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Hook Turns

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got it. Next time somebody says "loud handle", I'll know what it means. lol. More than knowing that a technique works is knowing that experienced riders use it.

 

Hook turn works REALLY well on the S1000rrs! We just did some days in the rain and I used hook turn a lot, especially as I was first learning the track, to tighten up my line without adding any lean angle, since I was concerned about the amount of grip available.

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So if you do pro-racing style and hook early in the turn only to find that you are running too tight, unhooking doesn't seem correct somehow. Steering correction seems the safer way to go?

There is another way to widen your arc without adding a steering input (and without changing body position), who knows what that is?

 

 

Turn the loud handle.

 

 

What if the loud handle is at 11, then what????

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So if you do pro-racing style and hook early in the turn only to find that you are running too tight, unhooking doesn't seem correct somehow. Steering correction seems the safer way to go?

There is another way to widen your arc without adding a steering input (and without changing body position), who knows what that is?

 

 

Turn the loud handle.

 

 

Bingo!

 

Wishy Thinky, if you are riding in a steady circle in a parking lot, and you add throttle and increase your speed, without changing anything else, what happens to the diameter of your circle?

 

The moment I think I got the idea of what the "loud handle" does, something like this changes that- LoL. Elsewhere on the forum, we've discussed ad-nauseum that a properly setup bike does NOT run wide with throttle. Is there now room for refinement of that idea? Must be, because it's a simple observation to make that applying more juice widens the arc. I've been meaning to get an RC bike to understand how the throttle influences turn radius. I'm going to think on this a bit more.

 

Nice to be back on the forum again.

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The moment I think I got the idea of what the "loud handle" does, something like this changes that- LoL. Elsewhere on the forum, we've discussed ad-nauseum that a properly setup bike does NOT run wide with throttle. Is there now room for refinement of that idea? Must be, because it's a simple observation to make that applying more juice widens the arc. I've been meaning to get an RC bike to understand how the throttle influences turn radius. I'm going to think on this a bit more.

 

Nice to be back on the forum again.

 

 

 

The thing that increases the radius of your arc (assuming no steering input, no change in lean angle) is an increase in SPEED. Same lean angle at a higher speed = larger diameter circle.

 

One discussion we have had on the forum, and possibly the one you are thinking of, is that rolling on the gas does not change lean angle. There is a common misconception that rolling on the gas stands the bike up, but on a properly set up sport bike that is not true.

 

If you enter a high speed corner off-throttle, then gently crack open the gas, are you, at that point, speeding up, or could you still be slowing down?

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The moment I think I got the idea of what the "loud handle" does, something like this changes that- LoL. Elsewhere on the forum, we've discussed ad-nauseum that a properly setup bike does NOT run wide with throttle. Is there now room for refinement of that idea? Must be, because it's a simple observation to make that applying more juice widens the arc. I've been meaning to get an RC bike to understand how the throttle influences turn radius. I'm going to think on this a bit more.

 

Nice to be back on the forum again.

 

 

 

The thing that increases the radius of your arc (assuming no steering input, no change in lean angle) is an increase in SPEED. Same lean angle at a higher speed = larger diameter circle.

 

One discussion we have had on the forum, and possibly the one you are thinking of, is that rolling on the gas does not change lean angle. There is a common misconception that rolling on the gas stands the bike up, but on a properly set up sport bike that is not true.

 

If you enter a high speed corner off-throttle, then gently crack open the gas, are you, at that point, speeding up, or could you still be slowing down?

 

Thank you for bringing the correct terms back. Yes, throttle doesn't change lean angle. If nothing else changes, with rider input except throttle then physics says that more energy in has to go somewhere. The rate of roll determines if you're accelerating or decelerating or maintaining.

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The moment I think I got the idea of what the "loud handle" does, something like this changes that- LoL. Elsewhere on the forum, we've discussed ad-nauseum that a properly setup bike does NOT run wide with throttle. Is there now room for refinement of that idea? Must be, because it's a simple observation to make that applying more juice widens the arc. I've been meaning to get an RC bike to understand how the throttle influences turn radius. I'm going to think on this a bit more.

 

Nice to be back on the forum again.

 

 

 

The thing that increases the radius of your arc (assuming no steering input, no change in lean angle) is an increase in SPEED. Same lean angle at a higher speed = larger diameter circle.

 

One discussion we have had on the forum, and possibly the one you are thinking of, is that rolling on the gas does not change lean angle. There is a common misconception that rolling on the gas stands the bike up, but on a properly set up sport bike that is not true.

 

If you enter a high speed corner off-throttle, then gently crack open the gas, are you, at that point, speeding up, or could you still be slowing down?

 

 

Ooh ooh! Ask me! Ask me!

 

I think the answer is that you could still be slowing down. Just turning the bike slows it, so you would need more throttle in a turn to maintain the same speed as you had before the turn. Also, when you roll the bike over onto the side of the tire the engine rpms rise because the rolling diameter of the tire in contact with the ground decreases. I *think* it might take more throttle just to maintain that higher rpm that represents the same bike speed.

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Given no change in throttle position, how much does the RPM increase from vertical to full tilt boogie? Sorry, I'm not yet at the point where I can mind my tachometer on corner entry. And perhaps my hearing isn't as sensitive as I thought, but you must be right cause...it just is! Or maybe the habit of rolling on is well ingrained (thank Gregg) and I'm feeling for traction while verifying trajectory, using up all my available attention units.

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If you enter a high speed corner off-throttle, then gently crack open the gas, are you, at that point, speeding up, or could you still be slowing down?

 

Ooh ooh! Ask me! Ask me!

 

I think the answer is that you could still be slowing down. Just turning the bike slows it, so you would need more throttle in a turn to maintain the same speed as you had before the turn.

 

Yes, absolutely. It often comes as a surprise to riders - especially in high speed turns where wind resistance is also a factor - just how much throttle it takes to actually INCREASE speed in a turn.

 

(On the flip side, it sometimes comes as a surprise to ME how much SOME riders are willing to crank OPEN the throttle in the middle of a turn!! :blink: )

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Given no change in throttle position, how much does the RPM increase from vertical to full tilt boogie? Sorry, I'm not yet at the point where I can mind my tachometer on corner entry. And perhaps my hearing isn't as sensitive as I thought, but you must be right cause...it just is! Or maybe the habit of rolling on is well ingrained (thank Gregg) and I'm feeling for traction while verifying trajectory, using up all my available attention units.

 

I believe it would be difficult to answer this because it depends on tire size, tire profile, the gear you are in, starting RPM, and speed, and how much you can lean over for your given bike (a Harley with sideboards won't crank over as far as an RS125 with a brave 11 year old kid on it). You could probably, with a lot of math effort, identify the increase for your particular bike on your particular tires by measuring the circumference of the tire at the center of the tire versus the circumference at the contact patch when you are fully leaned over (just look at the wear pattern to find where to measure), then calculate the difference and then get into the gear ratio versus engine speed to figure out how much faster the engine would spin on the smaller circumference, or maybe you could make a rough guess just by comparing the % difference of center circumference vs leaned over circumference and relate that the % change of RPM.

 

From a purely riding standpoint, I'd say it won't be very noticeable UNLESS you are nearly at the rev limiter already and leaning it over might make you HIT the limiter, in which case you need to shift before leaning it over OR change your gearing to better suit the track you are riding. If, for example, you are topped out completely in your highest gear and will hit the rev limiter when you lean over in the turn, you may need to gear the bike higher, or get a more powerful bike!

 

If you are riding a 2-stroke low HP bike, however, managing the very narrow power band is extremely important and this can be a big issue, a small change in RPM can put you in (or out) of the power band and knowing that the RPM will rise as you lean over is very useful information. Come to think of it, a 2-stroke rider could probably TELL you how to calculate the change in RPM, and maybe one of those gear calculators on the sprocket manufacturers websites would have a calculator that could figure it out for you.

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So if you do pro-racing style and hook early in the turn only to find that you are running too tight, unhooking doesn't seem correct somehow. Steering correction seems the safer way to go?

There is another way to widen your arc without adding a steering input (and without changing body position), who knows what that is?

 

 

Turn the loud handle.

 

 

Bingo!

 

Wishy Thinky, if you are riding in a steady circle in a parking lot, and you add throttle and increase your speed, without changing anything else, what happens to the diameter of your circle?

 

The moment I think I got the idea of what the "loud handle" does, something like this changes that- LoL. Elsewhere on the forum, we've discussed ad-nauseum that a properly setup bike does NOT run wide with throttle. Is there now room for refinement of that idea? Must be, because it's a simple observation to make that applying more juice widens the arc. I've been meaning to get an RC bike to understand how the throttle influences turn radius. I'm going to think on this a bit more.

 

Nice to be back on the forum again.

 

 

I was thinking that something like this would allow execution of this experiment

https://youtu.be/msULdH2Drdc

 

After having given some thought to this, an RC vehicle doesn't work well due to the fact that they need a gyro-stabilization system...and I have my doubts about them being true counter-steered vehicles.

 

Dylan posted something a couple weeks ago about a guy (long Greek name, starting with "P") who explored the mathematics of bicycles. Thinking with that I posit what would be the best tool for exploration of the relationship between lean angle, turning radius and throttle % (and rate of change). IMO, the best tool for this would be the NO BS BIKE but it would have to be modified to lock the front and rear suspension in a static position in travel, otherwise the interaction and change in geometry would affect the results of the experiment. After locking the suspension in place, then the bike could be restored and a data acquisition system could be added to measure and record fork and shock travel through the circle maneuver for real-world application. Every effort should be made to ensure rider input once established in the turn is limited to only throttle.

 

Thoughts?

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I was thinking that something like this would allow execution of this experiment

https://youtu.be/msULdH2Drdc

 

After having given some thought to this, an RC vehicle doesn't work well due to the fact that they need a gyro-stabilization system...and I have my doubts about them being true counter-steered vehicles.

 

Dylan posted something a couple weeks ago about a guy (long Greek name, starting with "P") who explored the mathematics of bicycles. Thinking with that I posit what would be the best tool for exploration of the relationship between lean angle, turning radius and throttle % (and rate of change). IMO, the best tool for this would be the NO BS BIKE but it would have to be modified to lock the front and rear suspension in a static position in travel, otherwise the interaction and change in geometry would affect the results of the experiment. After locking the suspension in place, then the bike could be restored and a data acquisition system could be added to measure and record fork and shock travel through the circle maneuver for real-world application. Every effort should be made to ensure rider input once established in the turn is limited to only throttle.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

What is it you are trying to figure out with the experiment? If you take out the hard-to-predict variables like suspension movement and a rider moving around, you can directly calculate the relationship between speed, arc, and lean angle, there is a relatively simple formula for that. Here's kind of a fun article from Wired on the topic: https://www.wired.com/2015/09/just-far-can-motorcycle-lean-turn/

 

You couldn't directly relate that the throttle % because that varies by speed, gear, engine size, and the throttle travel characteristics of the bike (for example, a quick-turn throttle would not have to be moved as much as a standard one). And you'd have to turn the throttle a lot more on a YSR50 to get from 45 mph to 50 mph on a circle (probably close to wide open, actually), where the S1000rr would do it with a much smaller % roll-on in 1st or 2nd gear. And as any rider can easily observe, it takes a lot more of a roll-on to increase speed in a higher gear than in a lower one - if you enter a turn in too high a gear, it is much more difficult to get acceleration than if you are right in the power band of the motorcycle, so the amount (%) you have to roll on the throttle changes.

 

If you just want to know how much you have to turn the throttle to maintain (or increase) speed on your own type of motorcycle ( or how much the bike would "hook" in hook turn position, if that is what you are trying to compute), it would seem far simpler to just take your own bike out to a parking lot and ride some circles and just try it, see how much you have to turn the throttle to notice an increase in speed and radius, or observe that as speed comes up you have to lean it more to maintain the same radius, etc.

 

After all, no theory or description in a book would be nearly as meaningful as directly observing it for yourself, right?

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I hypothesize that the effects that we observe on this matter have a different cause than that which has been attributed. I hypothesize that provided the tires "stick" that the same circle diameter can be run at same lean angles and different speeds. I hypothesize that the reasons for the change in lean angle required is to handle the greater suspension load. Which brings to mind that we cannot use pneumatic tires for the experiment for they would absorb some of the load that the suspension would normally be tasked to do. I recon that this works only in ranges and that they would be evenly spaced and linear.

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I hypothesize that the effects that we observe on this matter have a different cause than that which has been attributed. I hypothesize that provided the tires "stick" that the same circle diameter can be run at same lean angles and different speeds. I hypothesize that the reasons for the change in lean angle required is to handle the greater suspension load. Which brings to mind that we cannot use pneumatic tires for the experiment for they would absorb some of the load that the suspension would normally be tasked to do. I recon that this works only in ranges and that they would be evenly spaced and linear.

 

Sounds like a project that will have you reading a lot of prior motorcycle/bicycle research. Maybe you can find an experiment someone has done with bicycles with solid tires and no suspension.

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