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Ten track days on one set of tires sounds like a lot.

I am with Hottie on this. My first low side was on Day 8 of my first set of full on race tires. The sliding I was experiencing on the right side made me falsly think I was finally learning how to control a slide, the slide I experienced on the left side was something I totally missed as the bike was half way across the track before I even knew I was down...YRMV.

 

Rain

 

 

Okay, good advice - I'll ask about this. Keep in mind though that these are really just a racey street compound with no sipes, on a track-oriented carcass, not a true race slick. So, in theory, they shouldn't be gassing out due to heat cycles. They are definiftely not "full on race tires". But then again this compund used on the street doesn't likely ever get as hot as what happens on the track, so maybe my logic there is flawed.

 

I take seriously your suggestion that maybe I am fooling myself thinking that my skills are improving so much that I am now approaching the limits of the tires - it could be as you say that the tires are deteriorating so much that their performance is simply backing up towards my skill level ;) . I'll be careful and smart about this.

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On the subject of those slides that you experienced... from what you've said I would suggest that you're closer to the mark when you say that you were riding on a less grippy, dirtier part of the track when the tyres slid. It seems to me like the only things that grippier/higher spec tyres provide is the ability to carry higher corner speed, and generally provide more grip at higher lean angles (such as being able to take more power before sliding when opening the throttle at high/moderate lean angle. Probably better trail braking ability, but I haven't tested that!). Even if you were on a very street biased set of tyres, you would still be able to turn as fast as you possibly could, and if it was enough to overpower the tyres it would be the rear that slides first. So I'm thinking that a slide in any situation other than that is caused by something that can be corrected or adjusted, not that it's a sign of needed to upgrade your tyres. Does that make sense?

 

But that leads onto an interesting question - when do you know that it is time to upgrade your tyres??

 

 

Thanks so much for this - I really appreciate the input from you folks. It's so nice to have a place to intelligently debrief after a track day and get some smart, constructive input.

 

Probably you're right about being on a less grippy surface when I slid both ends. I don't think I was cornering any harder than I was at many other points during the day. As for trail braking, I seem to do a lot of that kind of naturally - I just catch myself doing it, especially into slower corners. On the corner I have been talking about, before I reduced the front pressure I was pretty squirmy in there a few times, but once I dropped the pressure it was more solid on the brakes.

 

I don't have a good answer to "when do you know it's time to upgrade your tires". No one breaks any lap records without NTECs (or similar) and tire warmers, so it seems like there is a level of corner speed (and acceleration out of corners) where that kind of rubber is needed. Currently I am not hard enough / early enough on the throttle to induce rear end slides, so maybe when I get to that point I need stickier shoes?

 

Wow, it's been three days since I was on track and I am still kinda wired....

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I take seriously your suggestion that maybe I am fooling myself thinking that my skills are improving so much that I am now approaching the limits of the tires - it could be as you say that the tires are deteriorating so much that their performance is simply backing up towards my skill level ;) . I'll be careful and smart about this.

 

I don't think that using the idea of "approaching the limits of your tires" is going to be a good measure of skill improvement. For one thing, better riding technique will greatly improve the way you USE your tires (better balance of loading front/rear, less abruptness in changes in load, better ability to feel tire feedback, etc.) and will improve the way your suspension works in keeping your tires in connection with the asphalt. So hypothetically as your skills improve, you will be able to optimize the tires better and therefore slide LESS. But of course you will probably also go faster which will load the tires more. So, it's hard to measure by that. Also there are tons of variables with tires and grip on any given day - tire pressure, tire temperature, ambient temp, tire compound, road surface, suspension setup, etc., and many of those things change day to day or even lap to lap. There seem to be too many variables to set a standard to use as a measure of improvement.

 

Additionally, you could possibly move up to a more race-oriented tire (that is expected to have more grip), but end up sliding it MORE, if it does not suit your riding style. The first set of race tires I ever tried scared me half to death - I wasn't using warmers and I couldn't get them warmed up, so they felt stiff and VERY slippery, I rode slower but slid around a LOT, it felt awful. I hated them and went back to a street/race type tire. About a year later, when I had my suspension set up better, was riding a lot faster, and was using warmers AND it was warmer outside, those same race tires felt great and had tons of grip; the first time I tried them, I just wasn't ready for them so they didn't suit my riding style or the conditions but later on they were GREAT.

 

Laptimes seem to be the most reliable way of seeing skill improvements - if you can run a faster laptime and feel MORE comfortable and in control while doing it, THAT is a big win. Or you can compare how your riding changes in relation to other riders - i.e., passing people who used to pass you, or moving up to a faster group at your trackdays.

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Laptimes seem to be the most reliable way of seeing skill improvements - if you can run a faster laptime and feel MORE comfortable and in control while doing it, THAT is a big win.

 

100% agree. If getting faster meant feeling like I was taking more and more risks I wouldn't be enoying it at all. But the changes I have made this season (only my second year of track riding) using the TOTW principles and advice form you folks on the forum have allowed me to get a lot faster while also almost completely eliminating the "oh sh!t" moments. I have gone from barely fast enough to belong in intermediate and kind of half scared all the time to mid-pack intermediate and cool as a cucumber over the course of four track days this year. I don't know if I will ever make it to the hotshoe class, but if I do I will get there comfortably and by riding within myself. I am guessing that the 8 s between here and there will be harder to find than the 10 s I have found so far this year...

 

Back on topic...I am still not seeing a very satisfactory answer about knowing when it is time to upgrade to true race tires (not that I am eagerly anticipating the extra expense...)

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I don't think that using the idea of "approaching the limits of your tires" is going to be a good measure of skill improvement. For one thing, better riding technique will greatly improve the way you USE your tires (better balance of loading front/rear, less abruptness in changes in load, better ability to feel tire feedback, etc.) and will improve the way your suspension works in keeping your tires in connection with the asphalt. So hypothetically as your skills improve, you will be able to optimize the tires better and therefore slide LESS. But of course you will probably also go faster which will load the tires more. So, it's hard to measure by that.

 

Disclaimer: this turned out much longer than I intended. :lol:

 

I had an excellent example of how technique effects traction recently while riding mountain bikes with my wife. The sensation of traction on a hard-tail bicycle with limited front suspension is extremely evident compared to a motorcycle's heavy weight, large tires, and suspension. Shes just starting to get back into it but didn't have to much experience to begin with. On the downhill sections I pretty much drive it into corners with both front and rear tires sliding on their limit and I had no idea why my wife had a hard time going far less than half of my pace while still having issues with traction! Not to mention how the bike reacted on roots and rocks. They are different bikes but I've ridden both and there isn't nearly THAT much difference between them; her bike actually corners better. There was obviously a difference in the riders technique that was causing the massive gap in the bicycle's performance! She complained about the front end slipping going into every corner unless she slowed down a lot and the rear of the bike severely moved around when hitting any sort of imperfection in the terrain like rocks and roots that I just blew right over. It was all pretty easy to see while riding behind her. So we began talking about handle bar pressure and how she was supporting her body weight on the bicycle. What we found was she was supporting a lot of her weight on the handlebars and the remainder of it was put on the seat. Because she was putting constant pressure on the handlebars it prevented the bicycle's rake and trail to find the optimal traction and put unnecessary load on the front tire which caused it to slide easily compared to me being very relaxed on the handlebars. The issue with the rear of the bike moving around was caused by her placing her weight on the seat instead of using the petals. The bikes tire couldn't handle the shock of imperfections with no suspension while supporting the weight of a rider. You need to at least raise off the seat slightly so your knees absorb the shock instead of the bicycle frame. This keeps the rear tire from skipping around and helps maintain consistent traction.

 

Anyway, the moral of the story is by simply changing how you hold yourself onto the motorcycle and how you create the inputs on the controls you can change its personality from being unsafe and dangerous to being an absolute dream and predictable to ride at the same speed. If you want to lower lap times you need to use traction more EFFICIENTLY instead of more aggressively. Not only will you slide less but the slides will be predictable and easy to control while lowering your lap times all in one.

 

If your doing casual track days it really doesn't matter what tire you use. If your looking to improve your skill level than learning how to ride predictable tires with less traction like most street oriented sportbike tires than you'll learn how to use the available traction efficiently much easier than you would on a more track performance oriented tire as Hotfoot explained earlier. So you'd be much better off using something like the Dunlop Q2. A friend of mine finally upgraded to using the Dunlop GP211 after about 9 years of track day riding going at least 8 track days a year. He really could have switched to them sooner at his skill level but he was having plenty of fun on the Micheline Pilot Powers and Dunlop Q2s. He said the GP211s were a huge upgrade over the Q2 and he can be much more aggressive with the throttle before the rear starts sliding.

 

Another thing to keep in mind with tire selection is they aren't all created equal. My friend tried some Bridgestone 003 tires on the second half of his 4 days at VIR and hated them compared to the GP211. He had to be much smoother with the throttle application and the rear tire would start sliding with less throttle input compared to the GP211. If he had a different suspension setup or riding style he may have actually liked the Bridgestone tire more. You'll just have to try different tires to see what you like.

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Especially being mid-intermediate group, something spectacular has to be happening to cause so much sliding. I can't remember where I learned it, but suspension could also be playing a part in you feeling like you're sliding. You're used to 20-25 degrees of lean and that's all changing as you progress, as is your sensation of the suspension compressing and extending. If I find it I'll share. The feeling you get as suspension changes while leaned over could feel like the bike is sliding.

I've never ridden on race tires. I remember getting almost a year out of a set of tires when I was intermediate, about 8-9 trackdays. I'm mid pack advanced now and can still get 4 trackdays out of a set of Q2's. I've ridden with Cobie Fair, Jason Pridmore and Steve Rapp on tracks with them also riding Q2's, and can assure you I've got a ways to go. Some still prefer the extra few seconds they'll give you. To each his own, but street tires are so much cheaper.

I'm also riding a new track in October, and will share notes on what and how I'm doing while studying video. I start studying it way longer than a week out. It may make it so I don't have to watch as much video, but there's no replacement for repetition.

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Back on topic...I am still not seeing a very satisfactory answer about knowing when it is time to upgrade to true race tires (not that I am eagerly anticipating the extra expense...)

 

Q2s are pretty darn amazing, I've raced on them. :)

 

I think there is a thread somewhere on the forum that suggested that if you are within ten seconds of the expert race pace for your bike class you should be on slicks.

 

Personally I always prefer Q2s for track days, they cost SO much less and I don't like messing with tire warmers.

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Well, lap record for my class of bike (BOTT lightweight) is 1:16.9, so race pace is maybe +1.5? My best is 1:28.4, and my normal traffic-free laps are 1:29.x. So, by that measure, I am right on the cusp of needing to move to race tires? For perspective, the all-out lap record in competition in pro superbike is a low 1:12. However you look at it, if you like the 10 s rule, then I am somewhere between 0 and 4 s away from that.

 

I'm in no hurry to go to NTECs though. Tires, warmers, generator....$$$$$$$. Bleh. This is just supposed to be fun.

 

At our track pretty much everyone in the fast group is running 1:20 or better. They are mostly on heavily modded Japanese 1000s, with maybe a few 600s and the odd racer on an SV650. On the other hand, lots of people in intermediate run slicks and warmers.

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Well, lap record for my class of bike (BOTT lightweight) is 1:16.9, so race pace is maybe +1.5? My best is 1:28.4, and my normal traffic-free laps are 1:29.x. So, by that measure, I am right on the cusp of needing to move to race tires? For perspective, the all-out lap record in competition in pro superbike is a low 1:12. However you look at it, if you like the 10 s rule, then I am somewhere between 0 and 4 s away from that.

 

I'm in no hurry to go to NTECs though. Tires, warmers, generator....$$$$$$$. Bleh. This is just supposed to be fun.

 

At our track pretty much everyone in the fast group is running 1:20 or better. They are mostly on heavily modded Japanese 1000s, with maybe a few 600s and the odd racer on an SV650. On the other hand, lots of people in intermediate run slicks and warmers.

 

Above, I mentioned a older post I remembered about when to switch to race tires - I went back and found it, here is the link to the thread: http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3046

 

And here is what he said in it (it was tire guy, Dunlop_RTS):

"No need to change. You wont get 10 seconds faster lap time by changing to slicks. Better to keep the Q2 and spend some time on the track. When you start to push the Q2 to the limit, or are within 5-10 sec of the track record, then change to race tires."

 

I also found another thread with a lot of good info (also from him) classifying types of tires and when to use them:

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=2538

 

Hopefully this helps. Another thought I had, was to get with your local trackday tire provider and talk about this - some guys can look at the wear on your current tires and have an idea of whether you need something more aggressive, and he/she might have some race tire take-offs available for a low price that you can use to try out some various tires without spending $500+ per set. They might also have warmers you can rent or borrow for a day when you test out some tires.

 

Also, if you haven't had a suspension person check your setup, you definitely want to do that. Sometimes a $40 suspension adjustment can fix a problem with tire sliding more effectively than more expensive tires. :)

 

I'm not trying to downplay the importance ofhaving great tires, it's just that in my opinion the current trackday tires have amazing performance and you have to be riding really hard to exceed their actual limits. I think a lot of riders move up to a race tire long before it's entirely necessary, which adds an enormous extra expense to "for-fun" trackdays.

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I think I've linked these posts from Steve before, but here they are once again to be sure.

When Should I switch from Q2 to Race Tires (D211GPA or better)?

http://tracktalk.nesba.com/showthread.php?t=19249

 

 

Pressure and Warmer info

http://tracktalk.nesba.com/showthread.php?t=19270

 

Another interesting point I think on switching to race tires. It seems I frequently see forum comments from the faster guys, "when you finally try [insert any DOT race or slick tire] you just won't believe how great they are!" I have many times then thought, "well, if they are that great then why am I waiting to try them?" I have, for now at least, convinced myself Q2's are just fine (especially given their relatively low price) and there is no reason to try something up-spec, but I do still feel the itch to try GPA's (or maybe even slicks).

 

 

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Especially being mid-intermediate group, something spectacular has to be happening to cause so much sliding. I can't remember where I learned it, but suspension could also be playing a part in you feeling like you're sliding. You're used to 20-25 degrees of lean and that's all changing as you progress, as is your sensation of the suspension compressing and extending. If I find it I'll share. The feeling you get as suspension changes while leaned over could feel like the bike is sliding.

I've never ridden on race tires. I remember getting almost a year out of a set of tires when I was intermediate, about 8-9 trackdays. I'm mid pack advanced now and can still get 4 trackdays out of a set of Q2's. I've ridden with Cobie Fair, Jason Pridmore and Steve Rapp on tracks with them also riding Q2's, and can assure you I've got a ways to go. Some still prefer the extra few seconds they'll give you. To each his own, but street tires are so much cheaper.

I'm also riding a new track in October, and will share notes on what and how I'm doing while studying video. I start studying it way longer than a week out. It may make it so I don't have to watch as much video, but there's no replacement for repetition.

 

 

Yes, the take-home message I am getting from all of this is that the Superbike Pros are probably just fine for me for the foreseeable future. I really do like the tires, and you can't beat them for durability. Mine are wearing so evenly it is phenominal.

 

It wasn't "so much sliding" - just one slide (or so I thought!) during cornering, and a bunch of front tire wiggles under braking before I adjusted pressures.

 

Look forward to your report on how you manage to get up to speed on the new circuit.

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Cheers for those links Hotfoot!

 

And thanks for those links also Brad.

Another interesting point I think on switching to race tires. It seems I frequently see forum comments from the faster guys, "when you finally try [insert any DOT race or slick tire] you just won't believe how great they are!" I have many times then thought, "well, if they are that great then why am I waiting to try them?" I have, for now at least, convinced myself Q2's are just fine (especially given their relatively low price) and there is no reason to try something up-spec, but I do still feel the itch to try GPA's (or maybe even slicks).

 

Yep - definitely an interesting point! In some cases (mostly for myself) I think of better tyres as being similar to other upgrades like carbon fibre wheels and Ohlins suspension. I figure that yes, those things will give an immediate improvement, but that will remain true no matter what level your riding is at. I think it's of more benefit to continue to improve my skills on current equipment rather than trying to gain once-off improvement through part/tyre upgrade.

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