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How Do You Transition From Deceleration To Acceleration While Cornerin


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What are your tips for transitioning from deceleration to acceleration while cornering without upsetting the suspension?

 

1) Explain your control inputs during the time since starting to release the brakes until finishing cracking the throttle open.

 

2) How smooth on the suspension have you been able to be?

 

3) Any special advice for the not-so-smooth riders?

 

Some related articles from Keith Code:

 

http://www.motorcycl...h_riding_moves/

 

http://www.motorcycl..._smooth_riding/

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1) I do MOST of my braking straight up , usually in this order > rear, then 0.5S later front ,then rear off , then front off (all within 3 seconds )then reaching the "flick" turn in point.

 

Once the bike touches the turn in point , i do a quick flick while doing maintaining throttle roll /slow off (on downhill or off chamber) / slow on(on uphill or very chambered)

 

2) im not so sure about the front ; the rear, I've been able to keep it at the half to 2/3 length (dirt ring indicator) sweet spot.

 

3) practice practice and practice at 75% of your ability or less !

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I get ALL of my braking done before I initiate turn-in. Some people like to trail brake, I am not one of them. I find that the Ohlins suspension settles the bike VERY quickly after I release the front brake.

 

Once braking is complete, I quick turn to my lean angle. Once I am at my lean angle, I crack the throttle on (and a lot of factors contribute to how aggressive I can be with roll on). However, the initial throttle roll on is an area where I feel some fine tuning of the bike (using PCV, Autotune) will help make the transition smoother. At lower RPMs, my bike tends to be a little "jerky" when the throttle is initially cracked open. I spoke to Will about this and he confirmed that is fairly common and can be tuned out.

 

So that's where I'm at now - installing Autotune to help smooth the transition.

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I don't think I'm fast enough that my comments matter - I only ride on the street and have only experience with bikes carrying basic suspension. Most my actions are abrupt, but I must do something right when braking in corners as I've survived deep trail braking for decades. I can do my braking upright, release and turn in without issues. I can brake through the whole turn - if I messed up/overcome by SR - without issues. I can hit the brakes mid-corner without issues. I have never felt the suspension being upset as I release the brakes. If I trail brake, I always let off progressively, but it's not something I have ever thought about; it just came naturally from my first ride, I believe.

 

I used to be very late back on the throttle and then more or less whacking it open. Now, after 3 years of practice, I barely use the brakes and I hit the throttle the moment I reach max lean. And just as with the brake operation midcorner, my throttle action midcorner is also smooth. It just happens without me putting any attention to it. I suppose it is a "feel" thing, that I subconsciously undertand I must be smooth and gentle if I want to make it since it's not something I need to pay attention to.

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1) I'm at a point where I try to set my entry speed without using the brakes. This requires thinking ahead just a bit. When I use my brakes it is front only. I try to finish all my braking just as I'm turning in. I finish my turn and apply maintainence throttle to my apex then roll the throttle on as I exit the turn.

That was what my brain was telling me I was doing. THEN!!! after 2 trips on the camera bike it appears that I'm a lot later on the throttle exiting the turns than I thought.

2) I would think that I'm easy on my bikes suspension. One has junk suspension from the factory, it really does. Soon to be upgraded. The other bikes suspension has never been serviced and she is 18 years old now. Mind you, I have been slowly working on getting her out of "garage queen" frame of mind. In one year I've put more miles on her than the previous owner did in 13 years.

3)It sounds like the rider is rushing. What causes a rider to rush? Slow down and take a wide view. Relax.

If it is a rough throttle transition, to abrupt, then maybe placing a finger or two on the brake lever would help. That would give the riders hand/brain a reference point to work from. practice, practice, practice

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- installing Autotune to help smooth the transition.

 

OK, this was funny.

 

I learned the hard way what a bad idea it is to initiate turn in when you're still decelerating rapidly and the front tire is loaded, especially on a wet track. The hard way being a broken collarbone. In my case I had a panic reaction and rushed my turn in much earlier than I needed to.

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Jamie01, not sure what is really funny about that comment. A bad tune on a bike can make it a bit twitchy. If sorting the tune on his bike helps, then so be it, I have seen some really whack stuff. I feel the map currently on my bike feels much smoother as far as the hardware goes. Or let me say, I feel "I" can smooth it out with less effort with a tune that matches my riding which allows me to focus on riding rather than the bike.

 

To Lnewqban - Some creative writing that possibly can be applied to your questions. YMMV.

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Lnewqban--have you ever tried just using the front? If at max braking it will lift the rear, how about simplifying your job?
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1) I'm at a point where I try to set my entry speed without using the brakes.

 

Why?

 

As to Lnewqban's original question, I'm with the others:

 

1. I get any deceleration done, by rolling-off and/or braking, BEFORE initiating the turn. I try to avoid avoid trail-braking for the reasons we all know. Maybe this is old-fashioned, but it works for me.

 

2. I get back on the throttle asap after the turn-in (and as "evenly, smoothly, constantly" as I can! :rolleyes: ). This fixes the suspension in that perfect 40/60 suspension loading that we're all aiming for ...

 

3. I hold that throttle thru the turn, and only start accelerating once I've got my exit.

 

So there's no real, 'Transition from Deceleration to Acceleration', while in the turn. Instead it goes:

Decelerate-Hold Steady-Accelerate.

 

And that's the Code way - unless I've got it wrong :blink:

 

HTH

 

Craig

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1) I'm at a point where I try to set my entry speed without using the brakes.

 

Why?

 

As to Lnewqban's original question, I'm with the others:

 

1. I get any deceleration done, by rolling-off and/or braking, BEFORE initiating the turn. I try to avoid avoid trail-braking for the reasons we all know. Maybe this is old-fashioned, but it works for me.

 

2. I get back on the throttle asap after the turn-in (and as "evenly, smoothly, constantly" as I can! :rolleyes: ). This fixes the suspension in that perfect 40/60 suspension loading that we're all aiming for ...

 

3. I hold that throttle thru the turn, and only start accelerating once I've got my exit.

 

So there's no real, 'Transition from Deceleration to Acceleration', while in the turn. Instead it goes:

Decelerate-Hold Steady-Accelerate.

 

And that's the Code way - unless I've got it wrong :blink:

 

HTH

 

Craig

 

I do this too ; just im not good with words :)

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To Lnewqban - Some creative writing that possibly can be applied to your questions. YMMV.

 

Whew! That was a read. My heart is pounding.

 

I have been pretty much trying to set my entry speed early and avoid trail braking altogether, but it feels really unnatural to me. I think I am going to go back to allowing myself to taper off the brakes during turn in. It just seems to save a lot of time, and allows me to control the suspension action better - sort of trading braking forces for cornering forces as I lean the bike in so that the suspension doesn't bob around too much. Otherwise I find I need to coast a bit at my final entry speed once I release the brakes, to let the bike settle before turn in. It's slow.

 

I took a video of my front suspension at the track this week, and it is clear that on my best laps I am turning in on the brakes. Not full on hard braking of course, but still substantial.

 

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1) I'm at a point where I try to set my entry speed without using the brakes.

 

Why?

 

 

The easiest way to answer is, SR#7 along with the occational visit from SR#2.

 

Just a quick personal history lesson from my past. Last year I took lvl's 1 and 2. The no brake drill's were driving me nuts, SR's running wild and free all through my helment. I understood why the school wants students to perform that drill, the benefits, etc...but really had a problem grasping the idea. Since then it has become a regular routine in my riding. I just finished lvl's 3 and 4 and I was looking forward to the no brake drill. I have found that it is a very useful tool.

When braking I have learned that I am applying the brakes too soon and too hard. This leaves me entering the turn too slow.

Could it be that I do not know how fast I could have taken the turn?

How do you determine how fast you can take a turn?

 

Why use the brakes to slow down if you are not going fast enough to need the use of the brakes?

Could you have just rolled off the throttle and made the turn?

I had to resently answer the above two questions!

 

Once I feel comfortable with my entry speed and can consistenly make that turn without using the brakes then I can start working with the brakes to have the entry speed set the same every time. It's like End to Beginning chapter 3 TOTW but only going straight instead.

 

There is plenty to reference in TOTW, TOWT2, and Soft Science.

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Lnewqban--have you ever tried just using the front? If at max braking it will lift the rear, how about simplifying your job?

 

Thank you all, great posts.

Sorry, Cobie, I don't understand your question.

I use only front brake, harder first, softer later, fine-tuning the entry speed.

 

The articles linked in the OP explain the importance of a smooth transition from deceleration to acceleration (transferring weight from front to rear) during the turn (or so I understand):

"Next time you're on your bike thinking of all the smooth moves you'd like to make, think about your Smoothness Quotient and work on upping your score."

"Use of the controls is the mechanical aspect of both riding and racing. Having them all in sequence and correctly timed must be accompanied by getting the amount you use them just right and in proportion with one another. Each action creates force and all forces have some resonant effect on one another. Create harmony with your controls. Smooth is all about catching the resonant wave from your last input."

 

I just wonder what specific techniques everyone uses in order to achieve that.

For short-sharp turns, I cannot do it properly; there is certain jerkiness in that transition (maybe some slack from the transmission, chain, throttle, don't know for sure).

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OK, good to know you are just using the front brake. One thing that might be a small factor in the jerkiness is how much play is in the throttle cable? Adjust so there is very little or none, make sure the bike doesn't rev up when you turn the bars. Then making that transition smooth from off to on with the throttle, take a moment if you need to in order for the that not jerk the bike. Let us know what happens. CF

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To Lnewqban - Some creative writing that possibly can be applied to your questions. YMMV.

 

Whew! That was a read. My heart is pounding.

 

I have been pretty much trying to set my entry speed early and avoid trail braking altogether, but it feels really unnatural to me. I think I am going to go back to allowing myself to taper off the brakes during turn in. It just seems to save a lot of time, and allows me to control the suspension action better - sort of trading braking forces for cornering forces as I lean the bike in so that the suspension doesn't bob around too much. Otherwise I find I need to coast a bit at my final entry speed once I release the brakes, to let the bike settle before turn in. It's slow.

 

I took a video of my front suspension at the track this week, and it is clear that on my best laps I am turning in on the brakes. Not full on hard braking of course, but still substantial.

 

[media]

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imho it looks like your front suspension has way too little rebound damping for that track ... and either a spring thats too strong or too strong compression damping too (or the oil lock if its stock)

 

in your case , Trail braking moves the front suspension into the middle-3rd sweet spot, thats why it seems natural to you~

 

could be fixed by:

 

1) technique (hook turn : more weight to the front , smaller throttle opening , faster quick flick)

 

2) lowering your front (changes geometry thou)

 

3) tuning your suspension (im no expert thou)

 

4) adding ballast to the front of the bike

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The easiest way to answer is, SR#7 along with the occational visit from SR#2. When braking, I have learned that I am applying the brakes too soon and too hard. This leaves me entering the turn too slow.

 

Could it be that I do not know how fast I could have taken the turn?

How do you determine how fast you can take a turn?

 

Once I feel comfortable with my entry speed and can consistently make that turn without using the brakes, then I can start working with the brakes to have the entry speed set the same every time.

 

Thanks for the explanation, ScrmnDuc. OK, I see where you're coming from.

 

That said, my only caution would be to avoid the trap which I see a lot of riders fall into. They stop using their brakes all together when approaching turns! Indeed, for some, it becomes a sign of good riding to NOT use the brakes! Which is crazy ... Instead, they rely on excessively early roll-offs to set their corner entry speeds. And, unsurprisingly, those corner entry speeds don't go up...

 

I leave it for an instructor to say otherwise. But unless I'm mistaken, the benefit - and indeed, purpose - of the "No Brakes" drill is to build your confidence about how much speed you can take into a corner, once you understand what quick counter-steering does. It should be a liberating exercise -"Wow! I can go THAT quick into this turn!".

 

Braking too early/too hard suggests you're not confident about how much speed you can carry at corner entry. So, yeh: Keep up the 'No Brakes' drill. IMO, it's best done on track, because that's where you get the chance to repeatedly tackle the same corner. And it's repetition in an controlled environment that will gradually build your confidence.

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The articles linked in the OP explain the importance of a smooth transition from deceleration to acceleration (transferring weight from front to rear) during the turn (or so I understand)

 

Well, not really by my reading. I suggest that what Keith is talking about being smooth at ALL times, not just when picking up speed or just during turns. But that said ..

 

For short-sharp turns, I cannot do it properly; there is certain jerkiness in that transition (maybe some slack from the transmission, chain, throttle, don't know for sure).

 

Well, short sharp ones always risk being a bit 'snatchy' simply 'cos the time available to do everything is a bit tight. But here's a question which may help get to the bottom of this:

 

What exactly do you feel is not smooth? Is it you, the rider? Or are your actions on the controls super smooth, but the reaction of the bike isn't?

 

If you're not sure which it is, one way to try and pin it down is to run the same tricky turn on a different bike and see what gives. Or loan your bike to another rider and see what he/she thinks.

 

If it IS the bike, then Cobie has already alluded to what might be one potential cause, especially if the bike's fuel-injected: throttle cable adjustment. Or it could also be that your FI system is intrinsically snatchy. Or it may just need some fine tuning. Or maybe your suspension set-ups are off ...

 

Alternatively, if it's you the rider, try and analyse your riding. Which is very hard to do for most of us (it's why we need coaches!); but are you giving the bike time to settle after you release the brake? Are you, for example, careful to release the brake gradually, not in a rush? And are you careful to get that little, little bit of maintenance throttle before opening up?

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imho it looks like your front suspension has way too little rebound damping for that track ... and either a spring thats too strong or too strong compression damping too (or the oil lock if its stock)

 

in your case , Trail braking moves the front suspension into the middle-3rd sweet spot, thats why it seems natural to you~

 

could be fixed by:

 

1) technique (hook turn : more weight to the front , smaller throttle opening , faster quick flick)

 

2) lowering your front (changes geometry thou)

 

3) tuning your suspension (im no expert thou)

 

4) adding ballast to the front of the bike

 

Interesting. I'm actually pretty happy with the way it is working, but perhaps it is just that at my glacial pace I can't detect the deficiencies.

 

I have completely custom suspension - AK-20 cartridges in the front with springs spec'd for my weight, and a Penske rear, also custom built for my bike. I have spent many hours tuning all aspects of it, and both ends have been (fairly) recently serviced.

 

On the two outings so far this year it has done nothing to make me think it needs further adjustment, except that at one point I was using a bit too much front travel and so added a bit of preload.

 

I am sure it is like everything else - right now it works perfectly as far as I can tell, but as I up my pace I will eventually find some aspect of it that needs modification / adjustment. Admittedly the one thing I have never monkeyed with much is the geometry (either fork height or rear ride height), but I like I said I don't currently feel the need.

 

Do you really think the rebound is too fast? That's easy enough to try....I actually really like playing with suspension adjustments, tire pressures etc., but lately I have been concentrating more on my riding per se.

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Thanks, Cobie and Ventodue,

 

Nope, everything is tight: throttle cable play is zero, as well as the sprocket-wheel cushion.

The bike has carburetor, so no fuel injection delay.

 

Good point about the shorter sequence of actions for a sharp corner, Ventodue!

It must be some bad habit of mine.

 

Thanks for the video, YellowDuck!

 

It is very interesting to see the up and down movements of the dust seal respect to the horizon and how high it becomes during accelerations.

That is the real reflection of the pitch changes of the frame and of the changes of the weight distribution.

 

The suspension seems very well adjusted, since the tire follows the irregularities of the track perfectly.

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imho it looks like your front suspension has way too little rebound damping for that track ... and either a spring thats too strong or too strong compression damping too (or the oil lock if its stock)

 

in your case , Trail braking moves the front suspension into the middle-3rd sweet spot, thats why it seems natural to you~

 

could be fixed by:

 

1) technique (hook turn : more weight to the front , smaller throttle opening , faster quick flick)

 

2) lowering your front (changes geometry thou)

 

3) tuning your suspension (im no expert thou)

 

4) adding ballast to the front of the bike

 

Interesting. I'm actually pretty happy with the way it is working, but perhaps it is just that at my glacial pace I can't detect the deficiencies.

 

I have completely custom suspension - AK-20 cartridges in the front with springs spec'd for my weight, and a Penske rear, also custom built for my bike. I have spent many hours tuning all aspects of it, and both ends have been (fairly) recently serviced.

 

On the two outings so far this year it has done nothing to make me think it needs further adjustment, except that at one point I was using a bit too much front travel and so added a bit of preload.

 

I am sure it is like everything else - right now it works perfectly as far as I can tell, but as I up my pace I will eventually find some aspect of it that needs modification / adjustment. Admittedly the one thing I have never monkeyed with much is the geometry (either fork height or rear ride height), but I like I said I don't currently feel the need.

 

Do you really think the rebound is too fast? That's easy enough to try....I actually really like playing with suspension adjustments, tire pressures etc., but lately I have been concentrating more on my riding per se.

 

either too little rebound damping or too little anti wheelie (your front seems to be lifting up waaay too much when under acceleration imho)

 

I might be wrong though , so do take it with a grain of salt ...

 

I do say do try out 1-2 clicks more rebound damping , its the easiest to get back to your original settings if things dont take a turn for the better

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We are talking a lot about suspension settings - but riding style can make a big difference in that area.

 

One point I want to clarify:

What we learn from CSS and Twist II is that the IDEAL scenario is to be tapering off the brakes as you approach your turn point, so that you are letting off the brake as you turn in the bike - that way you trade braking/deceleration forces for turning forces, so that the front end stays compressed throughout. That is NOT the same thing as trail-braking, which involves staying on the brakes past the turn point and farther into the turn - which subjects the tire to BOTH braking and cornering forces simultaneously. Careful timing of the brake release point can help overcome imperfect suspension settings.

 

However, if you brake hard, then fully release the brake BEFORE your turn point, and then turn, you can get the effect of the front compressing, then releasing (rising back up) then compressing again at turn-in, which is an unsettling feeling and can cause the rider to think he/she can't enter the turn any faster. Additionally, it makes the bike's turn-in more sluggish; a compressed front suspension will give a sharper steering response.

 

Perfecting the timing can really help smooth out the ride on turn entries.

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However, if you brake hard, then fully release the brake BEFORE your turn point, and then turn, you can get the effect of the front compressing, then releasing (rising back up) then compressing again at turn-in, which is an unsettling feeling and can cause the rider to think he/she can't enter the turn any faster. Additionally, it makes the bike's turn-in more sluggish; a compressed front suspension will give a sharper steering response.

 

Perfecting the timing can really help smooth out the ride on turn entries.

 

Great point, Hotfoot; thanks!

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We are talking a lot about suspension settings - but riding style can make a big difference in that area.

 

One point I want to clarify:

What we learn from CSS and Twist II is that the IDEAL scenario is to be tapering off the brakes as you approach your turn point, so that you are letting off the brake as you turn in the bike - that way you trade braking/deceleration forces for turning forces, so that the front end stays compressed throughout. That is NOT the same thing as trail-braking, which involves staying on the brakes past the turn point and farther into the turn - which subjects the tire to BOTH braking and cornering forces simultaneously. Careful timing of the brake release point can help overcome imperfect suspension settings.

 

However, if you brake hard, then fully release the brake BEFORE your turn point, and then turn, you can get the effect of the front compressing, then releasing (rising back up) then compressing again at turn-in, which is an unsettling feeling and can cause the rider to think he/she can't enter the turn any faster. Additionally, it makes the bike's turn-in more sluggish; a compressed front suspension will give a sharper steering response.

 

Perfecting the timing can really help smooth out the ride on turn entries.

 

I was confused with trail braking and tapering off, but i guess im much more clear now, thanks! :)

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Trail braking is KEY for fast laptimes around a racetrack. For street riding, if you are trail braking, I personally think that you went in too hot.

 

Definition if trail braking is to trail off the brakes past the entry of the corner. In other words, you will still be using the braked in the initial portion of the corner.

 

Depending on speed and radius, the ratios would change but here is what I think the average corner should look like.

 

1) straight line braking zone before the corner - 100% front brake. (rear tire should be almost skipping off the ground)

2) at initial tip in you start easing off the brakes. As the bike leans more and more as you are entering the corner, you ease of the brakes more. This section I call "corner entry phase" is the first 40% of the corner.

- At the first 10% of the corner you will be at 15% lean angle and 85% front brake.

- at 20% of the corner you will be at 30% lean and 40% front brake

- at 30% of the corner you will be at 40% lean and 20% front brake

-at 39% of the corner you will be at 50% lean (or your max comfort lean) and 1% brake.

-at 40% of the corner you should have the apex in your view infront of you and the exit as well. At which point you may spend about 0-1 seconds OFF throttle NO brakes. Then you start applying the throttle and on you go...

 

The reason I feel trail braking is so important to running fast laptimes is because corner entry phase and corner exit phase are the same. As you exit a corner you should be accelerating towards the coming straight. As you enter a corner, you need to decelerate.

 

Trail braking also improves bike handling if done right. If you apply too much brake pressure for the given lean angle, you may overload the front, slide it, or tuck it. But if you give it just the right amount of brake during the trail braking phase, the geometry of the bike (increase in rake = front lower than the rear) will make the bike turn very nicely. Also - the contact patch on the front tire will be greater and the front will steer very well.

 

Remember, without the front tire gripping, the bike cannot turn. Even if you are leaning the bike, the front tire is crucial to ROTATING the bike in the direction of the turn, just like a car. That front tire MUST hold!

 

The initial reaction if you attempt to trail brake for the first time is that the bike refuses to lean under front brake. This is correct. Front brake stands the bike up, and rear brakes makes it lean over. But if you properly hang off the bike BEFORE tipping into the turn, the bike will REALLY want to turn for you and with just the right amount of front brake, the bike will tip in nicely. If you feel like the bike doesn't want to tip in when you are under trail braking, odds are you are using too much front brake. Trail braking is a very delicate matter. Not more pressure than crushing an empty can of soda I'd say...

 

Good luck and practice this at the track. Not the street. Go enjoy the scenery at the street - nothing to practice there...

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