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Cobie Fair

Throttle And Lean Angle...increasing At The Same Time.

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Just managed to see the last WSB races. The crash by Johnny Rea was analyzed by the announcer, and said he had done nothing wrong.

 

I had to go back and rewind 4-5 times but lean angle was not comping up when he came into the gas it was coming down a hair.

 

This is one of, if not the single biggest cause of crashes we see at the track. Watching the pros, I also saw it happening there, but the crash with Johnny Rea was hard to see.

 

If any of you still have it, have a look let us know what you see.

 

CF

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I rewound that crash over and over and I thought the same thing. I was surprised the announcers didnt feel he had just "gotten greedy" with the throttle. I don't want to second guess a pro, but that's what it looked like on the replay.

 

One of the things I love watching is how riders like Stoner pick up the bike on exit. There's a good slo-mo shot of it in this clip:

 

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I rewound that crash over and over and I thought the same thing. I was surprised the announcers didnt feel he had just "gotten greedy" with the throttle. I don't want to second guess a pro, but that's what it looked like on the replay.

 

One of the things I love watching is how riders like Stoner pick up the bike on exit. There's a good slo-mo shot of it in this clip:

 

 

Modern bikes and tires work so well, and one can "get away with" so much...one even sees top pros doing it. A few years back it is the cause of Lorenzo's highsides. The one that messed Rossi up, I haven't reviewed it in detail but another coach told me he thought that the case.

 

Let me know what you guys see...

 

Best,

CF

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Cobie,

 

I am a little confused with your premise here (could be misreading and I don't have the video). Are you saying that he crashed because he was increasing lean angle while applying throttle? Isn't the apex generally where you achieve max lean angle as it's the slowest point of the corner? In medium speed and higher speed corners I will often start applying maintenance throttle right after I turn in to settle the bike. Why would this lead to more crashes? I raced karts as a kid, then cars, switched to bikes while in the military and still often find myself thinking like I am on four wheels. Is this the case here?

 

Matt

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As I understand it, we're talking more than maintenance throttle here. Grabbing a handful you'd use to accelerate out of the corner - when you'd also likely pick the bike up a bit - while adding more lean will overpower the grip available.

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Cobie,

 

I am a little confused with your premise here (could be misreading and I don't have the video). Are you saying that he crashed because he was increasing lean angle while applying throttle? Isn't the apex generally where you achieve max lean angle as it's the slowest point of the corner? In medium speed and higher speed corners I will often start applying maintenance throttle right after I turn in to settle the bike. Why would this lead to more crashes? I raced karts as a kid, then cars, switched to bikes while in the military and still often find myself thinking like I am on four wheels. Is this the case here?

 

Matt

 

Matt,

 

It's the 2 combined that is the problem. His throttle was coming on, and looks to me like a bit of lean angle was being added. The kinds of slides one gets with these 2 together are not friendly, easy to recover, small slides. It will even defeat the electronics. It's not easy to see, but looked to me that a little lean angle was being added when he was coming into the gas.

 

CF

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Cobie,

 

I see what you are getting at. Thanks for the reply and the forum...

 

Matt

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What about Pedrosa's crash at Philip Island? Same thing?

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I think I'm missing part of the point here: is more throttle and more lean angle always bad?

There are three long corners I come across on a regular basis:

1. double apex RH. Entry is over a crest, first apex is early, run out wide accelerating all the while, 2nd apex whilst still accelerating, picking the bike up and driving

2. very long (210degree) very fast RH. narrow entry, treated as double apex. entry fast, closed throttle slowing to mid corner 2/3 of the way out then accelerating towards 2nd apex, pick up and drive.

3.long LH (170deg). carry lots of speed in using engine braking to tighten line. hug curb. accelerate. pick up bike on exit pick up and lay onto rhs for rh bend sequence

 

All of these corners (for me) are characterised by the same thing - at some point well before the 'apex' I am accelerating and this generates more lean angle.

Is this bad?

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What about Pedrosa's crash at Philip Island? Same thing?

 

From what I saw it looked like to much lean angle. I'm pretty sure I saw parts scrapping just before the tires let go. Also he lost the front and rear tires in his wreck. Adding throttle and lean angle at the same time will make the rear kick our suddenly but doesn't have much effect on the front tire.

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I think I'm missing part of the point here: is more throttle and more lean angle always bad?

There are three long corners I come across on a regular basis:

1. double apex RH. Entry is over a crest, first apex is early, run out wide accelerating all the while, 2nd apex whilst still accelerating, picking the bike up and driving

2. very long (210degree) very fast RH. narrow entry, treated as double apex. entry fast, closed throttle slowing to mid corner 2/3 of the way out then accelerating towards 2nd apex, pick up and drive.

3.long LH (170deg). carry lots of speed in using engine braking to tighten line. hug curb. accelerate. pick up bike on exit pick up and lay onto rhs for rh bend sequence

 

All of these corners (for me) are characterised by the same thing - at some point well before the 'apex' I am accelerating and this generates more lean angle.

Is this bad?

 

I think you're misunderstanding the concept somewhat, In any of these corners are you accelerating while steering the bike and applying lean angle ?

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I think I'm missing part of the point here: is more throttle and more lean angle always bad?

There are three long corners I come across on a regular basis:

1. double apex RH. Entry is over a crest, first apex is early, run out wide accelerating all the while, 2nd apex whilst still accelerating, picking the bike up and driving

2. very long (210degree) very fast RH. narrow entry, treated as double apex. entry fast, closed throttle slowing to mid corner 2/3 of the way out then accelerating towards 2nd apex, pick up and drive.

3.long LH (170deg). carry lots of speed in using engine braking to tighten line. hug curb. accelerate. pick up bike on exit pick up and lay onto rhs for rh bend sequence

 

All of these corners (for me) are characterised by the same thing - at some point well before the 'apex' I am accelerating and this generates more lean angle.

Is this bad?

Turn the bike, get it to lean angle you want, then roll-on, pick up the bike when appropriate, all is well. If you roll-on at the same time you are steering the bike (adding throttle and adding lean simultaneously) then you're taking a bigger risk. Adding throttle and picking up the bike generally is ok.

 

Roll-on before the apex shouldn't have any effect on lean angle. If you have the bike at desired lean, regardless of where the apex is, and you start your roll-on, then you shouldn't generate more lean angle unless you also add pressure to the inside bar.

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Turn the bike, get it to lean angle you want, then roll-on, pick up the bike when appropriate, all is well. If you roll-on at the same time you are steering the bike (adding throttle and adding lean simultaneously) then you're taking a bigger risk. Adding throttle and picking up the bike generally is ok.

 

Roll-on before the apex shouldn't have any effect on lean angle. If you have the bike at desired lean, regardless of where the apex is, and you start your roll-on, then you shouldn't generate more lean angle unless you also add pressure to the inside bar.

 

That's not true is it?

Imagine going round a roundabout.

you start going round, gently accelerate, your knee touches down, you continue to increase speed and your lean angle increases, boot touches down, peg etc.

Basically the faster you go the more lean angle you need to hold a constant radius turn.

In long, constant radius turns to follow the throttle rule you will end up with more lean angle than when you started the corner.

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Turn the bike, get it to lean angle you want, then roll-on, pick up the bike when appropriate, all is well. If you roll-on at the same time you are steering the bike (adding throttle and adding lean simultaneously) then you're taking a bigger risk. Adding throttle and picking up the bike generally is ok.

 

Roll-on before the apex shouldn't have any effect on lean angle. If you have the bike at desired lean, regardless of where the apex is, and you start your roll-on, then you shouldn't generate more lean angle unless you also add pressure to the inside bar.

 

That's not true is it?

Imagine going round a roundabout.

you start going round, gently accelerate, your knee touches down, you continue to increase speed and your lean angle increases, boot touches down, peg etc.

Basically the faster you go the more lean angle you need to hold a constant radius turn.

In long, constant radius turns to follow the throttle rule you will end up with more lean angle than when you started the corner.

 

In your example, if you increase your speed on the circle without adding any steering input, your circle will get larger. You have to actively steer the bike to keep the radius constant. On a properly set up sportbike, rolling on the throttle will not change your lean angle.

 

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That's not true is it?

Imagine going round a roundabout.

you start going round, gently accelerate, your knee touches down, you continue to increase speed and your lean angle increases, boot touches down, peg etc.

Basically the faster you go the more lean angle you need to hold a constant radius turn.

In long, constant radius turns to follow the throttle rule you will end up with more lean angle than when you started the corner.

 

This is a perfect example of when the "Hook Turn" technique is both very useful and easy to apply, by allowing you to tighten your line as you apply more throttle without adding more lean angle, and since you know before hand you will need to tighten your line mid corner you can plan to use it beforehand

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Yeah - I got warned by my coach on that during the 2-Day in Las Vegas... One of the most common reasons for a crash at the school! (Also mentioned in the leaflets given at the end of the day)

 

This was in Turn #13 (CCW), a high speed sweeper!

 

Started to roll on the throttle after the turn in...

 

UNFORTUNATELY, was also ADDING lean angle such that to hit the apex. I was already dragging knee then, essentially, am at the edge of my tires.

 

So, I guess, to rectify that problem was to use start rolling on ONLY when Ive correctly pointed the bike; or have a steering correction by momentarily stopping the roll on...

 

As for the "HOOK TURN," Ive heard that this is taught in L3 - hence know nothing 'bout it. Though was reminded when I again watched TOTW2 DVD - exactly what my coach was doing (when he was leading me on)...

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