper rod camp with 12" wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David in Devon Posted March 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Hey ktk_ace Nice blogsite! Can't read a word of it but the pictures seem to sum everything up. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David in Devon Posted March 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Learnt something else today. Mugget started this one. So you're going into a corner and you get your body position sorted. You do all the other stuff too but when you need to, you press on the bars further and the bike leans a bit more. But your head stays in the same position which means you're now all crossed up! How to cure it - keep the inside elbow in tight. And point with your head. It's very odd though how my head doesn't want to move! Bike does, body does, head is scared of going any further. Anyway, i'm off on holiday so i'll see you all when I get back from Spain! Brum Brum!! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugget Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Watch from 4.42 onwards (when the music stops) and turn up the volume. Nice through the corner and then at about 5.00 he enters the pit lane straight. I would say that he's charging into the next turn and coasting for way to long at the end of the straight and if you listen to the throttle... So is he charging? I happen to know this guy and he is actually very quick on his prepped R1 - faster than me, that's for sure. I've been back to the start of this thread because i've realised that behaviour, that riding style, was what I was doing, but maybe without the high entry speeds, the locked arms etc. but I was doing the brakes and the throttle and the changing gears and the odd, unpredictable road speeds. I used to, but i've been working on it. The difference - as far as I can see - is where the throttle is. If it's engaged and matched to what's going on then it's a good thing. If it's closed and/or out of balance, then that's a bad thing. Hey David, interesting comments about the 'coasting' and closed throttle being a bad thing... I couldn't hear any sound in that video after the music finished, so I'm not quite sure what you meant about the coasting in that particular instance... so I will just say that you're sort of on the right track with that. If you immediately pick up the throttle and carry it / accelerate through the corner your line will be pretty much set. For the road, this can be a good thing - mainly because that way of riding is very simple - once you set your speed, turned, and picked up the throttle you know where you're going, you can visualise your path through the corner and you're not likely to deviate from it - easy. However, if we're talking about riding on the track, that is actually a very slow way around. Not to mention making double apex corners very awkward. I used to always ride into a corner carrying throttle, so this kind of blew my mind... you do not need to carry throttle into a corner. If I'm riding on track, now my approach is almost the same for every single corner (double apex, single apex, triple apex... whatever): approach the braking marker, use the brakes to set my speed*, still zero throttle input, make the steering input, still zero throttle input if needed to reach the apex, then pick up the throttle when I know I'm definitely going to hit my apex, then think about picking up the bike and driving out. This method allows a much, much faster entry speed compared to holding a constant throttle through the entire turn. But it's also initially much more difficult because there's alot more going on. Rather than taking a set line through the turn at a constant speed, as you are turning in you will still be losing speed (if you're ever coming into a corner too hot, it's good to remember that the very act of turning your bike will scrub off speed), in addition to this constant speed change, your line will also be tightening towards the apex - so you have to process speed and direction changes as you're entering the turn, possibly right up until the apex. This changing line (turn radius change) is exactly what makes it possible to hit both your points on a double apex corner. Remember that holding a constant throttle limits you to one line, you're locked into a constant turn radius, and that simply won't allow you to hit your points in a double apex turn. I think the reason myself and many others feel more confident carrying a constant throttle from turn-in is because of the simple fact that it's easy, it doesn't take anywhere near as much attention as the 'coasting in' method. But on the track - a person who 'coasts' into a corner carrying more speed will practically breeze by someone who turns and immediately picks up the throttle. Coasting in also allows for a much, much later turn in point - so much so that I think this is something you really need to practice in the open space of a track. I also used to think that I'd be at risk of 'tucking the front' if I was entering a corner without maintenance throttle. That's another belief that is simply not true. (Don't know where I picked that up from, but maybe there are others who think the same??) If you think about trail braking, you can bet they are using zero throttle, not only that, but also applying the brake! If it was true that we needed to apply throttle as soon as we turned in, trail braking wouldn't be possible. Using the 'coasting in' method is actually much safer than trail braking because you're not using the front brake, you can't lock the front wheel. (You could still slide the front if you're really pushing on, but even a brief slide is much more favourable than locking a wheel while you're leaned right over.) * - An interesting side point: I used to think when approaching a turn "I need to get on the brakes and get stopped for this turn". I'm sure there's plenty of others who think the same way... but I think this is not very helpful, and could lead to 'over braking' for the turn. In reality no one stops for a turn. I started to think more along the lines of setting my speed for the turn - it's a slightly different mental outlook on the use of brakes, and I think it's definitely helped me. Charging (rushing) a corner I have always thought that this simply means entering a corner faster than you're prepared for. I don't think there's any physical signs that you'd be able to see when a rider charges a turn (aside from obvious SR's), sometimes a rider could charge the turn, their entry speed is higher than they can process and they don't have a plan for it - but somehow make it through. That's where all your reference points, your plan for a corner, becomes very important. Whenever I've seen charging mentioned it was always because it's a bad thing, not any sort of technique..? justin giron - on the subject of braking, I'm not quite sure what exactly you're asking... but what is stated there in Twist 2 is right on the money. On the track especially I just don't touch the rear brake (or I try not to at least). I have adopted a little bit from Twist as my personal motto - "Yes, using both brakes helps you to stop faster, but on a track you don't stop until you're back in pit lane." Forgetting about the rear brake frees up alot of attention, to me that attention is more valuable than an extra ~5% (maybe less) stopping power. On the road I sometimes drag the rear brake into corners to make very minor adjustment to speed, but I couldn't recommend it. That type of braking is more of a result of a poorly executed turn. David mentioned 'teddy bear' braking, that's pretty much what I'd call it. People just like to be 'comforted' knowing that they are using a little bit of brake and they imagine that it gives them more control. Reality is that for all those times I've dragged rear brake into a turn, I could have just concentrated on turning and done absolutely fine. In a panic situation it could end real bad, someone thinks they're coming in too hot, but they're already at the turn so they drag some brake while they're turning in, increasing lean angle with application of brake is not a good mix... But low traction situations are the exception - in the wet, gravel/sand/dirt on the road. I would use some rear brake to keep a more even weight balance front/rear. I'm also a big believer in using back brake only for slow speed manoeuvring, u-turns are a great example, as well as pulling out into traffic on a hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugget Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Well that was turning into something a bit long-winded. I just needed a bit of space, time for a new post - I was going to get lost in that previous one. Now, back to what David asked - "So my question to me is do you want to go in fast and panicky or slower and smoother, with more lean and come out faster? It's a sorta 'one or the other' kind of thing." I just wanted to mention above about 'coasting' so you know that you do have options when you're entering a turn. (Holding the throttle into the turn is easier - most times it could be the best plan for the street. But if you're coming into a corner too fast to maintain throttle, it's also an option to just use zero throttle and concentrate on turning in.) So 'fast and panicky' or 'slow and steady' - which is better? Let's look at each of those sides of your question. First of all - the "panic" aspect should not come into it at all. Panic, bad. Me not like panic. What we want is to have a good plan for the turn, whether that is to come in faster, or slower. When you say "go in fast" I would think of that as coasting into a corner with zero throttle, fast entry speed and later turn-in point. When you say "slower and smoother" I would think of that as a slower entry speed, such that you could carry throttle through the entire turn. But the "with more lean and come out faster" part is the really interesting bit. What method do you think would allow for a faster exit? Does more lean mid-corner equal a faster exit speed? Think about that for a bit... Now consider that the faster you turn in (a faster rate of turn, the "quick flick"), the less time you will spend leant over. Next - who will be able to use full throttle sooner - someone who uses a slow turn rate, and spends more time leant over, OR someone who uses a fast turn rate and spends less time leant over? The longer you're leant over in a turn, the longer you need to wait until you can use full throttle. So whether you use a slow entry speed or a fast entry speed - your turn rate will have the most effect on how soon you can get to full throttle, and how fast you can exit the turn. By nature a late turn point is what's required if you want to use the quick flick (fast turn rate). If you try that using the "slow entry" turn point, you will end up off the inside of the track! Or running off the inside of a corner on the road! Does that make sense? To answer the last part of your question - is it a "one or the other" sort of thing? Definitely not. The important thing is to realise that you do have the option to quick flick, the option to use zero throttle into a corner, the option to use throttle through the entire turn. It's really all up to you to decide what's safest for your circumstances and for what you want to achieve. I hope that helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David in Devon Posted April 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2012 Well Mugget, I've just got back from Spain. 1300 miles in 8 days of riding on some really twisty stuff. Up hill and down and i've left a fair bit of rubber on their tarmac. The suspension on my Triumph Sprint now needs to be looked at because a new weak spot has developed. To the edge of the tyre (and beyond?), 2 up with a loaded top box and a tank bag. Such fun but it does show up the inadequacies of suspension. I'll be cleaning my bike tomorrow. I take onboard what you say about coasting but it's a technique that ain't for me. I used to do (it happened between the braking and the accelerating) it but find the throttle snatches when you try to balance from zero to what the engine is at. Bike no like, me no like - bad medicine. And doing it inside the corner is not my idea of fun either because there's too much going on that drags my attention away from where it should be. I am far happier having the throttle where it should be before the turn and then I can smoothly bring it on through the corner. We played 'no brakes' for a couple of hundred miles so I put a lot of effort/thought into my sense of speed, positioning, line and acceleration. And i've figured out the Spanish corners too - most are double and triple apex's when I was treating them like singles! When you try to take a corner with one line, it isn't going to work. So when I go in on the throttle and do one corner, throttle off a bit and take the next one, throttle off a bit and then the next one, it works fine. So good in fact, that when you check your mirrors, you wonder why you're on your own. Never mind, pull over and wait for them to catch up. I felt relaxed, it was quick and I spent a lot of time waiting for the others. My experience of the road was very different to theirs - not one scary moment for me and loads for everybody else. Who, I hasten to add, were braking deep and then trying to blast themselves out of the corner. Too erratic, tiring and their bikes drank more juice. Sometimes, it hurts when you're this good. There should be a halo there, somewhere... Anyway, the roads look like . Their riding style needs a bit of work but the roads are like this all over northern Spain. If you ever get the chance, go. Back to the other video, there is sound but you've got to turn your speakers up. Final point. The fear of lowsiding comes from using the wrong technique. The fear is because you very quickly reach the edge of your comfort zone, you know what's going to happen if you push it but you don't know where the limit really is and you don't know what's going to take you there. So you stop where you are and you're scared that it's going to lowside if you go any further. Here's my rear tyre, two up with luggage, waiting for the ferry home. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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