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Not Sure If This Is Right


aslcbr600

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Speaking of bent shift forks, Joe Roberts had to miss the 2nd race of the CodeRACE school due to a suspected bent fork :-(

At least it made for more exciting racing (and I didn't have to get lapped) ;-)

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Yea I have watched that video and it is impressive. Hotfoot- Would you say it would be better to use the clutch method until I have a slipper clutch installed to reduce risk of damaging anything?

 

The slipper clutch really kicks in if you hold the clutch in so long that the RPMs really drop, then let the clutch out quickly - it will keep your rear tire from locking up (hypothetically) while the engine speed catches back up to wheel speed. I honestly don't know whether it would make any difference on clutchless shifts at all; I ride bikes with both the slipper clutch and without, I can't tell any difference. The only time I notice the slipper is if I use the clutch to downshift, which I really only do if I've made a gigantic error and I'm trying to recover. :) Before I learned clutchless downshifting I thought the slipper clutch was a godsend but now I am just fine riding a bike without one.

 

The only time I've ever had any grinding or scary shifts was when I tried to lightly feather the clutch, pulling it only partway in, and shifting. You can get some gnarly sounds doing that, if you arent quick enough or screw up the blip. I've also heard of people doing damage by pre-loading the shifter (Will HATES it when people do that) or stomping down hard on the shifter to try to force it - that can bend the lever. But a regular clutchless downshift should just click right in, no drama.

 

On every bike I've ridden (which includes dirt bikes, a cruiser and even my little old YSR) it either shifts, or it doesn't. If you get the timing wrong it just won't change.

 

This is just my opinion and my personal experience but I think the easiest and safest way to to it is the way I described earlier in the thread - in a high gear, at low rpm, accelerate, then left off the throttle and RIGHT when you let off, downshift. It should just drop right into the lower gear. After you get that timing, you can go back and add the blip so you can shift while slowing down.

 

 

 

 

Ah gotcha! So the slipper clutch isn't a "must have" unless your using the clutch.....If I get another chance to get out there and try it providing weather I will take the gopro out and mount it so you can see the tach and practice what you said and report back with the video.

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Here is my video of me practicing clutchless downshifting, I only used the clutch on upshifts. I already have my input on the video but I want to see what you guys think first. I edited the video so you don't have to worry about skipping through it. At the end of the video I added some braking and faster downshifts.

 

Thanks for watching!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-6bDY6qf6U

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Were you clutching the upshifts just so you could tell the difference between going up and down ?? I notice your downshifts take about half the time of your upshifts and you don't have the massive RPM loss on the engine. The ones under braking at the end sounded good to my untrained ear, you didn't seem to be rushing or braking very hard but still managed 3 downshifts in about 3.5 seconds

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Were you clutching the upshifts just so you could tell the difference between going up and down ?? I notice your downshifts take about half the time of your upshifts and you don't have the massive RPM loss on the engine. The ones under braking at the end sounded good to my untrained ear, you didn't seem to be rushing or braking very hard but still managed 3 downshifts in about 3.5 seconds

 

 

 

No I was only clutching the upshifts because I wanted to focus on the downshifting, I have a quick shifter so there isn't any real point for me to practice clutchless upshifting. Yea at the end I wasn't purposely banging down the gears just trying to be as smooth as possible.

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I am sure this is common when practicing this but I REALLY have to focus when doing this, if I were to race tomorrow I certainly wouldn't be using this technique because it would make me a lot slower because I would feel so rushed to brake and still do it correctly. However with plenty of practice and working my way up I feel like this is a great technique and honestly for me personally I feel that it's easier to rev match without using the clutch vs using the clutch because like you said you lose so much RPM. Once you get the feeling for how hard you have to blip the throttle in each gear it will make you a lot smoother.

 

I did have a couple jerky ones but that was because I didn't have the blip quite right. This is only my second time out practicing this so I am still learning for sure! The other thing I started doing was I would set a marker for myself and once I got to that marker I would downshift to help get me in that on demand mindset rather then whenever I feel comfortable.

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I am sure this is common when practicing this but I REALLY have to focus when doing this, if I were to race tomorrow I certainly wouldn't be using this technique because it would make me a lot slower because I would feel so rushed to brake and still do it correctly. However with plenty of practice and working my way up I feel like this is a great technique and honestly for me personally I feel that it's easier to rev match without using the clutch vs using the clutch because like you said you lose so much RPM. Once you get the feeling for how hard you have to blip the throttle in each gear it will make you a lot smoother.

 

I did have a couple jerky ones but that was because I didn't have the blip quite right. This is only my second time out practicing this so I am still learning for sure! The other thing I started doing was I would set a marker for myself and once I got to that marker I would downshift to help get me in that on demand mindset rather then whenever I feel comfortable.

 

Sounds like you've got it figured out! The ones on the video sounded good, and yes it takes some practice to coordinate it, it's definitely a bit of reprogramming. Great job getting out there and trying it out, and thanks for posting up the video!

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I am sure this is common when practicing this but I REALLY have to focus when doing this, if I were to race tomorrow I certainly wouldn't be using this technique because it would make me a lot slower because I would feel so rushed to brake and still do it correctly. However with plenty of practice and working my way up I feel like this is a great technique and honestly for me personally I feel that it's easier to rev match without using the clutch vs using the clutch because like you said you lose so much RPM. Once you get the feeling for how hard you have to blip the throttle in each gear it will make you a lot smoother.

 

I did have a couple jerky ones but that was because I didn't have the blip quite right. This is only my second time out practicing this so I am still learning for sure! The other thing I started doing was I would set a marker for myself and once I got to that marker I would downshift to help get me in that on demand mindset rather then whenever I feel comfortable.

 

Sounds like you've got it figured out! The ones on the video sounded good, and yes it takes some practice to coordinate it, it's definitely a bit of reprogramming. Great job getting out there and trying it out, and thanks for posting up the video!

 

 

 

 

Thank you! You really helped me out with this! I am glad the video worked out because as you know it's better to show something then to explain it with things like this lol.

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......... - in a high gear, at low rpm, accelerate, then left off the throttle and RIGHT when you let off, downshift. It should just drop right into the lower gear. After you get that timing, you can go back and add the blip so you can shift while slowing down.

 

Just to better understand: aslcbr600's video does not show the added blip.

 

Am I correct?

 

If so, when exactly the blip takes place?

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......... - in a high gear, at low rpm, accelerate, then left off the throttle and RIGHT when you let off, downshift. It should just drop right into the lower gear. After you get that timing, you can go back and add the blip so you can shift while slowing down.

 

Just to better understand: aslcbr600's video does not show the added blip.

 

Am I correct?

 

If so, when exactly the blip takes place?

 

 

 

I think your missing a post here......

 

quoted from Hotfoot:

 

"Sounds like you've got it figured out! The ones on the video sounded good, and yes it takes some practice to coordinate it, it's definitely a bit of reprogramming. Great job getting out there and trying it out, and thanks for posting up the video!"

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I think your missing a post here......

 

I didn't miss the post or the quote. huh.gif

 

Sorry, I simply cannot see the blip anywhere in the video, just the simultaneous roll-off / shift that Hotfoot explained as the first step to practice the technique.

 

I would like to learn how and when the throttle blip should be. smile.gif

 

 

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I think your missing a post here......

 

I didn't miss the post or the quote. huh.gif

 

Sorry, I simply cannot see the blip anywhere in the video, just the simultaneous roll-off / shift that Hotfoot explained as the first step to practice the technique.

 

I would like to learn how and when the throttle blip should be. smile.gif

 

WHEN: The blip happens simultaneously with the shift. If you do it too early, you will feel the bike surge forward, if you do it too late the bike won't shift.

HOW: Blip right when you shift, and just enough to match the RPM to where it would be in the lower gear. You will have to experiment with it to get it right for your bike. Too MUCH blip will make the bike accelerate (not desirable if you are TRYING to slow down for an upcoming turn) and it may not shift.

If you don't blip enough, it just won't shift.

(Finer point: if you blip a little too much, the RPMs go a little too high, but the bike might still shift, if you catch the sweet spot as the RPMs are going up or going down. So if you get the downshift but the bike jerks forward a little AFTERWARDS, the blip was a bit too much and probably a little late compared to your throttle action.)

 

When you shift without the clutch the RPMs don't have time to fall very far like they do when you pull in the clutch. So It doesn't take much of a blip to get it to shift, when you are cruising along at a relatively low RPM - just enough to take the load off the gears. However, if you have the bike wound up to a high RPM AND you are braking hard and decelerating rapidly, the RPMs are already going down quickly, the load on the gears is much higher, and it takes a more significant blip to match the RPM on the downshift. In the CSS demo videos, Will is riding faster and braking harder so you can really hear the blip.

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I think your missing a post here......

 

I didn't miss the post or the quote. huh.gif

 

Sorry, I simply cannot see the blip anywhere in the video, just the simultaneous roll-off / shift that Hotfoot explained as the first step to practice the technique.

 

I would like to learn how and when the throttle blip should be. smile.gif

 

 

 

 

 

The technique is right when you roll off is to shift then blip the throttle...now when you watch the video you will see me blip the throttle, you can see me bring the throttle back in. I am not just rolling off and downshifting and then letting the engine catch up the wheel speed. This would have a violent jerking motion, it may not be very obvious because I was at lower RPM's in higher gears. The blip isn't a huge rev or anything it's just a quick and small twist of the throttle.

 

The best example of this is at the end of the video when I am braking, if I weren't blipping the throttle the bike would bog down and it would be a very jerky and unstable braking process. Are you getting the blip confused with when you use the clutch? If you pull the clutch in you have to make the blip more obvious because when you pull the clutch in you lose a lot of RPM so it's that much harder you have to blip the throttle...

 

I hope I explained this well enough?

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I think your missing a post here......

 

I didn't miss the post or the quote. huh.gif

 

Sorry, I simply cannot see the blip anywhere in the video, just the simultaneous roll-off / shift that Hotfoot explained as the first step to practice the technique.

 

I would like to learn how and when the throttle blip should be. smile.gif

 

WHEN: The blip happens simultaneously with the shift. If you do it too early, you will feel the bike surge forward, if you do it too late the bike won't shift.

HOW: Blip right when you shift, and just enough to match the RPM to where it would be in the lower gear. You will have to experiment with it to get it right for your bike. Too MUCH blip will make the bike accelerate (not desirable if you are TRYING to slow down for an upcoming turn) and it may not shift.

If you don't blip enough, it just won't shift.

(Finer point: if you blip a little too much, the RPMs go a little too high, but the bike might still shift, if you catch the sweet spot as the RPMs are going up or going down. So if you get the downshift but the bike jerks forward a little AFTERWARDS, the blip was a bit too much and probably a little late compared to your throttle action.)

 

When you shift without the clutch the RPMs don't have time to fall very far like they do when you pull in the clutch. So It doesn't take much of a blip to get it to shift, when you are cruising along at a relatively low RPM - just enough to take the load off the gears. However, if you have the bike wound up to a high RPM AND you are braking hard and decelerating rapidly, the RPMs are already going down quickly, the load on the gears is much higher, and it takes a more significant blip to match the RPM on the downshift. In the CSS demo videos, Will is riding faster and braking harder so you can really hear the blip.

 

 

 

haha you beat me to it! Although your explanation is much more detailed!

 

 

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I tried clutchless shifting today. It's not difficult to change down at a steady pace or when gently slowing down, but I see little benefit from it. To master it while braking hard boggles the mind. Clutchless upshifts are far easier, but it is still very easy to move the throttle too much or too little or be a fraction late or slow with the foot, enough that you notice the shift. No clunks or jerks, just not perfectly seamless like they can be when absolutely perfect. It's easier under hard acceleration than under gentle acceleration or steady state cruising, but can be done under any condition with perfect timing. However, I feel that regarding downshifts, there is no room for misses, just perfection. And I simply lack the coordination, regardless of how much I practice, to obtain perfection.

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I tried clutchless shifting today. It's not difficult to change down at a steady pace or when gently slowing down, but I see little benefit from it. To master it while braking hard boggles the mind. Clutchless upshifts are far easier, but it is still very easy to move the throttle too much or too little or be a fraction late or slow with the foot, enough that you notice the shift. No clunks or jerks, just not perfectly seamless like they can be when absolutely perfect. It's easier under hard acceleration than under gentle acceleration or steady state cruising, but can be done under any condition with perfect timing. However, I feel that regarding downshifts, there is no room for misses, just perfection. And I simply lack the coordination, regardless of how much I practice, to obtain perfection.

 

 

 

Well what works for some doesn't work for others, that's what makes each rider unique in their own way! Me personally I like this much better because it's one less lever I have to pull and coordinate.

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I'm glad you like it and that you see it that way. For me, the clutch can be operated without absorbing brain power and it's also quite forgiving, meaning blips don't have to be absolutely perfect, nor does timing of the shift; the clutch will mask other mistakes/imperfections from me. It's probably a bit like trail braking, another issue debated here; many seems reluctant to do it, for me it's the most natural way to ride and is automatic, whereas the mostly no-brake drill and early throttle application I practice now takes a lot more brain power and concentration. So there seems to be some leeway for personal preferences :)

 

PS! Looking forward to hear your progress with your new shifting technique and how it goes in more aggressive situations.

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I'm glad you like it and that you see it that way. For me, the clutch can be operated without absorbing brain power and it's also quite forgiving, meaning blips don't have to be absolutely perfect, nor does timing of the shift; the clutch will mask other mistakes/imperfections from me. It's probably a bit like trail braking, another issue debated here; many seems reluctant to do it, for me it's the most natural way to ride and is automatic, whereas the mostly no-brake drill and early throttle application I practice now takes a lot more brain power and concentration. So there seems to be some leeway for personal preferences :)

 

PS! Looking forward to hear your progress with your new shifting technique and how it goes in more aggressive situations.

 

 

 

Ha! I wish I could do it in more aggressive situations, in the frozen north riding season is pretty much on it's last leg. No trackdays or anything, however I will be waiting for the 2013 CSS schedule to come out so I can book my first Level 1 class and a Level 2 class. So I guess I will have to practice it there when I get the chance. I eat, sleep and breathe this stuff so I doubt I will get rusty in between classes during the winter but one can only hope lol.

 

I think trailbraking is a great tool to have, granted it's not the fastest drive out of the corner process but in RACING applications it for sure has it's uses. There is no one way to ride, you have to find that balance between what is best suggested and what also works for you! None of the GP riders ride the exact same, if they did there would be no competition.

 

For me pumping the clutch just doesn't work, I have tried it and even with my adjustable levers maxed out I still can't manage to not squish my fingers while pulling the clutch lever in. Cool to see that you went out there and tried something to see how it worked for you though, that's all you can do to find what works best for each rider!

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For me pumping the clutch just doesn't work, I have tried it and even with my adjustable levers maxed out I still can't manage to not squish my fingers while pulling the clutch lever in. Cool to see that you went out there and tried something to see how it worked for you though, that's all you can do to find what works best for each rider!

 

A bit late getting to this thread, did you guys already talk about simply make any shifts w/out the clutch?

 

CF

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For me pumping the clutch just doesn't work, I have tried it and even with my adjustable levers maxed out I still can't manage to not squish my fingers while pulling the clutch lever in. Cool to see that you went out there and tried something to see how it worked for you though, that's all you can do to find what works best for each rider!

 

A bit late getting to this thread, did you guys already talk about simply make any shifts w/out the clutch?

 

CF

 

 

 

lol yea man you are way late!

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lol yea man you are way late!

 

I was too rushed to read the whole darn thing.

 

I'd heard there was a thread that guys were worried about transmissions and clutches while doing clutchless down shifting...was this is?

 

CF

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lol yea man you are way late!

 

I was too rushed to read the whole darn thing.

 

I'd heard there was a thread that guys were worried about transmissions and clutches while doing clutchless down shifting...was this is?

 

CF

 

Yes - that was discussed in some detail and also there are some different viewpoints on how quickly/reliably folks could shift clutchless, versus using the clutch, versus just pulling the clutch partway in ("feathering" it).

 

So, we would love to hear your viewpoint on the whole thing - do you downshift without the clutch and why? Any worries about potential damage to the transmission?

 

One person also had asked why they don't see pro racers shifting without the clutch - is it true that they don't, and if so, why?

 

I know you shift without the clutch, both up and down - what are your reasons for doing so?

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I think your missing a post here......

 

I didn't miss the post or the quote. huh.gif

 

Sorry, I simply cannot see the blip anywhere in the video, just the simultaneous roll-off / shift that Hotfoot explained as the first step to practice the technique.

 

I would like to learn how and when the throttle blip should be. smile.gif

 

WHEN: The blip happens simultaneously with the shift. If you do it too early, you will feel the bike surge forward, if you do it too late the bike won't shift.

HOW: Blip right when you shift, and just enough to match the RPM to where it would be in the lower gear. You will have to experiment with it to get it right for your bike. Too MUCH blip will make the bike accelerate (not desirable if you are TRYING to slow down for an upcoming turn) and it may not shift.

If you don't blip enough, it just won't shift.

 

Thank you both very much for your previous and clear responses, Hotfoot and Aslcbr600.

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