faffi Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 On an unfamiliar road, being able to trail brake have its advantages. Most corners are not nearly as tight as they appear, meaning you can usually make a quick-turn and go around without touching the brakes. But sometimes, the corner is tighter and you need to brake in order to keep on the road. If you decide to always get down to a safe speed before turning, you will slow down too much for a lot of corners. Sure, you can get it back on the throttle- but only by breaking the speed limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugget Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 OK, got it, good. This does bring up some interesting questions, though - when would you want to trail brake, and when wouldn't you? Let's get out of the world of pro racers on gazillion dollar bikes and talk about track day or club level racing on "normal" sportbikes. How do you decide, for each turn, whether to use trail braking, or not? It's a interesting discussion and I'd like to hear your opinions as you think it through. So... What are the advantages of trail braking to the apex vs getting most of your braking done when vertical? What types of turns or situations lend themselves more to trail braking, and what types of turns or situations favor releasing or being off the brakes at your turnpoint, to maximize your quickturn? When would I want to trial brake...? Almost never, since it just wouldn't be very effective if I'm doing it. Trail braking is not something that I've tried to work on, at the moment my big focus is on improving my quick turn. But whenever I have trail braked (on the street or track) it's just been instinctive, and I'd say not very hard braking either (by trail braking standards). But that's a tricky topic as well - because how can I really judge which turns could benefit from trail braking if I'm judging them based on my own limited trail braking ability? Or maybe I'm just overthinking things... I suppose the answer is to develop both my quick turn and trail braking abilities to a high level, then I really will be better able to judge particular situations that would benefit from either technique. At the moment my thought process & experience has lead me to use trail braking regularly only on one particular corner at a track I ride. It's over a fairly long left hand crest which tightens into something like a narrow single lane before a little right hand turn. Because it's out of a slow-ish corner I'm accelerating while turning left up over the crest until I spot the narrowing section. Then because the track is still turning left there isn't really any option to do heavy braking with the bike vertical, if I need to slow down, I need to do it while turning. So I guess that's a really specific example of where you're forced to either trail brake, turn in & try your luck, or chicken out and run on. As for how I decide when to use quick turn or trail braking - if I can brake hard with the bike vertical, that pretty much guarantees I'm going to quick turn that corner. At least on the track I regularly ride, it's only that one long left hander where I need to slow down while the bike is leaning. But generally speaking, the advantage for me of getting most braking done while vertical is that it's safer. (I still have a crash-free record on-track, just call me Captain Safety!) I know that I can brake hard when the bike is vertical, even if I don't get the speed exactly right it's close enough that I still just perform the quick turn, then stay off the throttle a little bit if I need to tighten the line or slow down while cornering. Knowing how much the bike will slow down simple from the act of cornering is a big safety net for me in pushing my turn points later or trying a faster entry speed. If I was braking so late that I had to hold the brake all the way to the apex, I'd probably be stressing out big time! Actually that brings up another point - how to best learn/improve trail braking ability? I guess there isn't any kind of safety net or backup technique that you can use? I mean if you mess up your trail braking by locking the front wheel, chances are you're crashing. So it seems like you've just gotta take the risk, and add brake pressure very very gradually and look for any signs that you're putting too much load on the tyre - things like the tyre shuddering, skipping, or the bike just generally starting to tie itself in knots and act upset? Maybe I could benefit from trail braking just to edge inside slower riders... thinking about that now, passing is not my strong point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Mugget, I'm with you on most of what you said above! I don't particularly enjoy trail-braking, it takes a lot of my attention because it is a little dicey; and if your front tire starts to get worn and a little slick it gets REALLY tricky to keep it upright, and habitual trail braking will wear that front tire out a lot faster. (I tried it for a while, set up my bike to handle better with trail braking, and I was trail braking in lots of places - but ultimately went back to setting it up for super-fast quick turns and now I rely much more on THAT skill.) I much prefer doing most of my braking while upright, and I only trail brake in a few turns at certain tracks, much like you described above - it just makes sense, in certain places. As a specific example, I was discussing this with my husband (who also races) and something interested came up. At Streets of Willow there is a long banked turn, Turn 8. I mentioned to him that I trail brake into Turn 8 when we run it backwards, because it is a decreasing radius turn in that direction. But he was surprised to hear that I DON'T trail brake into it going the other (normal, CW) direction. Discussing it more, it turns out that he drives hard (but very briefly) between Turn 7 and Turn 8, and then trail brakes into 8. In contrast, I don't drive as hard, and use little or no brakes into 8, and quick turn it. The result? He can pass me BETWEEN 7 and 8, get on my inside and trail brake, but I can enter turn 8 on his outside with a MUCH higher entry speed and smoke him mid-turn. It's an interesting trade off - but there is a long straight after turn 8 so I think being able to pass in 8 is much more important than being able to pass in 7. The bad news? Now he knows my secret, I might have given up my advantage on that track. PS - you mentioned maybe using trail braking to pass slower riders on the inside, entering a turn - that certainly can be done but be aware that most track day providers aren't too keen on that (except in the Race group). It can be dangerous in that it can scare the slower rider, or the trail-braking rider can come in too hot and run wide, potentially running the slower rider off the track in the process. Or, worst, case, the trail-braking rider can lose the front, and slide across the track from the inside to the outside, crossing the path of the passed rider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 OK, got it, good. This does bring up some interesting questions, though - when would you want to trail brake, and when wouldn't you? Let's get out of the world of pro racers on gazillion dollar bikes and talk about track day or club level racing on "normal" sportbikes. How do you decide, for each turn, whether to use trail braking, or not? It's a interesting discussion and I'd like to hear your opinions as you think it through. So... What are the advantages of trail braking to the apex vs getting most of your braking done when vertical? What types of turns or situations lend themselves more to trail braking, and what types of turns or situations favor releasing or being off the brakes at your turnpoint, to maximize your quickturn? With trail braking, you can typically get on the brakes later allowing you to carry more speed deeper into the turn, but can't get on them as hard so the braking distance is increased. The turn rate is slower because the front tire is loaded and can't handle as quick a turn. Resulting in more time at lean angle or needing a greater lean angle. Can't get back on the gas till the apex vs as soon as the turning action is complete. The bike is less stable in a turn with the balance forward than when it is 60/40 to the rear. Bumps in the early part of a turn can get very scary when going over them leaned over and on the brakes with so much weight on the front tire; quick turn and get back on the gas makes it handle over rough spots (turn 10 at Streets is a good example). Some turns are so short to the apex getting back on the gas is not practical (first part of Turn 7 chicane at Fontana is a possible example) Trail braking is good for: Passing going INTO a turn - great for passing a slower rider but a faster rider can pass you back on the exit. Passing going in, on the brakes, makes you slower mid-turn and/or makes you run wide so you are vulnerable to be passed right back. Significant danger of "overcooking" the turn and running wide or losing the front. Short turns with slow exits, especially if there is a fast straight before the turn (fast in slow out) Good for light braking in high speed turns Decreasing radius turns, where your "real" turn point is very late in the turn - use trail braking to keep slowing down through the first apex to the "real" turn point, then quick turn and drive out. Quick turn is good for: Turns that don't require any braking Turns with fast exits Turns before a straight Chicanes Fastest possible overall pace through ANY turn except decreasing radius turns Conclusion: Trail braking is most useful for passing a slower rider on turn entry, or for decreasing radius turns that have a fast entry, or any turn (or any situation) where ENTRY speed is more important than EXIT speed. Great post, well thought-out and informative! Thanks for taking the time to write this. I suppose "thinking it through" like this may have contributed to RogerThat's two WERA championships last year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 This is a bit like Roberts Sr. vs Sheene, where the former couldn't understand why the latter loaded the front so much instead of getting out on the throttle. Sheene, according to Roberts, hadn't even thought about how he rode. Much like me Only I'm not fast, but I still find it more comforting loading the front than the rear. Although I'm learning fast to get on the throttle sooner and sooner Later, Spencer came and slid the front going in and the rear going out and the world never became the same, I'm led to believe. Current world level racers slide both wheels consistently these days. One AMA racer recently described the feeling as riding on marbles, they really are that close to disaster constantly, apparently. Not for me!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 so... quick turn = better for conservating tires? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 so... quick turn = better for conservating tires? I'm not sure if that is a fact, it is just what I personally experienced on my own bike. It makes logical sense to me that adding more braking-while-leaned-over would increase wear on the sides of your front tire. Doing most braking while upright might increase wear on the middle, but wearing out the middle has never been a problem for me - but maybe a commuter rider would feel differently! I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this! Should we post up a question in the tire forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 I can't say if it was learning to steer quicker that did it , but post CSS my average commuting mileage before the white line shows up in the center of my back tire has improved to the tune of at least a extra 1,000 miles a tire, it might take a decade to do it , but the schools would pay for themselves eventually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 so... quick turn = better for conservating tires? I'm not sure if that is a fact, it is just what I personally experienced on my own bike. It makes logical sense to me that adding more braking-while-leaned-over would increase wear on the sides of your front tire. Doing most braking while upright might increase wear on the middle, but wearing out the middle has never been a problem for me - but maybe a commuter rider would feel differently! I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this! Should we post up a question in the tire forum? It'll make a nice discussion imho ^^ PS. I use a soft option supersport tire front and the trial braking i used to do eats up the sides too... Braking nowadays, i combine front and rear so in theory , it should take some energy off the front too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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